Author Topic: PvP - Getting Hit Mechanically vs. Realistically/RP-Wise (Read 1358 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #40 on:** February 01, 2008, 12:21:36 pm »

Several things.

First, Hellblazer. FRODO. Thank you.

Second, ABSTRACT SYSTEM. Realistically, it only takes one really good knock from a sword to kill a man - sink the blade in his skull, and he dies. The animations in NWN don't reflect this - because Bioware are stooges.

Hit Points don't just measure how many times you've been hit how hard... They do represent, as Gulnyr explained marvelously well, dodging, parrying, etc. (I don't think the Parry skill should exist either, but that's another issue.)

A "hit" doesn't mean you're actually hit. A critical hit usually does, but even that's not a guarantee. If you've got two hundred hitpoints, and some commoner double-twenties you for a whole six points of damage, he's still not going to hit you - just come really close. Might actually take some effort for you to avoid the stabbity stab.

For example, Pyyran vs. Shiff. Shiff comes at Pyyran full-force, and Pyyran ends up looking a lot like Spiderman, ducking and dodging about as he desperately tries to avoid getting chopped in half by that big [ahem]ing sword. But then Shiff, being a true master of the Greatsword he is, nails our beloved swashbuckler, and even with the shnifty cobalt-spun clothes, knocks Pyyran across the arena and smashes bones. Pyyran gets up, sort of, wanting to at least touch Shiff before going down, but only manages a weak thrust which is deflected by the Striker's fullplate before getting whalloped again.

Sure, Shiff lost some hitpoints. Did Pyyran really touch him? No. Did Shiff touch P through the first three-quarters of the Swashbuckler's HP? Not really.

Three, mainly for Ed:

From what I understand about how magic works in Layo (that is, a steward deity grants access to magic through a framework), magic WOULD be draining, or at least straining, on most casters. Wizards, who prepare their spells beforehand, and release the mostly-cast spells with a final command, would probably feel a bit tired after preparing spells, at least mentally, but would just as likely feel relieved after actually casting the final trigger as the spell is wiped from their mind. A sorcerer, on the other hand, is expending a very direct effort when casting spells, so would very likely feel drained as they went through spells-per-day. Clerics might need to concentrate to channel the power of their deities, but I imagine it would require less effort than arcanists for most spells.

So, to conclude, yes, I think spellcasting should most definitely have some effect on casters... If, admittedly, not so much as it might for casters not working in a universe where magic is shepherded so well by a matron deity.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #41 on:** February 01, 2008, 12:45:41 pm »

Err why did I think freldo for some reason...

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #42 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:08:59 pm »

Freldo is/was a bard who played here; for a time, the proprieter of the Leilon Arms. Bardbarian sort, lady's man, dressed all in light blue. He actually had Rain's head model. Freldo Jabutica... Miss that guy.

Weeblie · « **Reply #43 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:10:25 pm »

Per D&D definition, a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. HP doesn't symbolize jumping around and parrying as that's the job of AC (we disregard the fact that NWN has the presence of a parry-skill). The job of AC also to tell "you were hit on the armor, but it didn't penetrate your armor, nor did the force of impact hurt you in any meaningful way". That's also why touch attacks ignore armor AC... Oh... A critical hit means that you were hit something "bad". Like on the head.

The higher level HP progression is primary shown as your character's ability to "hold on" and "take the hits hit at less vital locations" (example being a light slash on one's arm compared with the sword cutting into the bones of one's arm). Would a level 20 character die if he had his throat cut... just like a level 1 character? Certainily! That's why D&D have the massive damage and the coup de grace rule.

NWN has unfortunately not (really) implemented the last two things (for balancing reasons?) which makes the NWN model even more flawed than before. Heh... even the standard D&D mindset of heavier armor only giving extra AC (turning hits to misses) is kind of unrealistic. A common varation is to have heavier armor give extra physical resistance instead...

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #44 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:16:14 pm »

Actually, Weeblie (though, regrettably, my work blocks D20srd.org, so I can't give you a link), the D20 HP system IS abstract - a hit is not always a hit, and a miss is not always a miss. I believe this is covered, if not in the Player's Handbook, in the DMG.

Again, I'm sorry for not being able to provide a link - it's not exactly helpful to my stance. xD But, work is work. And I'm doing precious little of that...

Weeblie · « **Reply #45 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:30:01 pm »

While the D&D system is abstract, you have abstracted it a little bit too far. :p

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #46 on:** February 01, 2008, 01:35:37 pm »

I can't really effectively argue that without being able to provided canon in defense of my stance.

All I can really say is...

Nuh-uh!

Hellblazer · « **Reply #47 on:** February 01, 2008, 02:10:26 pm »

Quote from: Stephen_Zuckerman

Freldo is/was a bard who played here; for a time, the proprieter of the Leilon Arms. Bardbarian sort, lady's man, dressed all in light blue. He actually had Rain's head model. Freldo Jabutica... Miss that guy.

Oh i do know who freldo was, i just don't know why I wrote his name instead of frodo.:\

Nehetsrev · « **Reply #48 on:** February 01, 2008, 02:25:26 pm »

Quote from: Hellblazer

Oh i do know who freldo was, i just don't know why I wrote his name instead of frodo.:\\

*smirks playfully* I could be mean and say something like "Freudian slip", but that would be mean, so I won't say it.

In advance, I'm posting this comment as a joke, it is not meant to be a personal attack. Please regard it as an attempt at humor between friends(even if it really isn't that funny, or is it?).

EDIT - For further clarification: I'm in a wonky mood today, so don't take this post seriously. Can't explain why I posted it, or even thought it'd be remotely funny, but I did...so laugh if it makes you laugh, but don't take it personal if it doesn't. Does that make sense?

LightlyFrosted · « **Reply #49 on:** February 01, 2008, 02:51:19 pm »

Well, if you're going by some of the older stuff..
Gygax included in HP such things as luck, divine favour, etcetera. Also, the reason strength was added to you THAC0 was that you were trying to damage someone THROUGH their armour, so go figure.

Of course, this was also the fellow who came up with the Fusion theory of spell components, so let's not go crazy here.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #50 on:** February 01, 2008, 02:53:24 pm »

bat guano +

= Fireball?

LightlyFrosted · « **Reply #51 on:** February 01, 2008, 03:14:05 pm »

It's a little off-topic, but..
The idea was that components to the spell were exchanged with their 'equal amount of positive energy from the positive energy plane', which then went on to be shaped by the caster's acts of will into the spell in question. If there were no physical components, it was the air that the caster breathed when giving the verbal components.

See, apparently every item in the physical world contains a certain amount of potential positive energy, and...

Well, you get the idea.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #52 on:** February 01, 2008, 03:29:58 pm »

My thought was that it was a sort of focus. Like many faith/energy healers today, along with various astrologers and the like, use crystals, incense, tarot cards, etc. Only, with the stronger effect, there's a more dire need for the focus, and once you learn it that way, you have an incredibly difficult time doing it any other way (a-la WoT).

In the case of Fireball, the guano is in tiny balls, which burn and explode (though only with heat, not force) when thrown at the target. It DOES take a Ranged Touch Attack to get it through Concealing terrain, for example.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #53 on:** February 01, 2008, 03:37:52 pm »

Quote from: Nehetsrev

*smirks playfully* I could be mean and say something like "Freudian slip", but that would be mean, so I won't say it.

In advance, I'm posting this comment as a joke, it is not meant to be a personal attack. Please regard it as an attempt at humor between friends(even if it really isn't that funny, or is it?).

EDIT - For further clarification: I'm in a wonky mood today, so don't take this post seriously. Can't explain why I posted it, or even thought it'd be remotely funny, but I did...so laugh if it makes you laugh, but don't take it personal if it doesn't. Does that make sense?

haha nope not at all lol:D

Fatherchaos · « **Reply #54 on:** February 01, 2008, 06:11:14 pm »

Some quotes to the nature of hitpoints:

Hit points (sometimes abbreviated "hp") represent two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a graze or near miss. As you become more experienced, you become more adept at parrying strikes, dodging attacks, and rolling with blows such that you minimize or avoid significant physical trauma, but all this effort slowly wears you down. Rather than trying to keep track of the difference between attacks and how much physical injury you take, hit points are an abstract measure of your total ability to survive damage.

Jedi Counseling 101

Hit points (or hp): This number defines how much damage your character can withstand before being defeated in combat. When your character runs out of hit points, he or she is defeated.

Defining Your Dungeons & Dragons Character - For Dummies

Injury and Death

[FONT="]Hit points measure how hard a character is to kill. Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

[/FONT][SIZE=-1]https://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrddeathdyinghealing.rtf
[/SIZE]Injury and Death

Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Injury and Death :: d20srd.org

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]I read through a number of other posts & sources and am inclined to agree that it is both a measure of physical toughness and the abstraction of the combat 'dance.' I think the d20src sums it up nicely as a measure of "how hard you are to kill." Which of course, is still vague enough to not please everyone.
[/SIZE]

Weeblie · « **Reply #55 on:** February 02, 2008, 04:33:58 am »

Reading the two core handbooks, one realises it still doesn't negate the fact that a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. While HP is used to abstract that you are lessening the "real damage" of incomming blows (my example with a light wound on one's warm compared to a hit that cuts into the bone), it does not nullify them completely (a "hit roll" cannot be considered to have been fully deflected). Even the texts you have posted are supporting that claim (except for the one in the SW edition of D&D).

This is certainily a system that's flawed. For example... while your fighter is obviously getting better and better at hitting other things, he in no way improves his ability to truly dance around and take zero damage. On the other hand, if HP were to symbolize "getting tired in combat", then shouldn't it auto-regenerate to some degree (quicker than what it does now)? And what about the fact that HP can be healed by those cure wounds spells, but the status of fatigue doesn't?

The way it is written in the core handbooks about damage, attack rolls and hit points, it leaves little wriggle room to the fact that hits are really hits (the d20srd texts about those things are almost the same). The only true conclusion one can draw, as the handbooks are merely a guideline for any campaign, and the "opinion of all" is the one standing, is that the base D&D system is far from perfect if one wishes to have a "realistic" system (that's why all those variant rules exist!). :p

So, because of that there are multiple ways to see this, I'm personally letting the HP matter get a little bit more room. If the green text floating over your character's text is still saying uninjured (despite that you have lost a little bit of HP), then I won't really consider you injured either (a light paper-cut-ish wound on your finger? aww...). But if your status is "injured" or "near death"... don't start to claim "I'm merely dead tired..." as I won't buy that (nor do I think anyone else will). :p

Script Wrecked · « **Reply #56 on:** February 02, 2008, 07:18:12 am »

Quote from: Weeblie

On the other hand, if HP were to symbolize "getting tired in combat", then shouldn't it auto-regenerate to some degree (quicker than what it does now)?

Only after you stop getting the snot knocked out of you, and then you can rest (et voila, hitpoints restored).

Hitpoints as fatigue works quite well, because getting hit is fatiguing. Initially, when you are taking "damage", you would be getting roughed up, receiving only superficial physical injuries, scrapes, bruising, small cuts, that sort of thing, but nothing that would impair your ability to fight, and definately no broken bones.

Its only as you start running out of hitpoints that your ability to avoid physical injury diminishes, and the "damage" becomes physical.

Also, if hitpoints can be fully restored by resting, what does that tell you about the nature of "damage"? Fundamental physical damage takes a lot longer for the body to repair than a good night's sleep.

Quote from: Weeblie

And what about the fact that HP can be healed by those cure wounds spells, but the status of fatigue doesn't?

Sorry, I don't understand this. To which "status of fatigue" do you refer?

Note the above paradigm only works for combat. When you start thinking about 10d6 fireballs and lightning bolts, which could well be argued as physical damage, or beheading, or cutting out someone's heart with a 1d4 dagger, well...

I think we can safely say... its a very simplistic system... that does a job... that doesn't hold up to too close a scrutiny. :rolleyes:

Perhaps we should stop trying to demand more of it than it can provide.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Weeblie · « **Reply #57 on:** February 02, 2008, 08:31:33 am »

Condition Summary :: d20srd.org (fatigued part)

It's a condition which I'm sure all Baldur's Gate people know very well.

It's physical tiredness as a result from for example travelling too much!

Script Wrecked · « **Reply #58 on:** February 02, 2008, 10:25:37 am »

Ahh... (thanks for that)

When I said "fatigued", I meant fatigued, not fatigued.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #59 on:** February 05, 2008, 08:53:54 pm »

While you're right on with Fatigue, Weebs, I tip my hat to FatherChaos for getting some copy to support the statement about the abstract nature of Hit Points.

I honestly don't have better than that, unless you want me to transcribe from the Grim N Gritty system, where the HP/AC/etc system is very direct and literal. (It makes references to the differences between it and the standard D20 system.)