Behind the role play

[Crizzan]

DM activities do a lot to enhance RP on the world. Besides dealing with players that RP every character the same way, players who complain that "my third level dwarf fighter should have been able to kill that dragon because a dwarf obviously could hide between the dragon's legs to avoid its breath and teeth...", and players that insist they are obvious exceptions to every rule, they also deal with the newbs that need technical advice or guidance on the world of Layonara.
I must say up front that I have had very good experiences in my interactions with the DM personnel of Layonara. They have been helpful (in terms of technical advice), friendly (in RP), and generally work their magic within the rules of the game instead of announcing a deific intervention to simply bypass all rules. In other words, they make the game fun. I included the parenthetical explanations only so people would understand that there is no special treatment involved or expected.

That said, I now move to things behind the role play in the world of Layonara. These involve many categories, but the three general categories most seen by players are:
1. fixed city and town encounter situations
2. fixed quest assignment
3. travel, scenery, and roads

Addressing these in reverse order (simplest first)
3. Scenery is generally good to excellent. Some in game maps are blank or minimal, probably due to ongoing construction/reconstruction. Road signs would be a huge help for new players. I've been placing markers on maps, but I wonder if that affects server response time, since dropped items do. Please do not refer me to the maps in LORE. Due to the nature of cartography, those will never be up to date unless the world becomes static.

2. Fixed quest assignment.
Two things would be helpful. First, an assigned quest journal entry should include more than a one sentence description. "Get five swords of singing for Prince Valiant" doesn't help if you have no idea where you can find Prince Valiant or the swords he wants. A better entry would be "Get five swords of singing from the bleak marshes for Prince Valiant of Port Hempstead." Granted, I may not know where the bleak marshes are or be able to retrieve the swords, but my journal would contain enough information about the quest that I can see it after gaining a few dozen levels, realize I am right next to the bleak marshes anyway, and get Prince Valiant his swords, then know I have to travel to Hempstead to deliver them instead of searching Alindor fruitlessly for Prince Valiant.
Second, some indication of difficulty or level limitation should apply. Asking a first level character to deliver a package to Fred is no issue... unless the recipient is an evil ancient red dragon that just happens to be named Fred and loves to eat package delivery people. I would normally say rats, goblins, and kobolds are no issue unless in great numbers, but all such creatures found in Layonara seem to have been born on Krypton and migrated with Superman.... (I assume that was done to deal with uber players, but there are better and easier ways to deal with uber players that don't eliminate the new players. Another explanation would be that the idea is to encourage party role play, assuming that low level characters would always choose to party with high level characters, hang back, and just rack up the experience. If you want the world designed for high level characters, start the characters at high level. If you want a world that accommodates all levels, it should do that. Uber characters that get no experience for slaughtering goblins will look for harder quests until the DM leads them merrily into a confrontation where they are surrounded by packs of uber creatures....)

1. fixed city and town encounter situations. Stores, people, and things (trash barrels, etc.): Generally well done. However, there is no excuse for any "pawnbroker" running out of cash. Think about it: A pawnbroker buys things at prices well below wholesale. Stores in town, crafters, and other NPC in the town need goods. Since items sold to many pawnbrokers do not stay in their inventory for later purchase (especially in Port Hempstead), they go somewhere. Where? Skins end up in the leather armor bought from a store, other components in the many other things sold. If you really wanted to get creative, if a PC sells the pawnbroker fifty pounds of salt and a hundred shanks of venison, stores could have sales on salted venison....
There should be no worry about encouraging trade between PC characters. Who in their right mind would sell amethyst dust at one True if a PC were offering fifty? If an insane PC did that, some shop owner would soon be selling amethyst dust at fifty. As far as PC shopkeepers go -although I've yet to encounter any outside the Leringard Inn- if they keep shop hours posted with a list of things desired and things sold, then keep to those shop hours, they should operate a successful business. If they spend all their time on things other than business, they will experience what shop owners like that always experience. Operating the shop will be more costly than the income produced. There's a reason most shop owners do not spend most of their time sky-diving or traveling the world. This would encourage players to think through character choices and deal with the results.

One other small suggestion: The server seems to require all first level characters to start in either Vehl or Hempstead. To encourage party play at low levels, a fixed meeting place that is clearly marked would help. It could be designed like an inn or simple podium. Either would work. It should be restricted to some level, perhaps ten or lower, and drop the character off the list once that level is exceeded.
Interaction would be limited to sign up, update, review announcements, make announcement, or list characters.

Sign up automatically enters the character name and level on the roster, then asks "when are you usually available?" Ask about weekdays. Allow direct input of times (such as 2:00 to 4:00 PM or selection of preset time slots.) Next step is selection of GMT offset. Repeat for weekends. (no need to repeat GMT offset)

update - change times, just going through time question again.

review announcements - see list of people seeking to create parties for adventure

Make announcement - Type something like "I want to form a party to gather saliva from bog monsters." Character times available woud be automatically appended.
(optionally, could also show up in all logged on low level characters' dialogue boxes with originating character's portrait so a reply could be made by tell.)

list characters would lead to two choices:
list all generates a quick list showing name, lvl, time usually available.
list available lists those now on the system

[LordCove]

1)  I would normally say rats, goblins, and kobolds are no issue unless in great numbers, but all such creatures found in Layonara seem to have been born on Krypton and migrated with Superman....

2)Sign up automatically enters the character name and level on the roster, then asks "when are you usually available?" Ask about weekdays. Allow direct input of times update - change times, just going through time question again.

For 1) ... heh... I couldn't help chuckle at that. But yes.... done to ensure people dont just go off solo'ing and wracking in XP with minimum RP. Plus... not much of a challenge if you can solo everywhere yourself. Would defeat the purpose of Partying up.

2) Events Calendar and General Discussion posts.
I used to use the Player Events section a lot awhile back, and got a lot of response to the point we had weekly "jaunts".. eventually leading to a Guild being made.
Or... use the General discussion post... put something on up like " Exploring in an hour ... starting in Hempy"... for example.

Just a hint. But some interesting points.

[aragwen]

Thanks for the well thought out and worded post. I will try to comment on some of the things as I am sure others will as well.
 
 

3. travel, scenery, and roads

 
 Some ingame maps are blank due to the fact that certain tilesets produce blank maps for some reason. Furtermore only city maps usually have markers on and not other areas. Also adding you own markers onto map wont be a problem except that they are not retain across server restarts. So all your work of placing markers will be lost on the next server reset. As far as road signs go I think that has got to do with the setting of Layonara, with different kingdoms and so, I dont think anyone in the world have decided to start placing road signs. So the lack of road signs are a representation of the world setting in my opinion. The easiest way to get to know the lay of the land is travel with others who know the land and then from an OOC perspective just keep your own personal notes, wether that be on a piece of paper or in your journal.
 
 

2. fixed quest assignment

 
 I am not saying all quest descriptions are perfect but perhaps some information is also left out to encourage people to interact with other PC's to find the necesary clues to solving the quests. Furthermore static quests are mostly only available to the appropriate level of character. In other words if you PC is not experienced enough the Quest giver wont provide you with a quest. Also quest givers are scattered over the world and different areas. Once a PC is in an area which is appropriate for his level he would find the quest giver and then get the quest. Just bearing in mind that static quests are mainly there to get new PC's started and dry up considerably later in levels.
 
 Now another thing to take into consideration is that Layonara is build around the concept of parties. Not necesary high level and low level combined parties but rather parties of the same level. So doing a quest alone (solo) would most likely be impossible but joining with 2-3 other of equal or similiar level would make the quest easy.
 
 Also the world is divided in areas meant for different levels. The areas close to the starting areas meant for the low new levels and then venturing further away would require more experienced and higher level characters. So if you facing uber characters then in all likelihood it is due to the fact that you travelling alone or are finding yourself in an area meant for higher levels. Once again you may ask how to know where to travel and this could be answered by saying travel with others always making the risks smaller or find someone to show you around. One example springs to mind and that is the Stormcrest Guides. Asking them to show you around would do a lot to get to know the land.
 
 Also most people no matter the level would be happy to show you around if you ask IC and with RP.
 
 

1. fixed city and town encounter situations

 
 The reason why pawn brokers run out of cash is cause people sell to many things to them. It also represents the lack of funds in the world during and after the darkness. Your best way is to sell things to other PC's who require them or donate to temples or merely dont pick them up if not needed.
 
 As far as PC merchants go, there are quite a number that exist but they mostly trade in the forums under the trade and market hall. The reasoning behind not keeping shop hours is that everyone is here for a bit of fun and standing in a shop for even an hour without customers gets boring quite quick. So people tend to advertise on the forums and then meet ingame to conclude the transactions.
 
 As far as the one common meeting place, well Hempstead at the fountains seem to be one like that, as well as Stormcrest Crossroads. The inboard game thing is a nice idea but the forums could serve the exact same purpose. You could post there asking for groups and even post your own player driven event on the calendar.
 
 I hope that answers some of your questions and please feel free to post on the forums asking for help IC and OOC. You would be surprised how many might step up to help your character finds it feet in the world.

[Crizzan]

Thanks for the input.
Some points don't seem to be clear. Let's try elucidating. I have no problem finding characters that will show me around or explain quests.
Indeed, it is not uncommon to meet another beginning character that can tell me exactly how a quest must be resolved, what will be encountered, and where I must go. Often, this beginning character will also have (exaggeration) armor +46, sword of slaying, cloak of invisibility, and the ability to implode enemies at a glance. When asked, they explain that their parents gave them a few things. On the other hand, most characters I meet in game are much higher level characters that will gladly accompany me, complete the quests for me, and let me gather the experience often with little to no RP.
Notice! These are in addition to those characters that RP well, don't know more than a char their level should, try to limit their aid to advice and protection, and are still helpful. If your ego bruises easily, read the above as pertaining to somebody else.
As far as uber creatures and quest level assignments go, check out quests given in Port Hempstead and Vehl to beginning characters, then put together a group of 3-6 level one to six characters with level one to six equipment (in this game, generally no magic weapons, few would have much protective gear) and try going on these quests. I particularly suggest body snatching in Vehl and the kobold stick in Port Hempstead. Even with the help of higher level characters with excellent equipment, the stick was (is because the stick never appeared) near impossible to survive. Without magic weapons, body snatching one body resulted in a battle that lasted almost an hour and required more than a dozen cure moderate potions... although I was foolish enough to think this was something I coould do alone during hours when very few people were on the server...
(that part was definitely my fault, but finding things to do at times when there are few other people on the server is tough).

[Crizzan]

Re-reading my lasrt post, I noticed I left some things out. Adding them to that post would diminish the points it contains, so here are the other things:
Aha! now I understand the no road signs and blank maps. Thanks for the explanation.

It would be OOC for my character to donate anything to a temple. I guess that's why there are trash cans.

Doh! Where else should I look for a forum but the forums?

Frankly waiting around the crossroads usually yields visions of endless peaceful scenery, although there is an occasional sighting of a character flitting past. Waiting around Hempstead fountain works when there are many others on the server.

[Gulnyr]

It would be OOC for my character to donate anything to a temple. I guess that's why there are trash cans.

There is a non-temple donation choice available through the Foundation, if your character would donate to a non-religious charity.  The donation point, 108 Port Hempstead, is near the docks.

[Falonthas]

in regards to the fancy equipment, there is one guild who does go out of their way to help new adventurers by selling on credit and then you pay as you go

yes some of the newbie quests are made to implement interaction and not for soloing, while others are just that, delivery of a letter or parcel

the delivery ones i read once are to show the new player around the beginning isles
as long as you stick to the roads you wont have any troubles
and the hint you were asking about with the five swords of valiant representation
you can examine the tag on the parcel or letter and it tells you the general location
then its up to you

the pawn shops are there for quick dumps for minimal coin,and when their coffer is empty actually its like the shop is closed
until they get rid of all the things they bought*i.e. a server reset*
then with fresh funds from sold goods then they can buy up the little oddities that noone wants until the cycle does it again

back to the guild with credit
they also use some things you may have collected so those items would help you pay your bill as well
 or may ask for a specific thing that a new player can get without much harm to his low level char

just remember the isles are very large and just because you saw something in one place doesnt mean its not someplace else where its reachable for lvl 1's

[Crizzan]

Now that I've been playing a (short) while...

Yes, there are characters that buy and sell things. Yes, you can occasionally hook up in game or via the forums (if you can both arrange to be online at the same time.)

As far as role play goes, such transactions usually involve no more role play than any merchandising transactions. Let's not confuse character interaction with role play.

Interaction:

C1: "I have the oak you wanted. Do you have the bow?"
C2: "I have the bow."
They trade and go their ways.

Although some see this as role play, it is extraneous to the story and brings both characters away from other tasks/situations that interest them more. The simple fact that no character stands about for hours minding a store, crafting house, or inn shows that there is really no interest in such "role play."

Suggest creation of a (or more) market hall in game. It would be operated by NPC store clerks.
Players with items to sell offer those to an NPC buyer. The buyer has lists of things other players want, quantities desired, and prices offered (discounted ten percent, so the NPC makes a living.) Those prices are good only until the requested quantity is met. For items not currently in demand, the NPC should offer 30% less than the minimum accepted sale price. Yes, that includes crafted items. (Sometimes, it just doesn't pay to craft too many of one thing...)
Players wanting to buy items in stock (including components) would visit the appropriate NPC seller. (Things transfer here from the buyer.)  Prices are established per the asking price, although things in overstock might be discounted ten percent (reflecting the 30% reduction in price paid.)

This eliminates having to try to find characters in game during hours when there are few; interrupting quests, adventures, and other role play for merchant transactions; and having to cart about bits and pieces of things that do nothing but weigh down your character's pack. Frankly, there are few things worth carting about in this manner for the sake of someone else's crafting.

If you don't want to establish a seperate facility for this, consider having the existing mercants buy such things at discount. The crafting merchant could buy raw materials by the piece, other merchants could buy crafted products. If the price offered is less than a PC thinks is deserved due to the difficulty of crafting an item or gaining the materials, that PC could hold out for more by keeping those chests crammed with oak bows and requiring appointments for sales.

This would also reduce in game storage requirements. Instead of a PC keeping a chest containing forty bows, an NPC shopkeeper's inventory need show only one bow with a count on number available. Crafting can be its own reward, but merchandising is and always has been hard and generally tedious work.

Special orders would still be special orders. Those require interaction on the message boards and in game meetings for trade.

[Riven]

I like the idea of a PC market hall with many booths owned by PC's.

Maybe PC's can rent a booth and an NPC to man the booth.
PC puts his salable resources or items in the inventory of the shop, and decides the price (or the price is set).
Other PC's can learn about the shop and goods form the PC, but while he's out exploring or adventuring, not minding the store. The other PC's can then  come visit the shop, see the sign of who's shop it is, and potentially purchase things from the NPC manning the shop.

If Player interaction is the sole reason to not have a pc market hall, and continue having a rather unrealistic pawn shop that pays hardly anything for items, then consider that there will be plenty of PC interaction when the merchant meets new folks, or old folks, and he tells them of the wares they can find in his shop, back at town. Or he takes an order in person from someone, and tells them to check his shop in three days.

[Falonthas]

you can buy things from npc merchants now

but if you want anything good you have to go to a PC

thats what drives the world economy

[Weeblie]

It has been suggested multiple times before to implement a NPC item selling system and it has been rejected before also. I do not foresee that change now either. While a NPC system has its pros and cons, it has been decided it's not really what we wishes to have. The said RP reason being a heavily contributing reason for that.

While, as you say, there are certain times when neither of the players in such a trade wishes to do a very in-depth RP interaction for it, it certainily isn't true as a universal case. To put it bluntly... doing that is the loss of the two players involved. I've both been part of prolonged interactions from something as simple as a sale and also watched such moments. An "I want to buy a bow" encounter isn't unheard of having turned towards an hour long event.

Another heavily contributing reason for the "better" NPC shops' nonexistence and also the reason behind the very weak gold output from Pawn Shops is world economy. If the said places payed for as much as the crafted items are worth, or rather in the same order of magnitude, the world would soon be flooded with money. Even such a thing as doubling the gold dropped from loot has proven to give a noticeable effect on the economy... Selling crafted items to NPCs for about their original cost would most likely put all prices up by an order of 10 to 100. An example is my own character who could trivially and effortlessly craft items that are considered worth in about 15,000 gold each. In just matters of a day or two, she could then bypass the richest people on the server. Can she do that right now? Well... she do manage to sell those things from time to time... but a general answer is a no... because the demand of those items are far, far lower than what she can supply.

[darkstorme]

Although some see this as role play, it is extraneous to the story and brings both characters away from other tasks/situations that interest them more. The simple fact that no character stands about for hours minding a store, crafting house, or inn shows that there is really no interest in such "role play."

While I take your point, I also ask whether you've been to the Orc Bashers, Leringard Arms, or Weary Traveller on a Friday afternoon, EST - given that in all three, there ARE people "minding the store".  (The Leringard Arms is also a great place to drop in for a snack or dinner, too.)

Suggest creation of a (or more) market hall in game. It would be operated by NPC store clerks.
Players with items to sell offer those to an NPC buyer. The buyer has lists of things other players want, quantities desired, and prices offered (discounted ten percent, so the NPC makes a living.) Those prices are good only until the requested quantity is met. For items not currently in demand, the NPC should offer 30% less than the minimum accepted sale price. Yes, that includes crafted items. (Sometimes, it just doesn't pay to craft too many of one thing...)
Players wanting to buy items in stock (including components) would visit the appropriate NPC seller. (Things transfer here from the buyer.)  Prices are established per the asking price, although things in overstock might be discounted ten percent (reflecting the 30% reduction in price paid.)

As Weeblie said, this has been suggested, and also as he said, the reason it's been rejected (and will likely continue to be so) is because any competent crafter could then become instantly rich, if the markdown isn't (as it is with the Pawn Shops) 99%.  Many items that are (to even a 10th level character) easily craftable are valued by the game as being worth many thousands of gold.  At a 30% markdown, they'd still be worth thousands of gold.  At a 30% markdown beyond an initial 50% markdown by the merchants, they'd still be... etc.  To instigate a system like this would result in a) the instant flooding of the merchants with crafted items, and b) the ruination of the already inflation-prone Layonara economy.  If you introduced an "item cap" to the merchants, as with the pawn shop gold limit, you'd get a rush on the vendors when the server was reset.. and then it would be as if the merchants didn't exist, again, since no one would be able to sell anything to them.  There simply is no apparent mechanical solution to this problem.

(That being said, I could support a 99% markdown on purchase price, and, say, a 300% markup on selling price.  That would leave items available for purchase that people could get without working through PC sellers - but at a ruinous cost, and it would drain money OUT of the economy.)

... and having to cart about bits and pieces of things that do nothing but weigh down your character's pack. Frankly, there are few things worth carting about in this manner for the sake of someone else's crafting.

So why carry it?  Many character get by without ever crafting anything.  If you don't like it... well, don't.

If you don't want to establish a separate facility for this, consider having the existing merchants buy such things at discount. The crafting merchant could buy raw materials by the piece, other merchants could buy crafted products.

The pawn shop owner already buys raw materials on a piece-by-piece basis.  As for the discount - well, see above tirade on the ruination of the in-game economy.

This would also reduce in game storage requirements. Instead of a PC keeping a chest containing forty bows, an NPC shopkeeper's inventory need show only one bow with a count on number available.

Actually, when it comes to in-house storage, there's really not much difference.  Objects are compressed into entries in databases up to the moment that the chest is opened.  Likewise, a dynamic merchant's inventory would be a database entry (or a table unto itself) until it was accessed.  The question then becomes, "Which is accessed more often?"  While such a system might mitigate the need for PCs to own more storage, it would not likely aid things mechanically.

It's a neat idea, don't get me wrong - but it's hardly the first time it's come up... and while it would be neat to implement, until ways are found to deal with the flood of gold into an already inflation-prone economy, it can't, reasonably, happen.

[Crizzan]

Good reply. Now I understand the reasoning. I'll get to work on the economy issues before I think about suggesting this again. Like you said, it is a good idea except for that problem.

[EdTheKet]

Actually, we had a market hall with NPC vendors which were "rented" by players and who would sell items on their behalf.
Unfortunately, they were abused (people using them as extra storage space, or selling things too cheap, etc.) and they caused lag. Because of the abuse, we removed them.