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Author Topic: You And Your Dicebag  (Read 199 times)

Faldred

You And Your Dicebag
« on: February 26, 2007, 08:39:07 am »
[SIZE=16]You And Your Dicebag[/SIZE]
Yet another in a series of roleplaying essays

The dicebag is a wonderful tool.  It allows for on-the-fly skill checks, random dice rolls, and the like.  In its simplest form, it's a simple random number generator, which can simulate the drawing of lots or dice games.  Of course, it offers far more flexibility than that.

The dicebag is used on DM quests all the time to perform types of checks that the game engine simply can't handle on its own, or that the DM wants more control over.  In casual player-to-player roleplaying, the bag can be used to enhance character-to-character interactions.

The d20 System, Difficulty Class (DC), and the Like

Ok... crazy as it sounds, I'm going to start off this article on roleplaying by talking game and system mechanics for a bit.  The reason is that in order to fully understand how to use your dicebag in roleplaying, it is important to know what the checks are, what they mean, and how they're determined.

Neverwinter Nights, and the Dungeons & Dragons (3rd Edition) game that it is based upon, are built on top of the "d20" Roleplaying system.  That system gets its name from the fact that it is basically centered around the fact that essentially every action that requires a die roll uses a twenty-sided die (d20) to determine the result.

The general formula for making a check is:[INDENT]d20 + modifiers -VS- The action's difficulty class (DC)
[/INDENT]The difficulty class (DC from here on out) is a measure of how difficult the task being attempted is -- the higher the number, the more difficult the challenge.  As such, a higher net result on your modified d20 roll is always better than a lower result.  To succeed, the modified d20 roll has to meet or exceed the target DC.  In most cases, this is treated simply as a "pass" or "fail" result, although a small subset of tasks will look at how much you beat (or missed) the DC by and adjust the results accordingly.

Every task has a DC.  Every task.  Here are some examples of various tasks, along with how the roll modifiers are calculated, and how the DC is calculated:
  • Combat: The DC of the attack roll is the target's armor class plus any situational modifiers, for example: 10 (base) + 2 (natural) + 8 (full plate) + 2 (large shield) + 1 (DEX bonus) = 23.
[INDENT]The attack roll is d20 + your base attack bonus (BAB) + modifiers: d20 + 5 (BAB) + 2 (STR bonus) + 1 (weapon enhancement) = d20 + 8.
[/INDENT][INDENT]To hit the target, therefore:
[/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]d20 + 8 >= 23
[/INDENT]In practical terms, this means the d20 roll must be 15 or higher.
[/INDENT][INDENT]However, consider possible modifiers to the situation -- you could deny the target it's Dexterity bonus by surprising it -- that would lower the DC by one to 22.  The target may have the Dodge feat -- if it is attacking you in turn, the DC goes up by one.  If you're operating under a "Bless" spell, you get an extra +1 modifier to your roll.  There are many combinations, and thankfully, the computer takes care of them here.
[/INDENT]
  • Saving Throws: Many saving throws, such as against poison, have a simple, fixed DC, e.g. in general, a Fortitude save vs. Poison would require to resist the poison:
[INDENT][INDENT]d20 + Fortitude save + modifiers >= Poison's DC
[/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT] In most cases, there are no modifiers, but as an example, a Druegar character would get a +4 racial bonus against poisons, which would be added to his/her d20 roll as a modifier.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Saving throws for spells or spell-like abilities have more variable components.  First of all, you need to know which saving throw to use (Will, Reflex, or Fortitude), then you add in the appropriate modifiers.  On the other side, the DC is generally calculated as 10 + spell level + ability modifier + other modifiers; e.g., a Wizard with INT 16 and the Spell Focus feat, casting a 3rd-level spell would have a save DC of: 10 + 3 (spell level) + 3 (INT bonus) + 2 (spell focus) = 18.  On your side, you may have Feats, racial bonuses or be under the effects of spells or spell-like abilities that add to your saves.
[/INDENT][INDENT] Again, all hail the NWN engine for handling the math for you behind the scenes.
[/INDENT]Now, a subset of tasks involve going against someone with a competing goal.  These are called "opposed checks".  For an opposed check, there is no set DC, but rather, the target also rolls a d20 + modifiers, which then becomes the DC of the task.[INDENT]d20 + modifiers -VS- d20 + modifiers
[/INDENT]When handled by the engine, a tie on an opposed check goes to the initiator of the action.

Example opposed rolls:
  • Buying from a merchant: This is an Appraise check on both sides, i.e.:
[INDENT][INDENT]d20 + Appraise ranks + INT bonus + modifiers -VS- d20 + Appraise ranks + INT bonus + modifiers[/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT] This is one of those rare cases where it isn't simply pass/fail -- the larger the difference between the two modified rolls, the more variation you will see in the listed prices.
[/INDENT]
  • Stealth: Trying to sneak by someone triggers two opposed checks -- a Hide vs. Spot check and a Move Silently vs. Listen check.  You must succeed on both to remain undetected.
One problem on opposed rolls in NWN is that Charisma-based skills don't really have a good established "counter".  In pen-and-paper D&D, there is a Sense Motive skill that is very useful in this regard, but it's not an NWN skill.  In general, try to choose the most reasonable counter (though of course, when dealing with a DM, the DM will tell you want he or she wants you to do).

Situational Modifiers

The game engine will take care of normal mechanics for you.  However, you, the DMs, and the other players have a lot more flexibility in what can be done via roleplaying.

Going back to the stealth example above, what types of things could affect the results beyond just the dice rolls?  Well... consider two scenarios:[LIST=1]
  • You're trying to skirt past someone on the street who really isn't looking for you, but you just don't want to be seen
  • You're trying to slip past a sentry into fortress; but the sentries are on high alert because they are told someone is going to try to sneak in.
Clearly, the second case should be much, much harder than the first, even if the "target" has the same Listen/Spot ranks and skill modifiers in both cases.

So... how much should that difference be?  There's the rub... it's pretty subjective.  Of course, on a DM quest, you don't have to worry about it too much -- that's the DM's job.  Playing against the "environment" is handled by the computer.  Players rolling checks against each other... ah, that's where the fun begins.

PC vs. PC, or not vs. PC, That Is The Question

In general, non-quest roleplaying, the dicebag can be generally used two ways:[LIST=1]
  • To simulate an interaction between two or more PCs
  • To provide emphasis to a particular PC's actions
Case #1 must always be consensual -- never, ever try to "force" another player into acting or reacting without clearing it with that player (generally via "tells") in advance.  When making opposed checks of any sort, agree on the checks to be made and any modifiers to use prior to "rolling" any dice.  

Example:[INDENT]Player A decides to have her character try to intimidate Player B's character; in "tells", A contacts B and tells him what she wants to try.  Player B can tell her "no thanks", in which case Player A should back off.  Otherwise, Player B responds back with something like... "OK, I'll use my character level as a basis instead of making a skill check... I also think I should get a +5 modifier as my character would be unlikely to be intimidated by an elf".  They continue to negotiate on what's reasonable until both agree, at which point the die rolls are made and the players react according to the results.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Note that while this is going on in "tells", the characters can be having a public shouting match at each other that everyone else sees.  Just be patient with the slow typists.
[/INDENT]In case #2, this is more of an ad-hoc case of just trying to add "flavor" to a characters actions.  It doesn't require coordinating with other players, but at the same time, the other players do not have to react to the result.  Let me use a real example; the names are changed to protect the innocent.[INDENT]Three characters, Alice, Bob, and Carl are out adventuring.  Alice has been RP'ing that in periods of extreme stress, her body is taken over by another being/personality.  Alice and Bob are an "item".  Carl is big dumb guy with an axe who's a friend to both Alice and Bob.
[/INDENT][INDENT] So, the group runs into big trouble, and gets smacked down pretty hard.  Alice comes back from her bind point and marches straight back to the problem area, followed by a worried Carl.  (Bob survived the devastation and was running for his life.)  When the immediate threat was taken care of, Alice's "alternate persona" was still in control, mocking Bob and Carl (mostly Bob).  Carl, not know what else to do, waves his axe and tries to bully the "thing" that took over Alice.  (Check Intimidate: 9 + 6 skill ranks - 2 CHA penalty = 13)  A reasonably intimidating stance taken by the big guy, but to no avail.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Alice, still "possessed", marches off.  Carl decides to comfort Bob, and tell him everything is going to be fine.  (Check Persuade: 1 - 2 CHA penalty = -1, yes, -1)  Clearly ineffective.
[/INDENT]In neither case, the die result from Carl's rolls was going to make a whit of difference to how the situation played out -- they were simply there to give a little added "oomph" to Carl's conversation choices.  No matter the roll -- natural 1 or natural 20, Carl's use of the dicebag wasn't going to change things, but nonetheless, they added some depth to the RP experience, because they were both in-character actions, and gave the other players something to react to, if they chose to.

Dicebag Etiquette

On a DM quest, do what the DM asks of you, when she or he asks it of you.  Period.  If you want to try something, ask first (privately).

If other players are suddenly making dicebag checks, that isn't a good reason for you to just make roll of your own.  Always make sure you understand what you... or more specifically, your character... is doing before just blindly rolling.  Likewise, reacting to other player's dice rolls (or even your own, on a DM quest!) without being privy to why they are rolling is metagaming, as seen by (humorous) example.

In character-to-character interactions, don't just assume that the other player is going to abide by an opposed check without asking.  As bad as forced emotes are, forced reactions are just as bad.  The other player does NOT have to react via die roll, and does NOT have to accept your conditions/modifiers without discussion.  Short version: always ask first!

On the flip side, if someone is simply "emoting" die rolls, feel free to react to them in-character, but understand that you are not compelled to do anything just because someone issues an off-the-cuff Persuade check, for example.

In short, the dicebag is a powerful tool.  As with most powerful tools, it is dangerous if misused, so please always exercise caution.  (Eye protection is recommended but not required.)

Appendix: Using The Dicebag Via Conversation

This section is a work in progress... this statement will be removed when I think it's complete.

Now, you could just "use" the dicebag -- it's an item in your inventory, and you can use its special property to trigger a "conversation" that will let you choose what roll to make.  This is nice if you're not familiar with all of the options.  Also, it is strongly recommended to use the dicebag at least once, early on, for each character to adjust the settings.  Typically, you'll want the settings to be for "Local", which will let others near you see the results of your rolls.  On DM quests, you may want to set it to "Private", so that only you and the DM see the results.

An easier mechanism is to actually use the conversation parser -- the same parser that lets you type things like *sits* rather than having to choose the "Sit" option from the radial menu.  The general syntax for making a dicebag check is:[INDENT]*check xxx* -or- *xxx check*
[/INDENT]Where xxx is the name of the check you want to make.

For example, I want to make a Tumble check to simulate trying to roll away from someone trying to restrain my character.  Instead of gong through the dicebag "conversation", I can simply type in the chat window:[INDENT]*check tumble*
[/INDENT]And get something like:[INDENT]Tumble Check: 10 + 12 = 22
[/INDENT]Where the first number (10 in the example) is the d20 die roll, and the second number (12) is my current net modifier to Tumble (say, 6 skill ranks, +4 DEX bonus, +3 from items, -1 armor check penalty).  The check result is color-coded so that I can't "fake" a die roll by just typing it out.  Note that most checks can be abbreviated, but be wary of ambiguity -- is *check per* going to do a Persuade or Perform check?

Even better, though a couple of extra keystrokes, is to use "/o" to preface the check.  This, when used at the start of a chat line, turns the message into a "self-tell", i.e., a "tell" sent to you.  The check result still goes to everyone else, but the actual *check whatever* message doesn't.  For example, the chat log everyone else sees for the above example would read:[INDENT]Aeoleth Ellyn: *check tumble*
Aeoleth Ellyn: Tumble Check: 10 + 12 = 22
[/INDENT]However, if I used "/o *check tumble*" instead, all everyone else will see is:[INDENT]Aeoleth Ellyn: Tumble Check: 10 + 12 = 22
[/INDENT]
 

miltonyorkcastle

RE: You And Your Dicebag
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 11:10:24 am »
 For more information on the PC dicebag, checks, DC's, etc. visit LORE and check out the Glossary and the Game Systems listings.
 
 

minerva

Re: You And Your Dicebag
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2007, 12:40:55 pm »
A very good and timely article.  I want to stress that the little blue text above characters heads is not visible to your character.  React to your own dice rolls and the information given you by the GM and not someone else rolls.   to toggle the *ability check* to you and the DM only.  Caveat is that it does not work with the dDice rolls (i.e. d100) type the command again to toggle it back on.  Another Metagaming point is the act of rolling till you get a numbers you like.  GMs will generally ask for what they are looking for, when they are looking for it.  One other point in dicebag etiquette, as a rule in GM quests if the GM asks you to roll a ability check do not immediate switch into all your ability enhancing  gear then roll or if a bard or spell caster do not buff up then roll. Roll as you were when asked.  If you want to beef up then roll, use the DM channel and say... Izzy wants to try and sneak past that guard, can I prep and try?  The DM will let you know what is and is not acceptable.  In a player to player encounter always clear the item/spell issues up before you roll.
 

Gulnyr

Re: You And Your Dicebag
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2007, 12:59:17 pm »
Quote
minerva - 3/1/2007  3:40 PM   to toggle the *ability check* to you and the DM only.  Caveat is that it does not work with the dDice rolls (i.e. d100)
I believe silent checks work for any roll.  That may not be true; I haven't tried them all.  Rolling a d100 does work silently, though.  I did it recently with a self-tell when rolling for a spot on a quest (after forgetting to toggle back to public rolls).
 

minerva

Re: You And Your Dicebag
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 01:42:03 pm »
You see the number Gulnyr but I've had DMs say they never saw it, so I assumed it did not work
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: You And Your Dicebag
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 01:46:50 pm »
/o e toggle check_silent also toggles silent rolling.
 

Xerah

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    Re: You And Your Dicebag
    « Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 05:44:20 pm »
    Is there somewhere that lists all of these /o commands?  Maybe I missed it.

    In regards to dice rolls vs. PCs, I generally just drop a public roll and let the other character decide what to do with it and if it passed or failed.  This way you avoid two PCs standing there doing nothing for a few minutes talking about DCs and betters the flow of the RP.  Personally, I never use DCs, if someone rolls against me I just let happen whatever is going to end up telling the best story.
     

    Weeblie

    Re: You And Your Dicebag
    « Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 11:36:42 pm »
    You can try:

    /o C help

    For a description of some commands.

    BUT... Not all of them are there. Heh... For the rest, you have to dig in the forum and7or look at the changelog found here: http://nwn.layonara.com/NWNChangeLog
     

    Faldred

    Re: You And Your Dicebag
    « Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 05:14:25 am »
    Quote
    minerva - 3/1/2007  3:40 PM

    A very good and timely article.


    Thank you, it was inspired by the RP101/Q&A session I went to last weekend.  Some of what's above was covered during the session, but some of it is also a little more advanced that time allowed for.

     

     

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