Learning Elven...RP excuses vs. RP reasons – Food for thought

[DMOE]

I have noticed that it is amazing just how many non-elves get taught elven by elven PCs...

I can’t help but wonder why?

Elves, even non-grey elves are by their very nature.....arrogant

Yes, you can argue that adventuring elves are much less so but they were STILL brought up as elves, they will have still been taught to look down on the 'lesser’ races during their childhoods.

So why are they happy to teach their musical and beautiful language to those lesser races?

Before some bright spark says...”so X can understand me” X being a friend, lover, husband, pet dog...

You BOTH speak COMMON....you already have a SHARED language....why do they need to learn elven to understand you?

I’m not saying that all those who have taught elven have done so for daft reasons, I’m just saying that elves are a little arrogant, so why the heck would they be sharing their language so much?

I mean, it’s kinda like the Jewish community teaching everyone Yiddish.

NB....I mean no offence to Jews or non-Jews, it was just the first example I could think of.

So basically.....if you’re thinking of teaching elven, for the love of chocolate can you stop, think and check it has a sound RP REASON for your character to do so.  Why is your elf happy to share their language with a non elf they can simply speak common to?

Now...I am not trying to have a go at anyone who has taught elven to others....I’m just trying to raise the point that the elven race is an arrogant one....I’m sure those on Ed The Ket’s present quest will back me up on this.  As such, people need to be remembering their heritage in situations like this.

It’s not quite the same as everyone loving Drow and Orc’s on sight, but it is something that should be considered.

I know, that each application has to be approved....But the Character approvers have to walk a fine line between ensuring the integrity of the world and that people have fun and let’s be honest, none of us (including myself) is above pointing at someone else’s submission and saying “How come they got it and I didn’t” as such, I just want people to think and take a little responsibility for the integrity of the world onto themselves for such things

[miltonyorkcastle]

I don't know about anyone else,  but my characters usually have to pay with money or service to learn another language.

DMOE's point is valid, however, and not just for elves. Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings.... your racial language is part of what makes you special, part of your heritage. It should not be given away lightly, and certainly not for free (whether the payment is money, or the long term building of trust between two good friends). Not to mention, you'd hate to have your own language used against you... you might be teaching an enemy and never know it.

On the flip side, I don't see any problem with the majority of adventurers speaking Elven or any other special language. Smart adventurers will learn as many languages as they are able, in many cases by accident, as they tend to travel far and wide and touch many cultures. Also, adventurers are the minority, by far, so even if the majority of adventurers speak Elven, Dwarven, or Yiddish, that doesn't mean that the language has suddenly become widespread to the general population.

[osxmallard]

I agree.  With the amount of people that speak elven or are taught elven IG, elven should be a COMMON language and granted to all PC's.

[Drizzlin]

For the very same reason the Japanese created an entire language and writting for non japanese speakers. For the very same reason that when I travel to Japan, so many know how to speak english, but refuse to do it.

I can easily see an elf wanting others to learn their way of speaking because the elf see themself as being too good to "speak" a lesser language.

How many Americans study second languages in school and still expect everyone who comes here to speak English?

Now please keep in mind I am simply giving another side to this and these are not necessarily my point of views. So keep the flames to a minimum please =)

[Acacea]

Regarding the last post, many are actually usually offended at attempts to speak their language, because the majority of non-elves murder it compared to native speakers, and they are a race that loves beauty as a part of life. Whenever I approve or stand behind an approval of elven and it has been a relatively...human amount of time, I generally make it a point to say that they are still learning and are not the equal of native speakers, but rather speak a surface elven. Elves have centuries to speak it, and generations of centuries for it to evolve - Acacea has always been very good with picking up on means of communication and began learning the fundamentals of elven almost six decades ago and the actual speaking of it for four, and she still always has more to learn.

She is very good with it because she's good at catching inflection and differences in tone, but even fluently speaks different from say, a wood elf. In her case, the difference is not a poor accent or hillbilly grasp of words, but just that particular inflections reflect the very different people who taught her. So not a 'halfling' accent, but rather... a wood elven accent, a sun elven accent, a wild elven accent, Voltrexian, Dregarian, etc. Not mangled, just very subtle differences in inflection or pronunciation depending on what she is saying.

The elves got around the whole refusing to speak Common thing by simply not allowing other people on their Island, ever, save for extraordinary circumstances (which would usually involve an elven speaker in the first place). There! That took care of that problem. I expect that the loosening of the restricted travel has created a period of transition for the elves, as now humans and dwarves can visit the elven isle and speak not a word of their language. Not really wise to do so, but they will do it anyway. Teach more elven and debase the language, or debase themselves and speak more Common? Those who embrace the latter will probably find more business opportunities, at the least, but before it was opened there was no reason for everyone to speak it on Voltrex, which is their equivalent of the home nation, hehe.

Even very young and very friendly human-loving elves may refuse the teaching, laughing and slapping their human companion on the shoulder and telling them not to murder his mother's tongue with their poor human mouth. Can you teach a pig to dance in a month, friend? No more can I teach you in a mere twenty turns what I have spoken since your grandmother was a twinkle in your ancestor's eye!* And then the human would train a pig in secret and gift it to the elf in a month's time and show him how it danced, and the elf would laugh and say "But can you teach the bear to sing?..." and thus would begin the road to laughing acquiescence... or something. What is the fun of the easy way, anyway?


I think it's impossible to properly represent the amount of time it should take to really speak the elven language well, because who wants a requirement that is a RL year or more? So there is probably a middle line somewhere, of making it less ridiculously easy, but still achievable without effort of herculean proportions. It would most likely just involve a slight increase of effort required for the language, a more conscious approach with players of elven characters in to whom they choose to bestow the gift of their language (because that is what it is), and a general understanding that it will take even longer still to really be considered a fluent speaker.


*Many elves can be charming and friendly and beautiful, alluring until they make some comment about you having your great grand mother's eyes. Then they are just queer and most shorter lived races never quite get over the time issue, friendship or no... indeed, friendship makes it even harder, as does love, since it will pass so soon for the elves. One who loves the short lived races too well only receives the dubious gift of watching small, bright lives burn and flicker out in what is only a passing of a season to him, over and over again. For some, it is worth it... for most... not so. More likely, or less, to teach their mother tongue and hear it from their lips only a scant few years before it is gone?

[jrizz]

Wren is one of those arrogant elves He will not teach the language and when a non elf speaks to him in elven he tends to answer in common to show his disdain. But I as a player have no issues with it as long as it is for a good RP reason. With that said, it is my opinion that there are only a few good RP reasons for it and this:

”so X can understand me” X being a friend, lover, husband, pet dog

is not one of them. Here is a list of some good reasons:

Bards - So they can both transmit and pick up new stories.
Ancestral bonds - Those of thin elven blood wanting to get in touch with their roots.
Clerics - Non-elven clerics of elven gods.

[lonnarin]

I agree, elves are arrogant.  Dwarves should be allowed to kill them all on sight!

W00T, Pwnage!

Seriously though, elves teach everybody their language because its so cute to listen to the lesser ape-beings stumble through the consenants, butchering the context of the message.  The human thinks he's asking for more wine, but he's really saying "put a cork in me, I have bubbles" at the dinner table.  There's little worry about the humans spreading said language, since they cycle through pet humans so often in a lifetime hey may as well be house-cats to them.  It just makes it easier to train them if they can understand "Get off the sofa you varmant!" without having to speak in their gutteral grunts and oogas.

Even if a human spent 50 years trying to master the nuances and bylaws of elven grammar, he'd have just mastered it to the extent of a 8-year old child, in elven society.  Considering humans rarely live past to be 70, it would be fairly easy to determing who is just a polymorphed spy without him being one of the most gifted linguist minds in all the world.

So I suspect that elves teach humans elven much the same way we teach a parrot to ask for a cracker or a dog to bark "rie rove roo!" It amuses them.  Since the humans speaking elven all sound like toddler elves, it fulfills their maternal/paternal instincts in having a little child around them to ask them to tell them stories of the adventurers they had hundreds of years before the little tykes were born.  And if humans weren't so obese and bulky, the elves would bounce them on their knee as well.

On that note, gnomes really enjoy teaching everybody else math.  It is their passion.  I open up my door and there are like 20 little munchkins with abbaci and slate boards waiting for me every morning when I wake up.  Fie on trigonometry, I say!  Sucks to your Calculus!

[Pseudonym]

I mostly agree that elven is taught too liberally.

I mostly disagree that

"so X can understand me" X being a friend, lover, husband, pet dog

is not a valid reason. Yeah, sure you can both speak common to each other but .. but .. to be able to speak your friend's, your lover's, your husband's native tongue is another way to share between two people, another way to deepen a bond, another way to understand, to increase the area of intersection (to borrow from lonn's gnomish example) between two friends, lovers, husbands. ie. they don't teach you elven so you can understand their language, they teach you elven so that you can understand them.

Excluding grey and sun elves, I can find references in LORE to elves being proud and aloof but not arrogant. Pride in one's achievements or one's race's achievements doesn't necessarily equal an assumed position or claim of superiority. Being aloof doesn't always have to be because they deem other races as unworthy of their attention or proximity (though maybe it is in this case). Maybe it is just erroneously perceived as arrogance?

[Gulnyr]

Seriously though, elves teach everybody their language because its so cute to listen to the lesser ape-beings stumble through the consenants, butchering the context of the message.  The human thinks he's asking for more wine, but he's really saying "put a cork in me, I have bubbles" at the dinner table.  

Of all the races, I think Elves (of any type) are exactly the sort who wouldn't do this, generally speaking.  Maybe a Shadonite Elf... and I'm sure there are some 'Human-tainted' or 'Gnome-humored' Elves around.

Obviously, we're all humans playing a game, so we only have human concepts and ideas to go on.  But in-game, we aren't supposed to be imagining what we would do, but what our characters would do.  We should be trying to roleplay and embrace the ideals and cultures that make our characters real people rather than just 'better-able' versions of ourselves in fancy new skins.  It's easy to fall back on our own thoughts and reactions, and everyone does to one degree or another, so no foul on that.  It's just important to remember that as much as the races are alike, there are differences beyond mechanical modifiers that matter and shouldn't be overlooked.

[Falonthas]

i did this in reverse with drogo where he had to learn common, but after 4 ig years he picked it up enough to get by with some words still seemingly strange

just happened that the ones who helped teach him common or human as he called it learn a bunch of elven at the same time

[jrizz]

*looks up at Pseud's post" You romantic devil you

[Script Wrecked]

... and began learning the fundamentals of elven almost six decades ago and the actual speaking of it for four, and she still always has more to learn.

Even if a human spent 50 years trying to master the nuances and bylaws of elven grammar, he'd have just mastered it to the extent of a 8-year old child, in elven society.

It seems these two points give some insight into the amount of effort required to teach and to learn elven (elvish/elfish/elfen). Something to ponder/consider/bare in mind...

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Drizzlin]

Regarding the last post, many are actually usually offended at attempts to speak their language, because the majority of non-elves murder it compared to native speakers, and they are a race that loves beauty as a part of life. Whenever I approve or stand behind an approval of elven and it has been a relatively...human amount of time, I generally make it a point to say that they are still learning and are not the equal of native speakers, but rather speak a surface elven. Elves have centuries to speak it, and generations of centuries for it to evolve - Acacea has always been very good with picking up on means of communication and began learning the fundamentals of elven almost six decades ago and the actual speaking of it for four, and she still always has more to learn.

She is very good with it because she's good at catching inflection and differences in tone, but even fluently speaks different from say, a wood elf. In her case, the difference is not a poor accent or hillbilly grasp of words, but just that particular inflections reflect the very different people who taught her. So not a 'halfling' accent, but rather... a wood elven accent, a sun elven accent, a wild elven accent, Voltrexian, Dregarian, etc. Not mangled, just very subtle differences in inflection or pronunciation depending on what she is saying.

The elves got around the whole refusing to speak Common thing by simply not allowing other people on their Island, ever, save for extraordinary circumstances (which would usually involve an elven speaker in the first place). There! That took care of that problem. I expect that the loosening of the restricted travel has created a period of transition for the elves, as now humans and dwarves can visit the elven isle and speak not a word of their language. Not really wise to do so, but they will do it anyway. Teach more elven and debase the language, or debase themselves and speak more Common? Those who embrace the latter will probably find more business opportunities, at the least, but before it was opened there was no reason for everyone to speak it on Voltrex, which is their equivalent of the home nation, hehe.

Even very young and very friendly human-loving elves may refuse the teaching, laughing and slapping their human companion on the shoulder and telling them not to murder his mother's tongue with their poor human mouth. Can you teach a pig to dance in a month, friend? No more can I teach you in a mere twenty turns what I have spoken since your grandmother was a twinkle in your ancestor's eye!* And then the human would train a pig in secret and gift it to the elf in a month's time and show him how it danced, and the elf would laugh and say "But can you teach the bear to sing?..." and thus would begin the road to laughing acquiescence... or something. What is the fun of the easy way, anyway?


I think it's impossible to properly represent the amount of time it should take to really speak the elven language well, because who wants a requirement that is a RL year or more? So there is probably a middle line somewhere, of making it less ridiculously easy, but still achievable without effort of herculean proportions. It would most likely just involve a slight increase of effort required for the language, a more conscious approach with players of elven characters in to whom they choose to bestow the gift of their language (because that is what it is), and a general understanding that it will take even longer still to really be considered a fluent speaker.


*Many elves can be charming and friendly and beautiful, alluring until they make some comment about you having your great grand mother's eyes. Then they are just queer and most shorter lived races never quite get over the time issue, friendship or no... indeed, friendship makes it even harder, as does love, since it will pass so soon for the elves. One who loves the short lived races too well only receives the dubious gift of watching small, bright lives burn and flicker out in what is only a passing of a season to him, over and over again. For some, it is worth it... for most... not so. More likely, or less, to teach their mother tongue and hear it from their lips only a scant few years before it is gone?

I really don't want to turn this into some kind of argument and debate something like this with you. It seems you have your mind made up on the way something as simple as a language should be, rather than the facts on exactly how easy it is to learn a language. Are there hard languages? Yes. Does it say anywhere that the elven language is some brutal and impossible language to master that takes hundreds of years for an elf to learn before they can even begin to communicate with each other? No. It simply says that the elven language is filled with beauty.

The elven language is no more complicated for someone to learn in a D&D setting than english is for a non english speaking person. If you know anything at all about languages you won't even begin to try and debate this. Languages are rated at the academic level 1 to 5. Spanish & french are considered a 1, while Russian, English, and any of the asian lanugages are a 5. There are more level 5 languages and within that the level 5 languages are ordered in difficultiy as well. It has to do with the language you speak as well as if you are having to learn a completely new writting system.

I speak english, japanese and spanish rather fluently. My japanese is fading as the years pass due to lack of practice =P. I have a friend who speaks 8 different languages fluently.

Again you look at the pcs in the world of layonara and forget that they are the 1%. There are mass amounts of NPCs who do not speak elven. While I agree that an elf shouldn't and wouldn't simply run out and open schools for teaching elven, but if they did, a child would learn it as easy as they would learn their common native tongue. The only way they would have an accent of any sort, is if they spoke another language first, and even then it would simply depened on how long they have been speaking their native language.

The older you get the harder it becomes to learn languages, or should I say they do not come as easily. This has to do with the development of the brain at an early age. I can go into that for hours =P. This is why if you want your child to be bilingual, you should start them as young as possible.

Either way, you have to use some common sense with this and some things in game are not to far off from real life. In fact the game is based off real life with the changes needed to make it our own world. Any language in game, that uses a human vocal box, can be learned by another humanoid race with ease.

The rules are bent of course for druids, rangers and their ability to speak to animals. Which again is a change made to make our world our own.

I would also bet it is not to hard to find books on various languages throughout the world that one could simply pick up and study to learn a language. Again a concept that is not to hard to grasp. You can go buy a book anywhere and learn to read and write a language and translate it from your own.

Edit: I kind of got off a bit on this post when responding to you Acacea and I appologise if it seems more directed at you or mean. I didn't intend for it to be. I also wanted to note that the post below this by me more addresses the rest of what I wanted to say =P. You can't forget that a humans racial ability is to learn in a short time what it takes the longer living races a decades and centuries to master.

If anything it is the human that stands back and laughs at the elf for the simple fact that in 1 year they mastered what took that elf 40 years to do. Of course the elf can laugh last and remind the human he has another 40 years tops to enjoy his "mastered" craft, while the elf will have enough 400 years to play with his. =P

[Drizzlin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acacea  
... and began learning the fundamentals of elven almost six decades ago and the actual speaking of it for four, and she still always has more to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonnarin  
Even if a human spent 50 years trying to master the nuances and bylaws of elven grammar, he'd have just mastered it to the extent of a 8-year old child, in elven society.

It seems these two points give some insight into the amount of effort required to teach and to learn elven (elvish/elfish/elfen). Something to ponder/consider/bare in mind...

It seems these two points give some insight into the amount of effort required to teach and to learn elven (elvish/elfish/elfen). Something to ponder/consider/bare in mind...

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Actually these statements are far from being accurate or even remotely in line with D&D or LORE within Layo. In fact if you read up on humans, they receive their extra skill point each level due to their ability to master skills in a faster period of time than the longer living races. What takes a human a year to learn, can take other races decades, even centuries to master.

There is a reason that an elf, who has lived 400 years, is hardly as powerful as a human of 40 years. Elves look at time differently.  Do not get me wrong, that elf could be as powerful or even more, however that is not the norm. If a human lived 400 years, they would be far more poweful than that 800 year elf on average.

There is a reason why humans are not penalized for multi classing, while subraces have restrictions due to their inablity to to master multiple things throughout their life when compared to a human.

[Script Wrecked]

Actually these statements are far from being accurate or even remotely in line with D&D or LORE within Layo.

Perhaps a statement of clarification from the powers-that-be(tm) of what is and what is not would be beneficial in regard to this matter. Simply, how long (how much effort) does it take to learn each of the languages, and to what level (poor/passible/good/fluent/native/wordsmith).

Once we are all on the same page about how hard it is to learn a language, we would be able to discuss DMOE's original point from a common standpoint.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Pseudonym]

I'm interested to see this clarification too!

A bit of googling shows a lot of (nerdy) people have been able to grasp Tolkien's elvish language - Quenya - in about 6-12 months or so. Maybe there has been something that indicates Layo-elvish is considerably more complex?  *waits for Ed*

[miltonyorkcastle]

As long as this thread stays civil, I'm very much looking forward to the commentary to come. Both Acacea and Drizzlin hold up valuable points that pertain to the races. I'm personally all for empowering the short-lived but tenacious humans, yet I must concede that a race with the heritage of the Elves could create a language far more complicated and nuanced than any language we could conceive on this earth. Of course, then we get into "used" and classic versions of such a language, which would mean that the common elf doesn't actually access the full extent of the language, especially not when spoken. OR maybe every elf always uses the full extent of the language. Maybe they don't ever par it down. More things to ponder until L or Ed gives the final word.

[Drizzlin]

I'm interested to see this clarification too!

A bit of googling shows a lot of (nerdy) people have been able to grasp Tolkien's elvish language - Quenya - in about 6-12 months or so. Maybe there has been something that indicates Layo-elvish is considerably more complex?  *waits for Ed*

LoL yep...or the Klingon language for the Star Trek Fans!

We have to keep in mind that Layo was built off of D&D rules. Leanther has stated this many times. Layonara was created by him and his friends sitting at a table playing PnP D&D. They followed D&D rules and created a new world and made it their own.

DMs created worlds all the time using D&D rule settings and then change what they want to fit their vision of their world. Unless changed, or some kind of Lore to make these changes, you use D&D core rules. Which we are bound by when it comes to combat for example.

I know you want a clarification ect, and I love to hear them from the staff who put the time into creating this world. However without that, a good rule of thumb is that when it comes to rules on how something works, look in 3.0 (which is what NWN is based on) and then recheck LORE for any possible changes to those rules. This is especially true when trying to figure how a skill or spell works. To balance the world a lot of changes over time have been done to these here in Layo.

If you don't see any chagnes, then use the core D&D 3.0 rules on how a language works, how a skill works, how a dice check would work, or how races are.

Now please don't take this as a check the D&D book and then ignore LORE at all. As I said, LORE has all the changes and countless hours of work put into it by the team to tweak D&D 3.0 rules and bring to life Layonara.

[Drizzlin]

As long as this thread stays civil, I'm very much looking forward to the commentary to come. Both Acacea and Drizzlin hold up valuable points that pertain to the races. I'm personally all for empowering the short-lived but tenacious humans, yet I must concede that a race with the heritage of the Elves could create a language far more complicated and nuanced than any language we could conceive on this earth. Of course, then we get into "used" and classic versions of such a language, which would mean that the common elf doesn't actually access the full extent of the language, especially not when spoken. OR maybe every elf always uses the full extent of the language. Maybe they don't ever par it down. More things to ponder until L or Ed gives the final word.

You know I was just sitting upstairs reading a book and it is about drow =P The 3rd book about Grumph's daughter (I Know the series is horrible and it has taken me 3 years to finsih this one book!) and there was a part in it where the Drow is masked as a elf under illusion. The children meet her and are asking all kinds of questions. Each child is about 12 to 8 and the Drow is amazed that they are even talking.

Without directly quoting the book she thinks to herself that it is amazing that at such an age they are speaking, when the children of her race at that age would still be spending hours upon hours a day learing to speak properly and it would take them 30 years to be as keen as the human children.

Which going off of the Forgotten Realms serious and RA Salvatorie, that is how the Drow are. They spend the first 90 years of their lives growing up at the age of 90 go off to begin their training as warriors, priests, or wizards. At the age of 90, they are no more capable than a human the age of 13.

Of course their are racial customs, abilites, that make them different, but on a learning curve, the human at 13 is every bit what the dark elf is at 90.

If elves were given no draw backs and all the benifits that humans receive (Like their ability to learn skills faster, master trades and arts) then the worlds would be nothing but elfs.

The reason humans dominate the races, is ther ability to reproduce and have a fresh army of seasoned and skilled warriors, mages, clerics ect in a time span of 20 to 30 years, when it would take an elven society hundred of years to reproduce such a force. Again this is why D&D (the same rules we follow) gave humans +1 skill point per level, an extra feat at level 1, and no penalty on multi classing.

Of course we are not even touching the other races in this discussion. The dwarves are better than the elves on the fast learning curve, but still behind humans.

[ycleption]

a race with the heritage of the Elves could create a language far more complicated and nuanced than any language we could conceive on this earth.

Remember that the difficulties in learning a new language are not so much any inherent complexities about a given language, but the differences between languages you know, and languages you are trying to learn. People learn Tolkienien Elven and Klingon relatively quickly because their creators didn't make the languages incredibly differently than english. Given layo history, it is conceivable that Layo Elven is as alien a language as something from a Borges story, or it could be substantially more similar...
Eh... I could go on for a while about language stuff, but I'll restrain myself and stop here, ;-) a lot of good points have been made though.