Character Flaws - Feat questions

[Smurfboy24]

I was hoping someone could answer this for me, or at least shed some light as to how the mechanics work.

It has been a VERY long time since I've played NWN or Layo for that matter.  I recently submitted a new character that I  modeled off a certain 'build' in the Bioware forums but made changes to reflect Layo LORE, etc.  In the build discussion it was pointed out that this Human Fighter/Cleric should take Dodge and Mobility within the first few levels to increase Dodge AC.  The problem arose when I discovered in Layo that wearing Full Plate completely destroys any notion of the Dodge AC bonus, as well as some skills like Hide, Sneak, Tumble, etc.  My character is quite the misfit and a trickster (Shadonite) so it seemed like taking these feats would justify his 'sneaky' behavior for RP purposes.  

Since the mechanics regarding this were not clearly known to myself until after my submission was approved I was wondering if someone had some insights on how this could be fixed or dealt with without needing to use a GP (I don't really understand the GP rule and my character is only level 6 so it's not too late to adjust his play style and continue without a requesting for relevel).

If this helps here is the original template from which I was basing the changes to make for Layo:

Fighter(4), Cleric(16), Human  *Yes, I know there must be a minimum of 5 levels per class*

Abilities:
STR: 13
DEX: 13
CON: 14
WIS: 16 (20)
INT: 13
CHA: 8   <--- *Is this where I went wrong?*

Leveling Guide:
01: Fighter(1) - Expertise, Dodge, Toughness
02: Fighter(2) - Mobility
03: Cleric(1) - Combat Casting, Domain Healing, Domain Travel  *I chose Travel and Trickery*
04: Fighter(3) - WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Fighter(4) - Improved Expertise
06: Cleric(2) - Zen Archery
07: Cleric(3)
08: Cleric(4) - WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(5) - Scribe Scroll  *Yes, Layo does not use this*
10: Cleric(6)
11: Cleric(7)
12: Cleric(8 ) - WIS +1, Extend Spell (WIS= 18 )
13: Cleric(9)
14: Cleric(10)
15: Cleric(11) - Craft Wand  *Yes, Layo does not use this*
16: Cleric(12) - WIS+1, (WIS=19)
17: Cleric(13)
18: Cleric(14) - Extra Turning
19: Cleric(15)
20: Cleric(26) - WIS+1, (WIS=20)

Skillpoints: 92
Concentration 23
Healing 23
Persuade 6
Spellcraft 20
Tumble 10 (20 invested)

I'm not looking for a powerbuild by any means, I just feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot so early in my character's career.  Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.  :rolleyes:

BTW, admins feel free to move this thread if it is in the incorrect location.

[Guardian 452]

With a Charasima of 8 dont bother with Extra Turning at level 18.

As far as the feats being wasted by wearing plate armor. Id say swap some of them for much more usefull things like Extended Spell (which I see you have at lvl 12) and Empowered Spell. You will never be upset for having Extended Spell... the earlier the better too!

If you plan on being a "Battle Cleric" Id keep Expertise for that nice +5 to AC while you have it on. However me personaly, I would not take Improved Expertise at your overall level 5. That is a -10 to all attack rolls.. you wont be able to hit water if you fall out of a boat LOL.

I am not on the staff that approves gracefull please but id say you have grounds to use one. To get changes made that you've already taken.... or.... Honestly getting back to level 6 is cake so just ask to be knocked down and start over?

Also you arent taking the Scribe Scroll and Scribe Wand feats are you? as you said they are not used in Layo at all so get something you will use.

If you plan on mining or cutting trees. Your character has 13 STR so id say go get Power Attack... it is a MUST for harvesting if you dont have high STR if you asked me.

G-452

[Smurfboy24]

G-452,

Thanks for the tips!  

I was wondering if I might pick your brain for more insights into 'battle clerics'.  Below are the abilities I started my character with:

Human - Fighter/Cleric

Abilities:
STR: 11
DEX: 13
CON: 14
WIS: 16 (20)
INT: 13
CHA: 10

Leveling Guide:
01: Fighter(1): Expertise, Power Attack, Toughness
02: Fighter(2): Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
03: Cleric(1): Combat Casting, Domain Trickery, Domain Travel
04: Fighter(3): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Fighter(4): Weapon Finesse
06: Cleric(2): Zen Archery
07: Cleric(3)
08: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(5):
10: Cleric(6)
11: Cleric(7)
12: Cleric(8 ): WIS+1, Extend Spell (WIS=18 )
13: Cleric(9)
14: Cleric(10)
15: Cleric(11):
16: Cleric(12): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
17: Cleric(13)
18: Cleric(14):
19: Cleric(15)
20: Cleric(26): WIS+1, (WIS=20)

Skillpoints: 92
Concentration 23
Healing 23
Persuade 6
Spellcraft 20
Tumble 10 (20 invested)

My questions are simple:

1)Should I even invest skillpoints in Tumble since Full Plate destroys it? or should I just drop to leather armor and RP my way through battle?  

2)13 Dex, is this too much for a cleric to have any benefit?  Original intention was for Dodge AC which is shot as of now... could pump CHA for the Extra Turning.

I'm just not sure I fully understand CHA versus WIS for clerics.  The more I look at this, the more I see a relevel happening *DOH!*

Thanks for any advice in advance!

[ycleption]

Answering strictly mechanically.

1) Tumble still provides 1 AC per five points, even if your chance to avoid attacks of opportunity are shot by the armor. There are probably better things to put you skills into (heal, spellcraft, social skills, etc), since its cross class and you don't get many points. If you prefer lighter armor, go for it, but it'll be tough with such a low dex.

2) No, since if you keep the dodge and mobility, you can get [lore]spring attack[/lore] which is a very useful feat, especially if you don't take tumble. In addition, you'll still get a handy point of AC from dex when wearing that full plate.

3) Wis is your key stat for spellcasting, which is what will keep you alive as a cleric. Cha is used for turning undead (which probably doesn't matter to you as a shadonite) and some domain powers, so it may or may not be important to you.

4) As a side note, you need at least five fighter levels, and you build only has four - in addition, it is not an absolute rule, but it is generally preferred that multiclass characters spread their levels out relatively evenly across the first twenty level.

[minerva]

If you don't want to be carrying around components you need to think of getting Eschew Materials I at least  (available as a feat when you can cast level 3 spells) and Eschew Materials II  (taken after having Echew I and able to cast level 6 spells)

[Smurfboy24]

Thanks for the clarifications and the tips!  I don't think i'll need to apply for a GP after all

[ycleption]

Would definitely agree with Minerva on taking eschew - since your dex and str and almost the same, there's little mechanical reason to take weapon finesse, and since a bow is not one of Shadon's favored weapons, you might want to ditch that as well.

[Smurfboy24]

I thought weapon finesse was for small weapons, like daggers, which I use since it is a weapon of Shadon.  Would you recommend Weapon Specialization instead?

If it's the Zen Archery feat you mean I only took that since sometimes ranged is a must - I do have a few tricks up my sleeve

[ycleption]

[lore]weapon finesse[/lore] does function only with light weapons... but what it does is substitute your dex score for your strength score in determining your attack bonus. Especially since clerics can't cast cat's grace, you'll probably end up improving your str with gear and spells rather than dex, so it really won't help you much.

[Hellblazer]

Eschew is really a must For any caster, although for the level 7-9 spells most of the useful spells of a cleric are dealt with a consecrated amulet that can be done with one of your +2 or +3 to an ability score amulet.

Extended spell is really a plus too. Empowered is good, but I personally prefer Maximized. It always gives the maximum strength of a spell. While empowered you will be rolling the dice and might end up with a low roll, in a very important moment.

Unless you plan to use a bow, zen archery won't do much for you. IF you plan on using a bow a lot, then go for it.

And an other good one, knock down. If you have a decent ab + strength, then you will do well with knock down and imp knock down. It's a crowd management tool, when your spells didn't get them all.

[Guardian 452]

Your latest build you made has some errors in it (you cant take Power Attack unless you have STR of 13 or more)

my advice:

1. Get that 5th Figher level added before 20 (server rule there)
2. Take Extended Spell sooner. It doubles the length of all your duration spells! So a level 5 cleric for example has spells lasting as if they were a level 10 cleric!
3. Loose Weapon Finesse, get your STR back to 13 so you can take Power Attack. (if you plan to mine / cut trees at all it's a must)
4. Take Eschew 1 and 2 as soon as you can for each (you probably can get by with out Eschew 3)
5. Keep 13 Dex, or you loose expertise and that nice +5 AC boost
6. Choose if you want to be a "battle cerlic" or a suport type cleric/archer.. If you choose to suport/archer. Take Zen Archery... if you want to be right there in the thick of the fight... Zen Archery is a wasted choice.