Fatigue Effects of Using Magic

[Gulnyr]

I decided to break this out into its own thread because it's a separate thought than the original thread it was in.  The original thread is here, and this new thread is specifically about the posts [post=794882]here[/post], [post=794972]here[/post], and [post=795502]here[/post].

These are the important bits from there:

That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort. A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch. When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now."

To be honest, if I was writing a book on a Layo Quest, Sorcerers (Gandalf is "no conjurer of cheap tricks" but he has no spell book! he a sorc) would be worn out since they ARE putting effort into spells. Wizards are reading some words and making gestures.

Using magic in the NWN version is not exhausting, but that's a system thing., you just get your spells based on DnD rules and that's it. If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.

I was in bed last night, thinking about what I had posted. *points up*  I realized that was really only half a thought.  It's true that casters aren't RP'd as worn out after casting a lot of spells in a short period of time or after all their spells are exhausted, but it's also true that frontliners wearing heavy armor and swinging heavy weapons, fighting for their lives, don't get RP'd as being tired, either.  Apparently, being tired on Layonara is just an excuse to log out, or at least get out of a boring conversation, heh.

So today, I read what Shiff said as I'm thinking that magic may actually be exhausting, and I disagree with his statement, but not in a directly opposite way.  Whether a Sorcerer or a Wizard, the caster is still manipulating the same Weave.  They both use sounds and gestures and components to do the same things.  It takes the same effort from each (or the same lack of effort, if that's how it goes).  The difference is that a Wizard has to study and memorize how to do it each day, and the Sorcerer just knows how to do it.  If one is going to be more fatigued than the other, it's going to be the Wizard - from eye strain, heh.  

Then Ed's post made me think some more.  In a sense, aren't the spell limits a kind of mana reserve?  A Sorcerer can only cast this many spells because he's only got this much "magical stamina."  Does "magical stamina" have any effect on normal, everyday stamina?

The real questions here are:

• If it could be any way Leanthar wanted for his world, would using magic exhaust people physically the way running and swinging heavy weapons do?
  
• Would it be mentally exhausting?

I know what Ed said seems to answer that, but it's unclear whether it would affect both a physical stamina level and a mental mana level.

I'm not asking this to change the way anything is done.  I'm just curious.  If it turns out magic should be exhausting and you want to RP that, awesome.  If you don't, awesome.  It's good either way; things haven't been bad so far, right?

[Masterjack]

Good question... I would like to know the answer as well.

[lonnarin]

One of the main reasons I love Shadowrun so much is how they handle their spellcasting.  I too find the standard cast-and-forget system to be vexing and inflexible, even sorcerors are limited by sheer numbers and castings per day.  In Shadowrun, you could cast spells all day long at the intensity you want rather than being bottlenecked by d6s/level, spell levels and such.  Just whenever you cast a spell and choose the intensity, you need to make a saving throw against the strain of magic... cast a manaball at intensity 6 and you need to roll vs 7 stun, cast a manabolt at 2 and it's just vs a 1 stun.  The more you pump into the spell, the more likely it is to hurt somebody and to tire your mage out.  Also, when you get injured or tired in the game, its progressivley more difficult to do perform ANY actions.  So your elf sorceror can save the day by setting off a fireball in the middle of a Chevy dealership and wipe out 20 gangers in one blow, just shortly thereafter he's going to be crawling across the floor or passed out from the strain.  If you get really desperate and overpower a spell past a certain threshold, it not only knocks you out, but you can "burn out" where physicaly damage is added on top of that as your body strains to contain the massive bursts of mana.

I wish we could impliment a system along these lines for the next incarnation of layo.  It certainly beats cast-and-forget, spell points and certainly... warlocks.  grrrr, how I hate NWN2 Warlocks.

[Fatherchaos]

Hey, I happen to like NWN2 warlocks. Of course there is no need to start that debate here XD

All in all, I am inclined to agree on my part that the Shadorun magical system thus far has been the best representation of magic use to me. And I dare say that with the upcoming Layo MMO L will likely have a chance to envision magic as he sees it.

I do believe that magic use, just like swinging around the Gib Stick of Kobold Impalement, should be both mentally and physically exhausting. Shadowrun has a great system to represent this. Other games, such as my beloved Hackmaster, also have a fatigue system to represent both magic use and physical exertion under one measured meter. Shadorun carries a more accurate representation to scale (use a little, exhaust a little) where as Hackmaster tends to use more of a step function (expend enough energy to reach the next threshold - get stuck at that threshold penalty till rested)

[Dorganath]

Well if you look at the big picture, mechanically speaking, then the cast-until-you-run-out-of-spells model fits neatly into the swing-a-big-heavy-sword-in-full-plate-all-day and run-all-the-way-across-a-continent-in-fifteen-minutes model.

Now, if you want to talk about the "reality" of the world, then yeah, magic should wear you out, just like any sort of exertion would. As one gets better and better at magic, one's endurance increases, as a seasoned warrior would be able to swing a sword for longer than a trainee.  But both should cause fatigue and times where a group stops to rest should come because people are tired, not because "our wards are fading."

Now, I have seen people RP fatigue rather than mechanical spell timers, which is pretty cool.

I've also been in quest situations where a user of magic expends a lot of energy for a task and been asked by the GM to not cast for a good long time as a result.  I've personally toggled CHA jewelry on a sorcerer to simulate the same effect, since Bioware has a lovely bug related to CHA-based casters and buffs/debuffs.

So yeah, the short answer is these things should be tiring, and if you get to the bottom of your spell list, you should be pretty worn out.