Two Pet Hates

[Link092]

not really a pet peeve for me, but I'm always a tad worried about how I should deal with each individual, as they RP and make rolls (or don't) differently and such...

._.

[Hellblazer]

Without the actual item available in-game, emoting cosmetics seems as much a cop-out as the fully-covering mask to me, except without all the drawbacks of vision problems and such.  I'm not saying it isn't a reasonable way to disguise oneself or that it wouldn't have been invented, only that there's no real cost or effort involved for the PC.  It's just a way for a dark elf's (or other monstrous race character's) player to dump off the (minimal) negatives of that race for a while.

I can't really agree on that one, mostly because of all the time we have been told that there is many things that are not In the game world due to process and servers, and database, but we had to assume they were there and rp accordingly. Example, the villagers and all. On so many quests also we have been asked to think outside the limitation of the game engine to get to our answers. So it seems only logical, that things that would obviously exist in game but is not for mechanical aspect, to be used in all kind of rp. Powder existed for a looong loong time, so has facial paint.

To remind every one of a disguise that is or not written in the bio card, most people have to rp it being there or give a tell to the people about it. It can become a pain in the long run. But that comes with making such char and wanting to pass incognito.

Perhaps dark elves shouldn't be submitted publicly, nor have a dark elvish name, nor a dark elvish portrait, and if you were allowing perfect non-smearing water resistant makeup, nor dark elvish skin. There would be nothing to meta, their disguise perfect (they could even have a widget to set their skin black when they wanted to be natural).

The only problem then is, are they just a regular elf?

*shrugs*

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Heck you probably know better than me if this is doable in game, but if it can.. Man I would love that option to be available. Not because my Dark elf would use it.. or sometimes she would, she does hates her skin color, of course that comes with not being a psychopath. But also for all the other player here who play dark elves and try their best to rp their disguise but are unfortunately dumbfounded by people who just disregard their rp and do the so evil metagaming. Although I have to say for my own experience, I have not seen a lot of that with Tyillaan. But then again I emote a lot her ways of keeping her head low, concealing her face form the look of others. Brought a funny moment with Noka when he found out. But then again he had never gotten close enough to look up and see her face. I personally give a tell to people that are close enough to do so, of what they would see. Can't remember who it was, but one of those who I telled, gave me a tell back; " he just wasn't interested in the process of looking up to see someones face." made me laugh.

And that is the exact analogy to make.  Because it's not just the makeup, I'm talking about here.    No normal dark elf would demean himself by actually trying to pass as a surface traitor. Ever. It would be something akin to a southern 1930s KKK klansman trying to pass himself off as black. They might do it as a joke - a mockery, like blackface, as vicious comedy, but not for real. So actual realistic makeup would not be be a technology any dark elf would learn, absent some other compelling reason to develop such a disguise.

And no matter what, the red glowy eyes, are kind-of a giveaway.

Well, we have to remember that not all dark elf are those sent to kill someone or have a right of passage way. you have that 1 to 10%? who chose or were forced to leave the deep for various reason. I doubt i'm wrong thinking that az'attan's dark elf don't think of themselves as much better as any other races, since even their goddess gives redemption to all who wishes it. They are a minority, but it doesn't mean they aren't Dark elf. So maybe some of them would like to be able to hide that fact from others.. and maybe even from themselves out of disgust for their own kind.

[Shiokara]

On the subject of checks I have a few thoughts.

It doesn't make sense to me that there necessarily has to be one counter-check for another kind of check. People, like our characters, respond to events differently.

To use the intimidate check example:

If I throw an intimidate, a fighter/soldier type character might throw a discipline check. This is to RP his ability to control his fear response. After all, he has seen many scary things, one more cat with its hair standing on end might not seem too much of a threat against his experience and discipline.

Conversely, a mage/intellectual type character might throw a will or concentration check. He would be representative of those people who are so smart that they recognize attempts to intimidate as simple, brutish things. Actions which cannot match their own deep-cutting sarcasm.

And while it may not be a counter to an intimidate throw I could also see ways where some characters might defuse the situation. Say one character throws intimidate. The responding character might be intimidated, but in being afraid might try to abate the anger of the first character by throwing a persuade with a corresponding emote.

Of course I recognize the obvious problem people might have with this, that it will likely lead to characters trying to find ways to argue throwing their highly modified skills, but to be honest, I really don't see any problem with that. From a metagaming standpoint I like it because it makes players think deeply about how they can apply the skills their character has to manipulate their environment in different situations. From a RP standpoint I like it because if a character recognizes he has a skill for performance or persuasion or disabling traps, it makes sense that he would think and work within those skills.

Another situation: Common in places like Brenuth is the snowball fight where I often see people throwing reflex to dodge the snowball. But if you're a lumbering hulk of a character wouldn't you more likely get a shoulder up to block it or try to hit it away with your hand (if you even react fast enough to do anything)?
______________

Other questions about throwing rolls:

Can an animal empathy check be used on players to read body language and other silent modes of communication? Of course it can't read thoughts, but it seems that if you can read the behavior patterns of animals then that should apply to humanoid animals as well. It is, after all, a wisdom based skill, the attribute that I think of being associated with knowing life and a general sense of how people think, feel, and act. (Not to be confused with intelligence which would make one know how people think, feel, and act from the pages of a psychology textbook.)

_______

I really think that the best system for rolls and counter-rolls would be decided on a case by case basis where the person playing the character has a choice for deciding how the character should best react.

Rolls and counter-rolls are something that do need that RP basis, and before one rolls against something they might also want to ask themselves, "Is this something my character could make an attempt to stand up to?" For example a shy or skiddish character might not even want to consider going up against an intimidate or persuade roll, as they do not have the heart to argue with the actant.

Another point, as intimidate, persuade, and a couple other skills have no benefit except for RP I would say they should be afforded some amount of leeway. There should be some reward to having a persuasive character who can't take one of the more practical skills (like Lore) because of it.

My final argument is this: Having one counter-roll set up against a roll encourages metagaming. This is because it addresses things from a mechanical standpoint and not an RP standpoint. If I am too think about a character as if it were an individual, then I must accept that different characters will react to the same situation differently. If each character has to react with the same counter-roll in mind, then that limits that individual response. Also, it makes it possible for players to throw skills they know they've trained against players who might not have high scores in the counter-skill.

Phew, that's long, so I hope I made some good points. ^^;

[Acacea]

The reason it is a modified level check is to take into account actual experience, not just training. The wisdom and save modifiers vs fear add for the actual mind and fear part. It's not that I don't believe in creative countering - bluff in particular I think really shafts those high-wis characters when DMs require another bluff to counter, but will save starts hurting the bluffer and so on... Between PCs as long as everyone is happy, it's all good, right?

Part of intimidation, though, is not necessarily just scaring someone and making them show it, but to coerce them into doing something they would not otherwise do. I'd think discipline, as in the example, would be a good show of how someone would try to act once already affected by someone's intimidation - trucking on despite it, like someone who believes a lie but still can't for other reasons do as you wish them to do. To actually avoid being affected in the first place, the other is meant to be taken into account, and isn't supposed to define reactions or responses - but rather how easily cowed that person is. What they choose to do with it, just like anything else, is dependent on them. *Shrugs* Intimidation in particular I kind of like as standard because you can't just pick people who haven't "trained" in a counter, nor can a level 14 barbarian try to intimidate the pants off of multiple war vets just because they have no ranks in social skills.

Likewise someone can't just decide they're not intimidated because they have a high persuade and can persuade him to not be so scary. I don't mind being gracious with DCs and checks at all, and often choose to take a fall on them because I think it would be more fun and may very well be appropriate for my character at that time. Likewise I try not to force reactions because of having high skills, so I'm not sure anyone can think of the last time she rolled a persuade against a PC... she, depending on the moment, often auto-succeed a DC 70 check, and others 60 is not breaking a sweat - but why? It's not like you REALLY try that hard with every "please give me that piece of pie, it would really make me happy," just like are you really using all +50 of your intimidate when you pull a scary face at someone? Think carefully - is that as scary as you get? Your greatest effort? Then maybe just let it ride and let people react how they choose for the most part. That often leads to less ignoring of those numbers when you really mean them.

Hope that makes any sense at all!

((Edit - mega hijacked!))

[Gulnyr]

So it seems only logical, that things that would obviously exist in game but is not for mechanical aspect, to be used in all kind of rp.

Sure, but that's not the point.  How good is a given character at applying a visual disguise?  Is it always perfect and undetectable?  Can it go wrong at all?  How is that determined?  Mechanically, how are cosmetics different than a hood or a scarf?  Is wanting to pass incognito and sending tells or spamming emotes really all it takes to keep a dark elf (or whatever) completely undetected?  That's exactly what I was talking about - "I'm going to powder my face today so I don't have to put up with the few negatives that come with being a dark elf."  No.  

And does no other character have excellent vision?  Is no other character especially perceptive?  How is that determined?  Spot check, right?  Check against what?  There's no disguise rule.

If the two players agree on the method, awesome, but there is no standard (because there is nothing to anchor the rules to, like a disguise kit or a disguise skill) and not everyone is going to want to stop and argue mechanics in tells for fifteen minutes.

It all ends up a big mess.  It's an immovable object ("My character is a master of disguise after spending a century and a half on the surface hiding this way.") against an irresistible force ("My character has the eyes of ten hawks and perception that would make Sherlock Holmes cry, and his Spot check tops out at 103.")

[Hellblazer]

Well in essence a dark elf or a wanted person that is wearing a hood, is not hiding. It's been stated before hand that hoods does not cover the whole face in a way that it is impossible to not see it. There for, if you are wearing a hood and stand completely straight, well of course you will be seen. It's a dead give away and there isn't much to argue about that.

But if we take my char, as I don't know any other darkelf that actually walks with a hood openly, When she meets someone she doesn't know, and has no magic on her that gives her concealment, invisibility, stone or barkskin, the she will Hide behind someone she trust, or keep her head low so that at that time, unless you are in a position to look up from under her head, you wont see her face. There again a Spot check would be useless as in RP it is emoted that she keeps it that way. But again, if there was a spot check made in any other circumstances that caught her unprepared (not hidden behind a friend or her ox, no emotes about how she holds herself, no spells to cover her) what ever the spot check would be, unless if it was an obvious 3 or lower, the person would automatically know what she is. That's me though, and I know that not all people act the way I do with her. But as a general and already mentioned rule. Hoods can not hide faces. A full mask/helmet does. And unless you were actually peeking in it eye to eye level, you wouldn't be able to see into a full face helmet (think of the jousts helmet that were used by knights and all), heck they had even trouble seeing just in front of them hehe.

But since there is only one actual IG full head mask (not helmet), and it's a male head at that, or one ninja mask. It really doesn't give much to work with, which is why people uses emotes to rp what they use to disguise themselves. I wish there were more to use, but there ain't, so we have to use what we have at our disposal and that's rp. So instead of calling that no real cost effort, maybe it should actually be a compliment to those who would think ahead of time and give good emotes descriptions of what their disguises are, or how they are trying to make it harder for someone to guess what they are. We don't see people roll spot check on someone that is wearing a knights helmet where the mask is covering so much of their face that they can't even see their own toes standing up. But anything else than that, can be arguably called no real efforts. It seems rather convenient and detrimental to the work and thought behind the rp of those who try to find other ways to Rp their character. That was my point.

[geloooo]

Hehe it's a big mess indeed! It is flawed but it's the only thing we have so far. So long as all parties involved (Questers and GM) acknowledge it, then it's good. These disguises have flaws, otherwise there won't be a thrill to being a Dark Elf. The magical disguise can be detected by other spellcasters and the make up can also smudge, a load of possibilities can be taken into account. A standard would be great in terms of these things though. One way or another, it's always up to the player to make certain changes that way everything will be relatively fair and powergaming made non-existent. Just my two cents.

[Shiokara]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/8952/300655-195px_ff6_gogo_super.jpg

In other news, Gogo may be a dark elf!

Edit: And the guards of Port Hempstead might be able to beat monster races with the ugly stick if only they didn't keep losing it to the local kobalds.

[Pseudonym]

Well in essence a .... blah blah .... That was my point.

(Part of) my point was even a closed-face helmet still allows people to see within if you are able to see out without penalty or restriction. The eye-slot that your knight example looks through is not a sixteenth of an inch wide.

[Hellblazer]

an other one

and an other one

and finally the dual usage full face mask. Protects you and lets you drain your pasta.

not really sixteenth of an inch wide, but you get what I mean. You would have to be real close to see the eyes, as the helmet itself would shadow the eyes, unless you have protruding eyes. And that is just an example there are many other kinds, some without breathing intakes. The reason why the eyes were made so slim, was to avoid swords, daggers, arrows to enter easily in the helmet and be deflected around it.



But of course if you had the more spartan/gladiator kind of helmet, well that is not a full face helmet.

[Pseudonym]

Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.

Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.

[Hellblazer]

Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.

the jousting helmets (4 first pics) where for mounted knights.

Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.

lol now that would be the day

But heck if they do wear that all the time they deserve it . Anyhow, hoods I agree with you plain to see. Vail, half mask helmet also. Full mask.... well unless you are standing nose to nose ..or at least 2 feets away.. not so much plain to see. Imho.

[Dorganath]

Helmets designed for use by mounted knights.

Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.

In for the next update.

[Dorganath]

In serious though, what's being objected to is not the presence of face-concealing head gear or even whether good enough cosmetics exist in the period and level of technology we have in the Layonara setting.  Clearly, on Earth, cosmetics have been around for thousands of years.  That's not really the point.

The point is this: In the absence of any real standards or mechanical support for disguises, saying "Oh I'm wearing a mask" or "I'm wearing light-colored makeup" is used as an "I win" device, and people hate "I win" devices when used against them.  Just as bad, however, is the "I win" metagaming that goes on via portrait, server status or knowledge of the character bio.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Okay, if you wanna say your dark elf wears one of these 24/7, then I shall beseech Dorg to introduce a dark-elf skin modification that inflicts an appropriate range of combat and skill penalties as well as the inevitable head fungus that must result.

But I have Blindfight! and I'm immune to disease. *nods sagely, throws a few more sticks on the fire, and sings "We didn't start the fire..."*

[Aerimor]

I was going to say if you play a dark elf it's for one of two reasons: the mechanical benifiets or the challenge.  If you are after stats, shame, shame.  And if you are after a challenge then no impenatrable illusions, paints, helms, etc. that only your friends seem to be able to detect or only fail when convienant.  

But then I thought about it and decided that these are one of those threads that can't really be helped.  And I really don't like fueling pointless discussions on the board, it only gives them more life.

Sooo....
*Grabs a sword and slashes out his post and then stabs the rest of the thread*
Die beast! Die, die!

P.S.: I have a pet...niggle, did he say?  Bloody Aussies.  *winks at Pseud*

It's umm *thinks quick* How guys dress female characters.  Like Ohhh My gawwd, where did you learn fashion? Of course I am not saying ALL just a LOT.

And mis-matching boots.  Do you really need your right boot red and your left blue so you can rememebr which foot goes in which boot?  If people only knew the nightmares Raz has after seeing some Layo fashions.

All my serious niggles are too serious, so I keep them locked up.  

[geloooo]

I should really make a new pair of battle robes for Ni'haer, I'm getting tired of the 'evil' look and the spikes are getting really old. But somehow he looks good in his current garb since it complements his scrawny physique. Now we're talking about fashion and what our characters wear. Please save us.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

P.S.: I have a pet...niggle, did he say?  Bloody Aussies.  *winks at Pseud*

It's umm *thinks quick* How guys dress female characters.  Like Ohhh My gawwd, where did you learn fashion? Of course I am not saying ALL just a LOT.

And mis-matching boots.  Do you really need your right boot red and your left blue so you can rememebr which foot goes in which boot?  If people only knew the nightmares Raz has after seeing some Layo fashions.

Hope you don't mean Tyra, she might not be fashionable, but her clothes always match...  

[miltonyorkcastle]

Really, with all the other places a thread like this could have/has gone in the past, silly comments about fashion is downright enjoyable. But then, since Pseudo started this thread, it also is entirely appropriate for PC fashions to have a place amidst "serious" discussion of metagaming, race, and cheese.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]