Two Pet Hates

[Gulnyr]

So instead of calling that no real cost effort, maybe it should actually be a compliment to those who would think ahead of time and give good emotes descriptions of what their disguises are, or how they are trying to make it harder for someone to guess what they are.

Read this again:

I'm not saying it isn't a reasonable way to disguise oneself or that it wouldn't have been invented, only that there's no real cost or effort involved for the PC.

To be clear, player effort is not what I was talking about and I wasn't insulting player cleverness.  There is no cost or effort for the character because there is nothing mechanical in place - no Disguise skill, no Disguise Kit, no anything - that requires any cost or effort.  Players do take advantage of that, though, on both sides; with no rules, anything goes.  Again with the big mess.

[SteveMaurer]

It all ends up a big mess.  It's an immovable object ("My character is a master of disguise after spending a century and a half on the surface hiding this way.") against an irresistible force ("My character has the eyes of ten hawks and perception that would make Sherlock Holmes cry, and his Spot check tops out at 103.")

In general, if I see even the remotest attempt to wear a plausible disguise, I will (with the exception of one PC who is specifically aware of these things) honor it.   Never mind that covering your face is one of the most obvious things you can do, and draws immediate police attention, and not to mention being illegal in certain U.S. states and countries.   I'll at least give you points for trying.

But most characters don't even go that far.   There is not even the attempt to work a plausible disguise into the backstory of the typical Layonaran dark elf writeup.    It's all mostly "I'm an elf who wears a hood so you can't recognize what I am.  You get a very creepy feeling looking at me, since I wear all black, carry myself like a stalker, and have so much evil magic that I glow like a blacklight.   But no one ever bothers to ask me to take the hood off, or ask questions, or anything, because I'm mysteriously evil, and you'd never even be suspicious of me.   Really."

Clearly, the people who think this works have never ever had the experience of being questioned by a suspicious cop, much less a security officer before getting on the Israeli airline El Al.

In other words, not everyone acts like the typical victim in a slasher flick: a clueless, innocent, naif, with the survival skills of an overripe tomato.  This should be especially true for PCs who see plenty of death.

But, we're all trying to have fun here.  So I make allowances.

[lonnarin]

The gnomes inventing sunglasses comment immediately made me think of the whole of the [strike]Underdark[/strike] Deep running around like the more modern image of some vampires with the long coats, death pale skin and shades.

I don't know why, but it was really funny to me for some reason... Either you're a dark elf or you're a vampire and I don't break fast with either of them! *shakes fist*

Dark elf vampires with sunglasses and katanas!  I so want that quest to be run!  There has to also be the Blade-inspired half-dark elf half-vampire weaponmaster who hunts the vampires with a silver katana twice as tall as himself.  It's like, mandatory.

[jrizz]

Guess I will add my two bits to the subject. DEs and gobos are really the only ones trying to hide what they are as all the big monster races have very little chance to do so. So to all the DEs that are trying to hide what they are out there with hoods and helms and head to toe skin covering I say this:
 
 1. You are slight of build (read as elf like) and you are covered from head to toe. My PC was not born yesterday and has known more then a few DEs. Guess what he thinks when he sees you?
 
 2. When you are in a fight you have to move about (a lot), you take many hits, you need to be able to see to shoot, swing, or cast. Sure I will accept the "I keep myself covered from head to toe" thing if you are walking down the road but not when you are in a fight. Maybe, just maybe a caster can get away with it, if nothing runs up to them and gives them a bonk on the head.

[Hellblazer]

To be clear, player effort is not what I was talking about and I wasn't insulting player cleverness.  There is no cost or effort for the character because there is nothing mechanical in place - no Disguise skill, no Disguise Kit, no anything - that requires any cost or effort.  Players do take advantage of that, though, on both sides; with no rules, anything goes.  Again with the big mess.

I understand what you are saying, but still, I can't agree with that. Should a PC or player be penalized for the lack of mechanical aspect of subterfuge which clearly relates to RP for  the disguises, masks, camouflage paint etc?

And when you say that there is no effort for the character, then you undeniably put it also on the player as it is the player who plays the character who is stuck with the unfortunate lack of mechanical instance to promote subterfuge. So every thing -must- rely on understanding on both part and emotes and RP.

And I have to say that we actually have four skills that could be used for such thing. Craft armor, bluff, persuade, and perform. All of those can be used in conjunction to promote RP. Have a person roll a hide and armor craft check (don't know if the last is possible) against your wis/int and spot.

As it has obviously been said many times and for many different reason, we are dealing with a limited system, and in such we have to be understanding of those limits and not put on the player character and their players for the lack of support needed to do it.

I will take for example the discussion there was about spells and balance that happened a while ago (not that I want to reignite it mind you). But it was said that there were many spells that existed in DND that were not supported by the engine. But yet some Gm's would allow you to use them if it fitted their quests. If a gm is able to actually let a player go outside of the limitation of the game engine, why should we, as player, not be as gracious and leave what the engine can not support to rp. You want to roll a spot, send a tell first and ask the player what he is wearing, then see with him, if a spot would be appropriated to find out what he or she is, with his costume in mind. I think the community has grown enough and matured enough that those playing monstrous races also plays other races and can put them selves in your shoes also, and understand that there is a risk for playing such race. If the player obstinately refuses, then you are in no way or form forced to rp with that player in the future.



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Edits: Craft armor check actually works in game. SO I suggest that as a RP tool those who absolutely wishes to create disguises or camouflage powder/ paint, put some points in this skill and uses in rp situation. I know that it's not a popular thing, but I do also understand the need to have a common ground that every one could relate to. This could be it. This way those who feels that there is nothing to support the creation of mask and disguises can be content, and you actually have a cost to create realistic disguises. I know I will start putting some points in it for one of my char.. who isn't a dreaded Dark elf . I also suggest that a counter could be spot and intelligence checks, v.s. Craft armor and intelligence checks.

Of courses there is also other ways to go around this if the person trying to find out if their suspicions is real can go. If they knew the culprit by hearing their voice and face before hand, they can do a listen and int, vs a perform and persuade. Gears exists to enhance perform and persuade checks, so there can be an actual cost to that too.

There is a variety of way to go about this. All that is needed is a couple of tell to see what the other party are okay with.

[Shiokara]

Guess I will add my two bits to the subject. DEs and gobos are really the only ones trying to hide what they are as all the big monster races have very little chance to do so.

My pack ox is a wemic in disguise.

[Hellblazer]

*points up to his edit*

[SteveMaurer]

My pack ox is a wemic in disguise.

My wemic is a pack ox in disguise.


Not as tough though.    He took on two hawks bare handed, as wemics are wont to do, and only lived because he stabilized.

[Gulnyr]

This reminded me, because of the stuff about all the text DMs have to watch...  

I have a niggle that ranges anywhere from silly to mildly irritating, depending on circumstances: unnecessarily emoting.  That's not a great name since it's not easy to define just exactly what a "necessary emote" is, but that's what I usually call it.  

Here's an example.  Imagine a situation where there is a speaker, such as when an NPC is telling the party something.  The unnecessary emote *listens* will pop up.  Seriously?  You emoted the default, man.  I'm assuming you're listening unless you emote otherwise.  In a small group, it's just silly.  In a large group, it's mildly irritating when the text scrolls faster than it really needs to because three (or five, or more!) people feel the need to emote unnecessarily.

[Script Wrecked]

I use the *listens* emote to indicate that my character's attention is now focused on the talker and that they are no longer participating in what was previously taking place, so I guess its a contraction, *stops what they were previously doing and listens to the oratory*.

Its also sometimes an OOC message for others to be giving their full attention to the oratory so that A) they know what's going on, and B) that they're not distracting from the oratory by contributing to the text flying up the screen.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Gulnyr]

*nods* Reasonable enough.  It still just looks like an unnecessary emote, though, heh.  Do you think an emote like *shushes Leanthar* (haha!) might be better sometimes?  

And, of course, *listens* was only one example.  In a large enough group in certain situations, almost any emote can be unnecessary.  With a handful of people, "flavor emotes" that don't directly communicate but give some idea of the character are great.  A nervous tick, adjusting armor, whatever - all nice stuff.  In a larger group with many people popping off the flavor, it just mucks up the text, y'know?

[Script Wrecked]

Absolutely.

I personally minimize flavor emotes in such large groups. Though every now-and-then, I may pop one just to let everyone know I'm still there.

And perhaps you meant, *shushes, Leanthar*

[Lynn1020]

After having this happen to me again tonight, I decided to add it to the list here.  

It drives me crazy when you are in a group and taking your time traveling with rp'ing... to only have someone come past you and not even pause to join up and rp.  They just run past you and spawning everything on their way.  I have had it done on the way to CNR and just out in places like the forest.  

Be considered of other players. If you do not like rp then maybe this is not the server for you. There are many others out there that would be a better place for this behavior.

[Xaltotun]

Lynn1020 raises a good point:

They just run past you and spawning everything on their way. I have had it done on the way to CNR and just out in places like the forest.

and I think most of us would agree. However, I know of one character who does this regularly and with justifiable RP support for them. Not for the first time have I been RPing with others in the rest area of the Goblin Wastelands and this character has run dragging some goblins with them (no names, but you know who you are). The outcome for my character is that they will not join in any party that that character is in, as they do not appear to be sociable or the sort of person you would trust in a party.

Agreed that this may not be the normal sort of situation that Lynn1020 talks about, but it's worth keeping in mind (and perhaps worth giving them a thick PvP ear when you catch up with them; which would suit both types of character play).

[Lynn1020]

Lynn1020 raises a good point:
 

and I think most of us would agree. However, I know of one character who does this regularly and with justifiable RP support for them. Not for the first time have I been RPing with others in the rest area of the Goblin Wastelands and this character has run dragging some goblins with them (no names, but you know who you are). The outcome for my character is that they will not join in any party that that character is in, as they do not appear to be sociable or the sort of person you would trust in a party.

Agreed that this may not be the normal sort of situation that Lynn1020 talks about, but it's worth keeping in mind (and perhaps worth giving them a thick PvP ear when you catch up with them; which would suit both types of character play).

No it isn't anything  like that.  This the norm for this player but it doesn't have anything to do with RP.