Knockdown Feat

[Masterjack]

Ok I just want to get this straight.

Specifics for knockdown: A character with this feat can attempt to knock his melee opponents to the ground. The character makes an attack roll at -4, and if successful the defender makes an opposed Discipline check against the character’s Attack Roll. If the character wins, the defender is knocked to a prone position.

So is the attack roll 1d20 + Attack bonus or just 1d20? I'm trying to figure out how to become immune to knockdown. If it just 1d20 and I'm medium sized, then a discipine of 32 would make me immune to all knockdown/improved knockdown attempts correct?

That would be a Huge creature +8 with improved knockdown +4 + attack roll 20=32 against a medium creature with Discipline 32. I'm assuming the -4 is only used to see if they hit and not taken off for the discipline check.

Please show me where I'm wrong or make me feel better and tell me I'm right

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

To make a Knockdown attack, you simply roll a regular attack roll (1d20+BAB+Ability+Misc) with a -4 penalty. On a successful hit, the defender rolls Discipline, DC = final attack roll. If the defender fails the check, he or she takes damage as normal, and is knocked prone. If the defender succeeds, he or she simply takes damage as normal.

[s0ulz]

As the description states, an attack roll is made. So it's d20+AB vs. Discipline ranks. Quite frankly the only way to be immune, is to have the immunity.

Other than that, you need to have a discipline that is larger or equal to the attempting modified attack roll. That is not easy to achieve though...

[lonnarin]

Also, if you want to pursue Improved Knockdown, you need an intelligence of 13 or above.  The description for that inidicates that you are one size category higher than you actually are for the purposes of knocking others down, but in plain math, it just means you dont get the -4  anymore when knocking people down.  As a general rule, the bigger they are, the harder it is to make them fall.

[Filatus]

The AI in NWN causes creatures to normally not use knockdown up to a point where their AB is so much higher than the target's AC that they wouldn't even need it.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

What, Fil, you mean like something above CR 5 attacking Pyyran?

[Filatus]

Yes, Pyrran, I thought I was clear on that, but I shall repeat again: "up to a point where...  ...they wouldn't even need it."

[ycleption]

but in plain math, it just means you dont get the -4  anymore when knocking people down.  As a general rule, the bigger they are, the harder it is to make them fall.

Just to be clear though, the attack roll is still at -4, but then when making the check against the opponent's discipline, +4 is added back if you are one size larger.

[Filatus]

Actually, I think size modifiers are added to or subtracted from the DC for the discipline check.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Actually, size modifiers are added/subtracted to the attack roll, which just so happens to BE the Discipline DC.

[Filatus]

Pretty sure they aren't... because even if size might make a difference in the ability to knock someone down. It shouldn't make it easier or harder for them to hit someone with a KD as opposed to a normal attack.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, based on my understanding of PnP (which doesn't even use the same sort of thing to knock someone down) it's the first roll which should be modified. Not sure how NWN does it.

[ycleption]

I can assure you, even with improved knockdown, a medium creature attacking a small one receives a -4 on the attack roll in nwn.
Whether that roll then gets modified, or the opposed discipline check gets modified I'm not sure, although the description does seem to suggest the latter (not that it makes any difference that I can think of).

Like Fil said, it doesn't really make sense to do otherwise, since (for instance), a half-giant with improved knockdown could get a free +8 to their attack roll against halflings just for using knockdown instead of a regular attack. It's already a fairly powerful feat, without the -4 on the attack roll there would be no reason not to just spam knockdown and use it on every attack.