religens and belifes with out gods

[Talan Va'lash]

What is really true is immaterial.

This should not be an OOC discussion at all, EXCEPT for the point about whether the character/organization submission rules were followed in creating this character and its history.

Characters beliefs have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the reality of the gameworld. They MAY be similar, they may be exactly the same or they may be 100% contridictory.

[NEXUS7]

Well some very intaresting points.

The one I'm most worred about is my mistake in not submitting for a group, that I should have done. I will not have her taking on behafeb of any her belife/ group untill I do that.

as for a lot of the other coments, the fact is that belife of the god free,ers is at odds with what most belife  in the world of layo.

but and here's the big one, if out of game you as over see'ers and definers of the world just dismiss Roa/my atempet at a pc view with is counter to the world view in this small way, you give cart blarch to players rideuling the v there players to Rosa.

basically killing the pcs rp.

why slame the door so hard on a counter view which brakes no rules, and as the plains od the DnD game univers are infanet my is some odd way be true in a cojnter plain,

(i know draging in other plaines will lead to "if you don't like our plain go play in one you do like" tec I'm not trying to wind you guys up I would just like Roda to have a chance")

It has aways bee  the case that hericy was labeled inscanity all ways. Sadishus  and subvesive, that's the very natuer of fath. but what your saying is a pladin of torin will see an evil black garud as some one who kills for fun dos hideus crimes but as the habe a god and belife my god is reail must be sain.

the gods are real, there is proff so what in fact dos a folower of any god on layo belife in?

as you have pointed out gads work the earth, they can be seen to do things.

so I ask how is a belife that a rock is real then there in front of me any difarent to belife in my god and the afterlife. Thay become facts of life, why have morilae abegutiy when know knows what's right, realy you can as her, in facted shes over there now lets do that.

why would others see rosa as mad. lets look at her belifes.

She belifes in a soul (not mad)
she belifes that gods are real (not mad)
she beifes in life after death (not mad)
she belifes what you do in life matters in the here after (not made)
She belifes that good and evil are real and can be seen in the world (not mad)

She belifes that the soul is on a path to enlightent
(mad)
she belifes that gods are even though the are real are in fact formed from our own belifes, that a truly enlightend soul will pass beyound the need for such contrucs of the spirit to a higher plain of being.
(mad)

That the god being infact hold back souls from this path to enlightent with lies of ur own making as the gods are of our owm making (mad)

she belifes that the world like the gods is a training ground for souls on there walk to enlightent, that all things have some thing to teach the soul on its path.
(mad)

her belife is in some thing that is not real becouse unlike the gods that which he's  belifes in can not be seem to be acting on the world directly.

I ask is this truly what you are saying of Rosa, that blind faith with out proff condemes her as a lunatic, dilushinal and mad?

could it not be that she could be telling the truth.

[Talan Va'lash]

I have to admit NEXUS, I had a lot of trouble reading your last post. Usually if I just read your posts out loud and listen to what I'm saying not what I'm reading I can completely understand them. Maybe it would help if you ran your posts (the long ones at least) through a spell checker first like ozy started doing using Microsoft Word (or at least that's what his signature says.)

Anyway, I think I agree with you, character's can believe whatever they want. Period. Obviously, just because they believe it, does not make it true. A character does not have to be insane to have strongly held beliefs that are untrue. Many very rational intelligent people hold beliefs that are untrue (I could cite historical examples all night.) Many of these cases are merely because the truth hasn't been discovered yet.

I think I should address this point before I wrap up this post, the only character's actions that you may dictate (i.e. say what they do,) are your own characters. Aside from the point of proper approval of an organization and all that, no player may dictate the actions of any character other than their own. The ONLY exception to this rule is if the character they are dictating the acitons of is under the effects of a domination spell. So, assume for the moment the organization had been properly approved (I'm not sure what the status on the point is currently, that is EdTheKet's jurisdiction) you would still not be able to say, "The God Freers post fliers and harass passerbys in the streets of Port Hampshire." or whatever. Since the group is made of NPCs, they have free will and choose to do what they choose to do. Playing NPCs is the jurisdiciton of the GM.

As an example, Talan is very involved with the Church of Aeridin. By no means could I say for example, "The High Priest of Aeridin sends a letter to Broegar demanding the release of the prisoners." Because.. well, I'm not the High Priest of Aeridin. I could say Talan sends the same letter, or Talan goes to try to persuade the High Priest to send the letter, but what NPCs do is not my choice as a player. Unless said NPCs are under the effect of a domination spell that I cast. Which is supremely unlikely to happen considering I only have 5 wizard levels. Among other reasons heh.

[NEXUS7]

*Better Spelling*

thanks for the post Talan Va'lash I take your point on NPCS 100% and will refream from daing such again.
At the moment then Rosa is the only God Free'er thats a fact, Max was there in the in but in fact he was just
soing what he likes doing which is haveing fun with others, He kind of thinks rosa Idear are intoresting but
his got betting things to do then get messed up in some riligan so hes out of the it from here on in.

So its just rosa a Lone voice in the willderness, THanks for the feed back it dos clear things up.
I have below reposted the above post with spell checking (kind of still bad)

Well if I dod nothing eles Rosa couses RP where ever she gos, which was my intent.    
 
Online

Im sorry for my spelling, some times my life is like seeing the world from under the water, trying to talk but only muffeld sounds reach thows on lind,
it can be very fustating.




Well some very interesting points.

The one I'm most worried about is my mistake in not submitting for a group, that I should have done. I will not have her taking on behalf of any her belief/ group until I do that.

as for a lot of the other comments, the fact is that belief of the god free,ers is at odds with what most belief in the world of layo.

but and here's the big one, if out of game you as over see'ers and definers of the world just dismiss Rosa/my attempt at a pc view with is counter to the world view in this small way, you give cartblarnch to players ridiculing her v there players.

Now Im not saying ridiculing her is wrong persay fare from it but if that ridiculing come from out of game then I feel it is wrong.


It has aways be the case that heriy was labeled insanity all ways. sudishus and subversive, that's the very nature of faith. but what your saying is a paladin of Torin will see an evil black Gard as some one who kills for fun dos hideous crimes but as the an evil god and has belife in a my good god is thow bad must be sain.?

From what your saying the layo gods are real, there is prof of that and of what they do good or bad, I'm fine with all that but what im asking is . They could metamorphisms into god like paragons of a particule belief

“what in fact dos a follower of any god on layo belief in?”

I know this sound odd but I think its a valid question, why dos belief in say the politics of the King differ from belief in what a god dos, There are some very high level PCs on layo why not belief in them say Hiro whereship that transposes into belief. Transend as other have said.

See I see faith where you then can ask your real god do show you what to believe in per action and why Rosa sees throws that who have gods as the guilds as slaves. There God will come a punish them for transgression of free thought. Even the good gods hold to account throws that do not follow the Group think of the church.

Also there are High INT players on layo who openly say the gods a being just like the reaces who have merly cruwed so much persinal power that they can preclamed them selfs gods.
They do this in game opanly.

So Rosa has just taken that one step more.

That leads us back to gods being hard fact fact like the rocks on the road and your belief they are real. so I ask how is a belief that a rock is real then there in front of me any difarent to belief in my god and the afterlife. They become facts of life, why have memorial abegutiy when you know knows what's right you can just ask your god, and of set the blame.

But then the clerics speck for there gods and in god that can carry a hell of a lot of wait in RP.
Thats the power that gods hand down not just Devinne magics, but compleat morel authority

So why would others see rosa as mad. lets look at her beliefs are

She beliefs in a soul (not mad)
She beliefs that gods are real (not mad)
She beliefs in life after death (not mad)
She beliefs what you do in life matters in the here after (not made)
She beliefs that good and evil are real and can be seen in the world (not mad)

She beliefs that the soul is on a path to enlightent (mad)
She beliefs that gods are even though the are real are in fact formed from our own belifes, that a truly enlightend soul will pass beyound that need for such constructs of the spirit to a higher plain of being. (mad)

That the god beings infarct hold back the soul from this path to true enlighten with lies for your own making as the gods are of ours and theres making (mad)

she belifes that the world like the gods is a training ground for souls on there walk to enlightent, that all things have some thing to teach the soul on its path.
(mad)

her belief has no prof but I say what matter this, She in facts things the gods are mad for refusing to move to the higher plain of true enlightenment, and that there intent to hold the world as it is and souls in thrall to them makes them less that us throws through ignorance have lost sight of enlightenment.

Now I ask is this truly what you are saying of Rosa, that blind faith with out prof condemes her as a lunatic, delusional and mad?

[darkstorme]

Sorry, NEXUS - for legibility, I edited the above post.  If I've made any false assumptions w/r to your point in some sentences, please correct it - otherwise, this should make the above easier to read:

NEXUS7 -  9/12/2006 7:03 AM

Well, you've all made some very interesting points.

The one I'm most worried about is my mistake in not submitting for a group: that, I should have done. I will not have Rosa talking on behalf of any of her belief/group until I do that.

As for a lot of the other comments, the fact is that the beliefs of the God Free'ers are at odds with what most believe in the world of Layo.

However - and this is my main point, if, out of game, you as overseers and definers of the world just dismiss Rosa/my attempt at a PC view which is counter to the world view in this small way, you give carte blanche to players ridiculing her (in-game) with their characters.

Now, I'm not saying that ridiculing her is wrong per se - far from it! - but if that ridicule originates out of game then I feel it is wrong.

It has always been the case that heresy was labeled as insanity, sedition and subversion, that's the very nature of organized religion.  What you're saying is a paladin of Toran would see an evil Blackguard - someone who kills for fun and commits hideous crimes - who supports an evil god and believes in Toran's existence as bad but sane?

From what you're saying the Layo gods are real - there is proof of that and of what they do, whether good or bad.  I'm fine with all of that, but what I'm asking is this: while a being could metamorphose into a god through a function of its believers, what in fact dos a follower of any god on layo believe in?

I know this may sound odd but I think its a valid question - why does belief in, say, the politics of the King differ from belief in what a god does?  There are some very high level PCs on Layo; why not believe in them - a case Hero worship that transforms into belief (or transcend, as others have said).

See I see faith as a position where you can ask your real god to show you what to believe in on a per action basis, and this is the reason why Rosa sees, through that, that worshippers are as slaves.  Their God will punish them for the "transgression" of free thought.  Even the good gods hold those that do not follow the Group Think of the church accountable (read: Inquisition).

Also, there are High INT players on Layo who openly say that the gods are beings just like the common races who merely accrued so much personal power that they proclaimed themselves gods.

They do this in game openly.

Rosa, then, has just taken that one step further.

That leads us back to the existence and history of the gods being hard fact - fact like the rocks on the road.   I ask, then, how is a belief that a rock I hold in my hand is real any different from belief in a god and the afterlife?  They become facts of life, why have (moral/memorial) ambiguity - when you don't know what's right you can simply ask your god, and offset the blame.

But the clerics speak for their gods and that can carry a hell of a lot of weight in RP.

That's the power that Layo's gods hand down  - not just Divine magics, but complete moral authority and assurance.

So, then, why would others see Rosa as mad?  Let's examine her beliefs:

- She believes in a soul (not mad)
- She believes that gods are real (not mad)
- She believes in life after death (not mad)
- She believes what you do in life matters in the hereafter (not mad)
- She believes that good and evil are real and can be seen in the world (not mad)

- She believes that the soul is on a path to enlightenment (mad)
- She believes that gods - although they exist - are in fact formed from our own belifs, and that a truly enlightened soul will pass beyond the need for such constructs of the spirit to a higher plain of being. (mad)
- She believes that the god-beings/constructs in fact hold back the soul from this path to true enlightenment with lies of the mind's own making as the gods are based out of those same minds (mad)
- She believes that the world, like the gods, is a training ground for souls on their walk to enlightenment, that all things exist to teach the soul on its path.(mad)

While her belief has no basis in proof, what does it matter?  Rosa, in fact, thinks the gods are mad for refusing to move to the higher plain of true enlightenment, and that their intent to hold the world as it is and to hold souls in thrall to them makes them lesser than even the common races.  Like us, through ignorance, they have lost sight of the path to enlightenment.

Now I ask: is this truly what you are saying of Rosa, that blind faith without proof condemns her as a lunatic, delusional and mad?

[darkstorme]

In answer to this question: In-character, yes!  Traditionally, (at least on Earth), most prophets of "new faiths" were seen as mad and killed as an example to those who might choose to follow their teachings.  In fact, the lack of proof would make her seem madder still in Layo.  Those who have faith in gods who make their prescence known in the world are clearly not mad.. they believe in a deity who grants them power for it.  Someone who believes in a concept of their own devising which is contradictory to most of what is taught/believed which has no proof behind it is clearly delusional.

The other major problem I see is inconsistancy in your argument.  You have Rosa taking the concept that the gods accrued power and rose from the ranks of mortals "one step further/more" - which is contrary to your assertion that gods are born of the mind and are essentially jumped-up mass figments of the imagination.  Either would be fine for her to espouse, but she ought to choose an opinion/direction to her madness.  

Further, your argument as to moral right/wrong is invalid - you point out yourself that a Paladin would view a blackguard as evil, and someone to be slain.  That's a moral judgement.  Judging if someone is insane however, has to do with whether what they're saying makes any sense.  If it's a lie, they could be evil.  If it's a lie and they believe it utterly, they're delusional.  If it's a lie that they came up with and they believe it, they're insane.  No question.  The degree of insanity depends on the degree to which the belief affects their life.  If, as in Rosa's case, they're evangelical about it, they may as well be one of the people shouting on soap boxes from "Life of Brian".  Nuts, but fairly harmless.  However, given that there are imnical gods in Layo, their respective priests might take umbrage at Rosa's assertions and seek to ... ahem... do something about her.

Further, Rosa shouldn't expect too many "followers" in her organization - one would imagine that the regular priesthoods (ALL of them) would gently or firmly discourage participation in the group, and sensible people on Layo would know that she's wrong regardless.  It's not a group that ought to expect any growth, and would likely die with her.  As for the commonfolk - they'd probably view Rosa as commonfolk usually view foaming prophets - as cheap entertainment, especially when brought into conflict with the local church.

@Talan - I don't think merely group rules, etc. are pertinent to this discussion - it's in the RP forum, so the question is how such a thing might be RPed, both by Rosa (and any compatriots she could gather, I suppose), and those RPing around them.

[NEXUS7]

darkstorme, you have some good points and I disagree with most of them,  

Humm is it me are was there a tone of dismissiveness in your last post.

My pich with Rosa was to make some good RP from a cult like belief that I feel is lacking I feel in the belifes of layo for fun,.
I can see why you have such a hard time with Rosa and her beliefs, DnD can be like that all rules and no fun some times. But Rosa was made with in the rules and has a counter view of the world, now will she get followers I have no idear, Im just playing her. But pleased try not to make your posts sound like you saying how that playing will go, its smacks of poposity.

next point

As for the natuer of cults you can never tell what will and will not cach on, as only a player talking to payers, Rosa would have to convert PCs
which could be a lot of fun, hiding from the clerics on there which hunt. What has saddaned me is the blanket adhirance to the Idear that faith with out proff is the relams of madness. In the real world that is all relgain is. (note im a Taoist so no god head for me) But my point is still valid, what is faith in Layo if you know your god to
be real, there power is real and the after life is real, (in fact no PC comes back from the lands of the dead with any memareys so who knows)

So, PCs belive in heven and have no prof that is such a place. They can see the soul mothers land but other than that who knows.

"The other major problem I see is inconsistancy in your argument. You have Rosa taking the concept that the gods accrued power and rose from the ranks of mortals "one step further/more" - which is contrary to your assertion that gods are born of the mind and are essentially jumped-up mass figments of the imagination. Either would be fine for her to espouse, but she ought to choose an opinion/direction to her madness. "

Ok here gos
Gods or not figments of the imagination, they are as I have said to Rosas way of thinking Construckes of faith and its power, the seed of the constuect and be any thing but its mosdirected faith that powers its metamophases into a so called devine being. To Rosa we are all on a road to a higher plain that any thing temparel devitity can offer, that in fact temparel divenity is nothing more than stolen power taken from
us by greedy selfshish gods whos lies hole back souls from there asent.

I hope that clears that up.

Then your point on
" your argument as to moral right/wrong is invalid" not from Rosa's point of view, remeber all gods are bad as they hold souls back.
Yes thay can do good deeds in the world but what whould it profit an man if he gaine the world and lose his very soul.
Thats her take,  "you point out yourself that a Paladin would view a blackguard as evil," but there are kinds of evil.
Rosa holds that souls held back from enlignment can be seen as an evil act, good gods do this so they may act good in the real world but commit a soul crime
which is evil by making god slaves. do that clear it up.

As for Good and evil being a moral judgement, in DnD good and evil are real just as the gods are real theres no moral judgement, its a fact.
You dont belife some one is evil you know they are, you dont need to see what thay do or hear there words one spell tells you for a fact so
Detect evil and then smite away. (I know the layo take is well not so clear cut but all agree good and eveil are real)

"Further, Rosa shouldn't expect too many "followers" in her organization"

OK I my have taken this the wrong way but as her player I know just what Rosa is feeling and thinking, and she DOS in fact expect many followers,
In fact she exspects the who world to folow the path. In your last 2 posts this this tone that has wound me up. You as a player do no not tell other players
who to play there pcs like this is just bad RPing. ITs like have a discription of your PC which reads "You feel unseay around this elf" "your dont like being with this Human"
"this Dearf aways makes every one happy" Thats not how it works and you should know this you dont sound like a stuped perstion so way make this mistake.
Im not trying to flame you Im just saying its not nice to be told what your own PC is feeling.

From a DM/world maker good! from anotehr player bad,

thats all I have to say on this matter.

But last of all thanks for your input is was intaerest to read and like I say I disagree with most of your point but some where vaild

[EdTheKet]

I will not have her taking on behafeb of any her belife/ group untill I do that.

Thanks.
Your character believing this is fine, however, you should be aware that she will have the entire world against her as it is so against what people experience directly and know from stories/dogma/church doctrine.

On the proof point. Darkstorme is right in this case. The deities interact with the world and respond to their followers either by granting spells, or prayers or sometimes even advice. This is a fact, this has been shown many times in front of many people, so this is real. Because this is so backed up by clear evidence, people will not flock to the banner of a concept that is so alien and unproven to them, a concept which in fact, cannot be proved.

So, PCs belive in heven and have no prof that is such a place.

While it is EXTREMELY HARD to do, people could actually travel there. Besides that point however, take for example the clerical summons, for example, those of Vorax. The dwarven warriors summoned to a cleric's aid come from the Hallowed Halls of Vorax (= Vorax' part of the Heavens) and these were warriors who used to live on Layonara (before they died and went to heaven).
Then there are, for example, the celestials who occasionally interact on behalf of their deities. These inhabit the heavens, and often do good. This is yet another reason why people will not feel inclined to embrace a concept of all gods being 'bad' and holding souls hostage.

So, because of the above, I won't be approving a God Freeers organization.

[Leanthar]

I whole heartedly support Ed in this call. Lets drop this subject.

[NEXUS7]

Thank you for your input ed,

As you wish Leanthar dropped it is.

Please could this thred be closed thanks