Haggling

[AeonBlues]

Often when my character is selling items, other characters are trying to talk down the price.  I require good roll playing, and an appraise or persuade check before I make a reasonable deduction.  My question is:  What is the correct roll to oppose these?  Also, would appraise require a different defense roll then persuade?

AeonBlues

[merlin34baseball]

A thought...  INT, smart enought to see through the persuasion?
Just a thought, or a persude check back on the counter offer?

[Nehetsrev]

Charisma might also be a factor, as a charismatic character might be able to sway someone in favor of themselves with the strength of their personality.

[Etinfall]

pursuade vs lore? that might work.

Etinfall

[AeonBlues]

What about a Will save?  Also I like WIS against Persuade, and INT or Apraise against apraise.  I like the persuade counter offer idea.  Would make good role play, and good to use when some one is asking for something rediculous.

With so many options it would be hard to not pick one that fits my fancy.  I think good ethics requires concistancy here.

Aeon

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Appraise, Lore, Bluff, Persuade, Raw INT... Whatever is most appropriate to the current situation. For example...  Pyyran: These Bracers of Scouts can prove invaluable... The darkness they can throw, combined with the Camouflage spell that can be activated, have saved me time and again. I'll ask 2500. Ne'er: Hm... *Appraise Check, arbitrary DC* *Success!* They are rather common, though; certainly not worth that much, and to a jeweler? I'll never make use of them. Pyyran: Ah, but they also provide excellent protection for your arms, equivalent to, say, a buckler. Surely you'll find that helpful. *Persuade Check.* Ne'er: *Opposed Persuade, OR INT, OR Lore, OR a Wisdom check, depending on how the character thinks* *Failure.* You do pose a good point... Still, 2500 seems a bit much. Will you accept 2000? Pyyran: Certainly; I only hope they serve you well.  Please don't lynch me for having my character out-barter yours, Admiral Silver.

[Fatherchaos]

I find this a bit of a conundrum to have such an arbitrary system of resisting actions made by one player onto another. Are there any rules that outline this for the 3e/d20 system? I play Hackmaster, which is considered the tongue in cheek yet serious 4e, and for any particular skill set there is usually a clearly defined way to oppose it; if such an opposition is possible by another player. I ask this only because this has occured twice now with my own character and due to my lack of knowledge to the 3e skill sets I was at a loss as to proper procedures at that point. Often times when I am unsure, I rely on the 1-1 ratio. If someone bluffs me, I do an equivalent bluff roll to recognize or neutralize it, etc. Its proven a good rule of thumb in unfamiliar systems. Persuade gets an opposed persuade, etc. Though addmitably, this is more of a failsafe than a 'correct' way of doing things.

Needless to say, I've been around since the red & blue books, 1st, 2nd, some third, and lots of 4th, so I'm used to some form of commonality for skill use & resistance, etc.

Now, to throw a wrench into the whole mess, character RP appears to be the only true and correct solution to this. If someone is attempting to persuade my rather stubborn and addled character Dur, I apply my concept of his character to see if he would be persuaded, rather than resort to rolling the virtual dice. Of course, there are times when such a thing may be necessary, such as determining if Dur really saw someone sneak past or not. However, thus far that has been handled directly by the NWN game mechanics.

I'd really appreciate some input into this. And Stephen, please don't take this as I'm tossing out your idea all together, I'm just trying to clarify this for myself as much as possible so I know what to expect. If I could be pointed to a specific rule book, chapter, etc., that would greatly alleviate the majority of my questions.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Oh, I agree in full, Fatherchaos; the real answer to this isn't any sort of skill roll. The answer is in appropriate character RP. If someone tries to bluff my character, but Pyyran just doesn't want to believe it, no matter how believable the lie may be, Pyyran's NOT going to believe it. Haggling... Why roll dice unless you're lieing? There's honestly not much haggling to be done on Layo - prices are reasonably well-defined by the trading companies, and the most haggling to be done is in how much barter will be offered (using "barter" in the sense of "stuff to trade" rather than the action).

Just offering dice possibilities for those who love the random element, and who've asked.

[Gulnyr]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/22/2006  9:26 PM

One thing I DON'T support is a Will Save. Will Saves are for resisting MAGICAL or SUPERNATURAL influences - basically someone clouding your mind so you can't see past something. It's the seeing past it that you're trying for now, NOT fighting off a descending fog in your head. This is another reason I HATE when people roll Will saves against Bluff. An opposed Bluff roll, or a raw WIS check, or even Gather Information are all more appropriate.

Per page 120 of the D&D 3.0 Player's Handbook:

Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence and domination as well as many magical effects.

First, note that 'magical effects' is tacked onto the end of the sentence without a word like 'other' attached to it, clearly distinguishing them from 'mental influence and domination.'  Now consider that Bluffing is an attempt to influence someone's thinking, and is therefore 'mental influence.'  Still, since Sense Motive, the official counter to Bluff, is not part of NWN, the default would be to treat it as an untrained skill.  Zero ranks in Sense Motive is a Wisdom check, since Sense Motive is a Wisdom-based skill.  I don't disagree with the conclusion, just the thought that got you there.

Gather Information is totally wrong for any kind of counter-haggle check, though.  Gather Information is a skill used to learn rumors and make contacts, and operates over an evening of carousing at the pub buying rounds and listening to gossip.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Will Saves, Wisdom checks, and Sense Motive: My reasoning was more along the lines of "Strength of will might allow you to throw off magical effects, or simply hold to your position, but actually DETECTING a lie in particular is not something that would factor into this particular aspect of a character." Wisdom raw, on the other hand, is how perceptive you are, so... *Shrugs.* That works.

Anyhow. Gather Information: The GI roll would be a generic roll much like Lore, as a substitution for the Knowledge skill. It would basically represent your previous surveys of the area regarding the economy and pricing, just as Lore represents what you have learned through use of the Gather Information skill in the past, as well as your personal experiences.

The skills in NWN generally have to be quite flexible, as the things that we would be using in PnP don't exist in NWN.

[Gulnyr]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/22/2006  10:40 PM
Gather Information: The GI roll would be a generic roll much like Lore, as a substitution for the Knowledge skill. It would basically represent your previous surveys of the area regarding the economy and pricing, just as Lore represents what you have learned through use of the Gather Information skill in the past, as well as your personal experiences.

I don't understand.  Gather Information 'represent your previous surveys,' and Lore represents 'use of the Gather Information skill in the past.'  Wouldn't 'previous surveys' by definition be 'in the past', and therefore fall under Lore according to your argument?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

To put it simply...

Pretty much, yeah.

The tough part with having the skills be so flexible is that many of them tend to overlap.

[AeonBlues]

I doubt anyone could convince me that lore or gather info would ever be the correct oposed skill check for apraise and persuade.

I think in the future I just will allways  either counter persuade, or use a WIS or INT for an oposed skill roll.

I don't see anyone else sugesting a Will save, so I won't use that one.
Aeon

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Appraise couldn't be used by the seller to try convincing the other guy to buy high, if the seller already knows all the properties of the item.

As for Lore and GI... Let me put it this way.

If the buyer knows more about the item and its worth, the better-equipped he'll be when determining how much he should pay for it.

For example, let's say I wanted to buy a car. First thing I'd do is take 20 on Gather Information to find out the factory price of the car I'm interested in, as well as EVERYTHING else that could possibly be known about that car. When I get to the dealership, I am armed with all of that knowledge, and the person trying to sell me that car for twice what it's really worth is going to get laughed at.

To shift this to Layo... Let's assume Tyeaan's Bracers of the Scouts were stolen. Now, he's had a pair of the things before, so he knows just what they do, and how useful they are (or aren't). So, when Pyyran tries to sell him another set for WELL over what they're really worth, Tyeaan will know this.

For the rolls, you can either simulate the earlier search for information (Gather Information), or you can simply roll for what you know (Lore).

However, that's only one possible way to play it, so... *Shrugs.* Go with what you like.

[Gulnyr]

Let's talk about the flexibility a little.

First, the rules can only be bent so much before they break.  Just because an argument can be made that a certain skill can be used in a situation doesn't mean it should be used.  I could argue that Discipline is a fair counter to Bluff, and it would be as justified and convincing as the argument for Gather Information.  Both would still be out-of-line, though.

Second, why be flexible with skill rolls and not with save rolls?  If Gather Information can be changed from a night-long, coin-spending event to an immediate, no-cost haggle, then surely a Will save could be used to represent potential skill ranks in Sense Motive, were that skill available.

By admission, Gather Information (Cha) defaults to Lore (Int) in the counter-Bluff scenario above, and neither are close the default Wisdom check.  The only reason to use Gather Information would be because that skill has a better chance at a high roll, either because of a better Charisma modifier than Intelligence or Wisdom modifier, more ranks in the skill, or both.  If we are going to use rule flexibility to gain the best roll, then a Will save should be chosen over a Wisdom check.  Or maybe it would be more advantageous to use a Spot roll (you see a nervous tick associated with the Bluff), a Listen roll (you hear a change in the pitch of their voice), or maybe even Disable Device (give me a minute and I'll think of something).

I agree we have to be flexible and imaginative to plug some of the holes left by the omission of certain skills from NWN, but we can't be so flexible we toss just anything into those holes.  In the end, though, I suppose it comes down to the people haggling which checks are allowed.

[Faldred]

One other thing to note when doing opposed checks... any modifiers should be considered, and agreed upon, before the checks happen.  Straight opposed checks usually are to the advantage of someone who maxes out a particular skill, and don't take circumstances into account.  In the "haggling" scenario, things like the following should be considered:

Racial factors: an elf trying to haggle with a drawf would (in general) receive a -5 penalty -- a drow or orc would receive a -10
Past history: one party "owes" the other (whether money or a favor) yields a bonus to the one "owed" character proportional to the "debt"; or a known "whiner" may not find an agreeable audience
Current history: is there an IC reason that the seller might be in a generous (buyer +5) or stingy (buyer -5) mood?
Seller's incentive: Is the seller trying to raise cash in a hurry (seller -5) or can (s)he afford to hold out for a good offer (seller +5)?
etc.
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