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Author Topic: Imp Whirlwind  (Read 1112 times)

wild_down_under

Re: Imp Whirlwind
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2012, 10:24:48 pm »
With all death spells (Wail, Power Word, Weird), they are powerful but there is always something to save you from the death (immune to death spell, immune to mind spells, true seeing, or just having high fort/will saves).

For Devastating Crit, you have to make the Fortitude Save or you die. However, those who pursue to get that feat is probably a melee character, with a tons of strength, have 4 attacks per round, and probably have a decent crit range (17-20), or even better if they are Weapon Master or use a Scimitar or Falchion. It is also safe to assume their attack bonus is high. With 4 attacks per round, that melee character has a chance to kill you instantly with each attack. And they never run out of attacks. Spellcasters do run out of spells. That is where I believe the advantage is.
 

Dremora

Re: Imp Whirlwind
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2012, 04:27:09 am »
Yes, though my question is, how many death spells from a mage have not got high DCs, with added perks that dont require you to even click on them.  Most mages would put in points or take spells from a specialized type of magic to increase their DC. Just like a warrior, now if your fighting a high level warrior with a 15-20 or even 13-20 crit range.. again that only actually counts if your AC is insanely low, and thats nobody else's fault but yours. Now if the levels are high enough or so uneven that their AB makes a laughing stock of your AC, then you've got to realize they'd probably kick your  in melee without needing an instant-kill. If you were a mage and got hit in melee.. give the guy something, between all your buffs, holds, concealments, shieds, instant kills, and other effects that come with raw dmg output.. god forbid they get some even ground beyond having to start PvP right next to you. Mages and even combat bards can sometimes be hell to any melee character, even more so with layonara's PvP rules.
Now again in PvP, immunities.. how many warrior-builds without mage levels can throw up wards, none without UMD? How many wards are on offer, not many.

Moving to PvE, I see what you mean, they can do it over and over provided they can hit the opponent easily.. however layonara's spawns arent exactly easy kills, and a mage can do the same thing, all he need do is rest after he's unloaded his 5-6 death spells or more if he likes variety. And he'll cruise through mobs in much the same way; you could say thats poor sportsmanship, but then again.. if you give people the option, why would'nt they take it against spawns that might actually end up putting their char in dire risk of deletion before they want them to be? Okay fine, a mage can choose not to and once you've bought dev crit, its automatically on. Fair enough, no counter for that particular point except thats probably why its subjected to all additional requirements for it to succeed.

Its an RP server ofcourse and its been argued before, that mages should have the ability and warriors should'nt; though if you think it through realisitically, if I hack a sword into your neck, thats you dead. Dev crit; there is a counter argument to that which I actually support but its beside the point unless your curious. Anyway I digress, Rp server, magic is supposed to be something feared, mages are supposed to be in minority compared to warriors. You can argue this, it makes sense.. and its fine by me, hell Arelith where I played before has NO dev crit, and it shows off just how tough casters can be when prepared, thankfully we can switch PvP on after brief RP and kill them before they ward, handy in the Underdark.. except every mage with a brain and enemies walks around warded as much as he can.
My point however is, you cannot say dev crit is overpowered, because its in response to all the death spells of caster classes. They have perks that ignore all the things that the dev crit feat is subjected to in order for it to work: concealment, LoS, base contact, epic dodge, AC. And mages have range at their disposal.

So yeah, all im saying is its not overpowered, it just works in situations like death abilities, and ofcourse gives us a hand in melee should be alone, since we lack the ability generally to cast as many protections as mages do unless multiclassed in a certain way. If you say however that it unbalances things in an RP world.. then yeah I can be persuaded to believe that (thats why layo raised the bar for it), just have a problem when people say its too overpowered to be used and two seconds later our level 30-40 warriors are paraylsed and death spell spammed or imploded and no matter what protections are up they get stripped and we die in the most boring ways imaginable (unless severly warded by a mage, or cleric.. ironic?).
 

drakogear

Re: Imp Whirlwind
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2012, 05:17:39 am »
Something tells me were getting a little off topic here. This started as a discussion about Imp. Whirlwind and now were debating about Dev. Crit. vs Instant Kill Spells... again?

Though I do agree that even with Dev. Crit. mages are still more powerful (especially Wizards and even more so Pure Wizards) With spell penetrations, spell focuses, and all the meta magic feats all making there spell even more powerful. Also a mage (about level 15 or so) probably wouldn't have to worry much about PvPing a warrior even at close range cas they already have atleast one of there first Instant death spells (Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death) and if the warrior has a low will save then he's dead with well... "a flick of the wrist" as they say.

With Dev. Crit. and Imp. Whirlwind already being epic (Level 21+) The mage already has full access to there AoE Instant Death spells (Circle of Death, Wail, Weird... take your pick.) Witch all can be cast at range and effect a large area. A warrior with Whirlwind (or even Imp. Whirlwind) and Dev. Crit would have to charge into the group, wait till they sarround him then perform Whirlwind with the given chance (AB, Crit. Chance, Fort Save) to instantly kill atleast one in that group. Being lucky if he killed all around him but even then it would only effect those near him.

Edit: Took a look through the spell list and the Instant death sells have Fort Saves from death not Will but regardless there is no saves from the damage from Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Imp Whirlwind
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2012, 01:39:47 pm »
Quote from: Dremora
Just like a warrior, now if your fighting a high level warrior with a 15-20 or even 13-20 crit range..


You actually can get that without suffering a lost to ac. It's just a multi class (that has no impairment on ac) two feat and the scimitar. Nothing prevents a fighter weapon master to wear a full plate, a tower or kite shield, and used a scimitar while having imp critical and ki critical. And whither or not he placed points in tumble, even with the armor the points will apply to base ac.

 

anything