Bindstones and Suicide

[Acacea]

I wanted to comment again on this topic, without also hijacking the previous thread again. There were questions that appeared valid with no answers given, and while I understand that reasons are hard to give in that sort of situation ("what do you mean why? It just is!"), asking "You mean you don't know?" is not an acceptable response.

The question posed was essentially, if the bindstones are truly an in-character system that saves someone from death repeatedly, why is committing suicide to get out of dire circumstances so unacceptable for a character willing to do it? This gets horror from a lot of people because it's not cool, but why?

The bindstones are not solely an out-of-character system, and thus characters will have IC opinions of them drawn from experiences. Do people respect death far less than they should? Yes. Is that an in-character opinion for some people? Also yes.

On the surface, it is not actually that big of a leap for some characters to go, "I've come back a thousand times already, and getting out of this situation is worth it."

It's hard for many people to respond to this line of thought, because ...wait, it has happened a thousand times. All they know is that it's poor taste and really just plain not cool. And it's not. But why isn't it?



Consider what the bindstones actually do for your character. When in danger and fighting (for your life? For your cause?), your soul is saved at the moment of your death--with cost to it--and with it you are reformed at where you were bound.

What is the difference with suicide? It is knowingly, consciously, deliberately ending your own life and welcoming death. It is a choice.

For someone who makes that choice, there should be no respawn, and probably no raising. In game terms this would be an insta-perm, no matter how little respect for death a character might have. Charging brashly into overwhelming odds still usually has a purpose, and almost all situations leading to death serve some reason, involve at least some protection and care for one's life--suicide is a blatant "take me" to the Soul Mother.

And so she will, or should. One could argue a lot about this I'm sure, but the fact remains that using the bindstone express as a suicide route is not a good thing, and the blatant difference between being killed by circumstances and actually choosing death seems to speak for itself.



Apologies for creating a new thread just for this branch of another, but I don't like seeing questions go by without at least some attempt at an answer. I am not a GM and do not speak for the team or Leanthar--I'm sharing my own observations that seem clear to me but will not necessarily be shared by others. Hope they made sense to somebody.

[Leanthar]

"....For someone who makes that choice, there should be no respawn, and probably no raising. In game terms this would be an insta-perm, no matter how little respect for death a character might have...."

Exactly correct.

[Fatherchaos]

As serious as this issue is, I laughed at the "bindstone express" and suddenly thought of a zombie filled subway.

That aside, good points all around. I'd say if a character was truely in such a situation as to think about purchasing a ticket for the bindstone express, they should at least do so with purpose, or get perm'd. E.g. Trapped underground by a monsterous army? Give them a last defiant charge, with full intentions of hacking your way to freedom. If you get cut down and respawn, then it was because your death had a purpose and your character sought life and freedom at all costs. It may have been a "suicidal run" but I'd surmise that the character was still seeking life, rather than asking to be a Hero McNugget for the Soul Mother.

Not all of our characters are the Nameless one afterall (Planescape Torment reference) so squeezing through a crack to goo yourself up to life on the other side is most likely, not an option

[osxmallard]

There is no difference in ending your life (i.e. suicide) and charging blindly into overwhelming odds knowing you will get killed.  They both have the same outcome and you should wind up at the bindstone either way.

This is equivalent to the RL "suicide by cop".

[Eorendil]

The difference is in how the character choses to die, not simply the game mechanics. If you're cornered and there's no other solution a person that fights like a possessed badger, knowing that he will likely die, should return. Someone that turns and throws themselves on their own blade before the enemy could.. well.. meh.. be a good candidate for perm. I don't believe you should return simply because you will yourself to and want to avoid death or torture at the hand of the enemy. That makes it too nice and clean... in a way. And, for the faithful of some religions that choice of suicide might not be a choice their god appreciates in the long term.
  Think of it this way. Fighting insurmountable odds isn't like giving up or acquiescing.. unless that is your sole intent to sacrifice yourself for some reason and even then there are valid reasons for such actions depending on belief, etc. Caighd has 'sacrificed' himself several times to buy a group time to prepare for a fight or save someone's life. Anyway, turning on your own blade is like clicking or not unclicking those boxes on internet forms that allow them to share your information so you can be bombarded with SPAM... Except, in this case, the box reads "I give up... and all that that implies."
  At least, that's the way it would seem to me. My opinion, I know.

[Fatherchaos]

Oxxmallard: I don't mean to niggle, but giving it your all in a desperate charge is a tad different from suicide by cop in my oppinion. On one hand, yes the odds are insurmountable (e.g. killing Sinthar Bloodstone) but you don't get anywhere without the effort, even if it looks impossible. On the other hand, e.g. charging with the intentions of getting cut down, is intentional suicide with the desire to have someone else do the work for you.

While somewhat similar, I believe both situations differ in respect to the characters intentions. And I doubt that a stalwart Voraxian or Toranite would just toss themself to the grinder, unless they intended to give said grinder a really good thrashing. Their intentions are to fight against the odds and win, even knowning there is a good chance that they will be struck down.

So, I suspect that the intentions behind the action are the most important. Did the character just give up and lunge at the guard for a quick death? Or did the character realize the situation was potentially hopeless, and refused to give up, and lunged at the guard. Hopefully you can see what I'm attempting to convey.

[SuperMunch]

I see the Bindstone Express as evil, it's necessary for the game mechanics but an excuse for some bad roleplaying.

The "I'll be back" mentality is dangerous as it breeds folks that do stupid things for no fear of risk. "We're level 8, let's go to firesteep, if I die it's alright, I'm bound here in Hlint" - I remember having that mentality only once during my near 7 months of playing and I still don't like what I did.

Each death should be considered a very bad thing, not a gamble with the soul mother nor a joy ride.

That said, I won't complain about the death system on Layonara for, in the immortal words of Tolkien, "Many that live deserve death.  And some that die deserve life.  Can you give it to them?  Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

However, I do have a position on suicide.

I think that suicide should be graciously rewarded with the loss of soul strands, at the very, very least, or instant perming.  The Soul Mother would sense the willing surrender of life and would obviously sieze upon the chance to feast.

Of course this would be a hard thing to do with scripting but if on a quest or under a GM's eye, it is perfectly possible to be done.

[FlameStrike]

No worries, as people near higher levels they -will- fear every and each death knowing the chance for a DT increases.

 Sure, we had very low level people perming so fast, but at highes levels things are much more different and the Bindstone Express stops getting those usual passengers

[Ne'er]

First off, I really do not like the bindstones. In single player, I almost always reload the game instead of hitting the respawn button, just cause the whole respawn concept seems dumb to me. However, I do understand why we need the bindstones, as it would be impossible to get anywhere if we did not. However, I much prefer to be raised by a cleric.

Now, I know of only one caharacter that has killed herself, and she is permed out because of it. Now I believe that was the intention of the player when she performed the deed, however it only seems to make sense. It seems like one thing that would have the bindstone call you back is because you still have some purpose out there in the world. If you don't have that purpose in the world anymore, then I imagine you get to become soul mother chow. At the least I think a soul strand loss should be in order, and possibly even an xp loss. After all, as was stated above it seems like the soul mother would have a holiday if she found people willingly killing themselves and it would make sense for there to be such a penalty.

Now, lets say a character still wanted to commit suicide, I played a single player mod where a Will Save was in oder if the character wanted to kill themselves. In that game, there were reasons as there were certain things that could only be done in the death realm. However, I think it only makes sense that any character that wants to kill themself should have to make a will save. Afterall, a weak-willed character would be more likely to cling to their life, where a strong willed character would be able to throw aside the need to live in order to escape from tremendous pain, revealing information, or just to keep from dishonoring their family.

As it stands now, I really don't like the idea that a suicide goes without any added penalties. After all, the character wants to die. Make them at least feel a bit of that death for the rest of their days.

[FlameStrike]

I believe the difference between the person that charges to his own death and the other that just somehow ends his/her own life, is that the one that charges does so with the intention of dying with some meaning, but always thinking there might be a chance of survival, divine intervention or something, it's like a leap of faith, you either succeed or die trying.

 On the other hand, the person that just ends his/her own life, well, just does it, everything ends there and that's it.

 In the end, the one that charged perhaps had more to give in life, but the circumstances dictated he'd stop there, but commiting suicide is something that is voluntary and doesn't exactly give the idea there was anything more that person wanted to do in life. Yes, i am aware that there are many circumstances that lead to suicide, this is my view on how thing are seen in a fantasy world such as Layonara.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

In understand the views of the team and the playerbase (and share them, for all points brought up), but I do have one question.

Let's assume you're not facing enemies, or torture, or anything that anyone would DO to your character. Let's assume your character has gotten his or herself into a situation where, if they don't somehow get out of an inescapable situation, they'll be trapped for all eternity. Understandably, this CAN'T happen outside of quests, and even in quests, I don't think there's a DM who would essentially perm a character out if they had more than one soul strand left. However! For the sake of this point, let's think about that situation.

No doors, no windows, no teleportation magic, no POSSIBLE hope of escape... Or wait. What about those bindstones, that have always brought you back before? Being trapped here won't kill you, but... Maybe a knife would?

This is just a situation where I can't see any other options, from the character's eyes. Anyone have input?

[Dorganath]

Uhm...since your scenario, by your own admission, can't happen, whether on a quest or not....isn't it a non-question? Let's break things down a bit.
  - If, as part of a quest, your character finds himself/herself in a situation which is inconvenient, traps the character in some way, or otherwise prevents unassisted egress from said situation, consider that it just may be part of the quest as a whole, and if such a situation does occur, that perhaps there is a purpose, and sticking around to see where the story goes just might be a good thing. In otherwords, when a GM has the reigns, see where he/she is trying to take you before hitting the eject button.
  - If, due to game mechanics, crash or whatever, you find your character stuck behind a barrier that cannot be breached through game mechanics in any way, ask for help from a GM. The game does make mistakes....we can help. Really.
  - If, as part of an adventuring excursion, you find yourself as the last remaining survivor of the group and are now at the bottom of Nasty Dungeon #7 with absolutely no hope of reaching the top solo, consider that your group may, just may, mount a rescue for you when you don't show up at the bindstone with the rest of everyone else.
  In other words, there are always other options.
  I'm not going to get into the psychological motivations behind suicide in RL. That's way beyond the scope of this discussion, I think. But in-game, there are always options. Always, always, always.....
  ....especially when a GM is present.
  And just to throw in my personal commentary regarding purposefully dying to escape a situation...if you want to take that chance through normal gaming, I'd say go right ahead and gamble with the Soul Mother. However, to do so during a GM-driven quest is very much bad form, and in my opinion, shows a disregard for the effort and planning that the GM went through, it shows a lack of patience in not being able to see things through to their logical conclusions (even if they don't seem obvious at the time) and it shows a bit of an immature need to always prevail through the use of an "I win" mechanism. To put some PnP spin on things, if someone were to try this in a PnP adventure, the GM would make sure that the NPCs would have measures in place to prevent such a thing. However, in NWN, game mechanics take hold before a GM could react adequately. As such, your character ends up doing something that's probably very OOC for him/her because you the player are metagaming and taking advantage of game mechanics.
  Again, that's my personal opinion and should not be construed as the official policy of Layonara.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, the only way a character could kill themselves directly is with RP and the help of a DM (assuming they're a non-spellcaster), but...

Which is more metagaming? The "there simply MUST be a way out of here, because the DM put me here" idea, or the "let's see if the Soul Mother won't eat me if I try those Bindstones that have saved me every other time" bit? You're right, the point is moot, but the second reasoning is more plausible RP, even though... Well, the first one really is true, more or less. (You may not get out of there without a few horrible horrible things happening, but you'll EVENTUALLY be able to play again. *Chuckles.*)

I really have to agree with your other points, both game-related and otherwise; the comment regarding the scope of this discussion in particular got a strong "yes" out of me.

Anyhow, my questions are answered, as they really only applied to a reasonably specific set of circumstances. Thanks!