Author Topic: Lawful-Half Giant (Read 1928 times)

Interia_Discordius · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:14:53 pm »

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I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.

People can go against their blood in real life because people are not the incarnation of an alignment. For example, in DnD, a Tanar'ri HAS to be CE because they are the plane's actual manifestation of that alignment. Furthering spawn from that, such as cambion/alu-demon and tieflings, have the ability to pick other alignments because their blood is diluted.

Giants are not a planar representation like the Tanar'ri or Baatezu, but I believe the same basic thought is used in their creation. Granted, I can't pull any examples because I've only thoroughly studied the planes (Like, I own and read every book regarding the planes

). I still believe that the just blood explanation can work, however. A giant is like a wild animal... they're chaotic, and MAYBE you can tame it to neutrality, but you can never teach it to follow the same laws and morals that drives the more developed races.

Eyvind · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:23:37 pm »

But would any such natural tendency carry over strongly into a half-breed? Considering all the other ways Half-Giants take after their human ancestry, I would think not.

Interia_Discordius · « **Reply #22 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:26:13 pm »

Half-breeds, I would say yes. You will find most examples of Tanar'ri spawn that is half blood to be the same alignment as their Tanar'ri mother/father. Proper care and nurture rarely work for something that is BORN to be as it is. You will still have the natural urges that are the biological development of the brain to contend with even if you want to be a, for example, lawful half-giant. The very fact these urges remain will keep them from being fully lawful... so they're locked out of it.

Eyvind · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:51:15 pm »

Quote from: LORE

Half Giants are as diverse as humans in alignment.

Quote from: LORE

Half Giants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than, say, Half Elves.

Quote from: LORE

However Human raised Half Giants have been known to worship any number of gods, reflecting the diversity among their human parents.

These lead me to believe that Half-Giants are nearly as malleable as any human child.

We still haven't touched on what some here have pointed out to be a crucial distinction:

Quote from: LORE

player character half-giants are only of the hill giant variety and thus cannot be lawful.

What makes Hill Giants different from other Giants?

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #24 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:53:45 pm »

SRD - Monsters G

=)

Drizzlin · « **Reply #25 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:12:02 pm »

Quote from: eyvind

Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be, I'd still like to push this some more.

I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.

You have never tried raising animals have you? You can not train a beagle not to hunt, it is in their blood, period. You can not domesticate a lion or tiger. They will always be dangerous and one bite from killing you. It is in their blood.

The Kitty is always cute until it rips your arm off...

orth · « **Reply #26 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:27:14 pm »

Alignment restrictions exist as trade offs for other properties of the races and for PCs to understand their roles as that subrace a little more.

Your argument is no different from saying "I want the extra feat that Humans get with Quick to Master because my halfling grew up with humans, look how my biography outlines this..."

An exception to the rule in a character biography is not going to alter the system dynamics that DnD/Bioware/Layonara have instilled.

You're trying to fit in a variation of the norm because it is plausible that it could happen. But why can't you accept that we disallow these variants to help the player understand the role and as a trade off for the bonuses that this player receives.

You want the traits that come with being a half giant, then you're going to have to play either Neutral or Chaotic. Is that not acceptable?

Aside from all this, as I told you on IRC, no one is going to change the coding that handles this restriction.

Also the few dozen people who already met this restriction would certainly be disappointed were we to change things at this stage.

Eyvind · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:30:59 pm »

Orth you are quite completely missing my point. This is not about my character. It stopped being about my character after our conversation in IRC.

I am asking about the fundamental traits of Hill-Giants and Half-Giants that are the basis for these restrictions. If you have them in place for players to better understand their roles, then it should be easy to explain. I only wish someone would.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #28 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:36:34 pm »

Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.

There are several weird things like that floating around. I don't know what kind of personality you have, but I can tell you I don't really like letting those things go. I want Layonara to be the best it can be, and leaving holes like that is just bad. But sometimes there aren't going to be any answers coming and there are going to be holes, and you have to let go, just so you don't burn yourself out. Hopefully, there won't be any holes left hanging inexplicably in the MMO.

orth · « **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:41:00 pm »

Fair enough, my apologies. If you're looking for a historic outline of the trials and evolution of the Layonara Hill Giant that has caused this genetic predisposition in them and their offspring Half-Giants then I refer you to EdTheKet. Send him a PM or hope he checks up on this thread.

Quote from: eyvind

Orth you are quite completely missing my point. This is not about my character. It stopped being about my character after our conversation in IRC.

I am asking about the fundamental traits of Hill-Giants and Half-Giants that are the basis for these restrictions. If you have them in place for players to better understand their roles, then it should be easy to explain. I only wish someone would.

Eyvind · « **Reply #30 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:45:05 pm »

Quote from: Drizzlin

You have never tried raising animals have you? You can not train a beagle not to hunt, it is in their blood, period. You can not domesticate a lion or tiger. They will always be dangerous and one bite from killing you. It is in their blood.

The Kitty is always cute until it rips your arm off...

Half-giants aren't animals, though are they? If they were they wouldn't be playable. The fact that they can make rational decisions -- however limited -- is what makes them playable, isn't it?

Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.

Quote from: Gulnyr

Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.

There are several weird things like that floating around. I don't know what kind of personality you have, but I can tell you I don't really like letting those things go. I want Layonara to be the best it can be, and leaving holes like that is just bad. But sometimes there aren't going to be any answers coming and there are going to be holes, and you have to let go, just so you don't burn yourself out. Hopefully, there won't be any holes left hanging inexplicably in the MMO.

Hah. Well. Barely a day has yet passed with this thread open, and if there is any chance of patching this hole then I will keep it up until it is.

In my opinion, if there is no good IC reason for something then that something shouldn't be. There are always other solutions to fix problems than arbitrarily assuming good but nonexistent reasons for an easy fix.

That said, this is not fundamentally what I meant this thread to be about.

Quote from: orth

Fair enough, my apologies. If you're looking for a historic outline of the trials and evolution of the Layonara Hill Giant that has caused this genetic predisposition in them and their offspring Half-Giants then I refer you to EdTheKet. Send him a PM or hope he checks up on this thread.

Thank you! I will do that.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #31 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:49:26 pm »

Good luck. I was speaking from experience as an aspiring hole filler, though, so, really, try not to overdo the trying.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #32 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:42:55 pm »

Quote

I don't want to hear that the only reasons are (1) that Half-Giant Monks are overpowered and (2) it would be tedious to make technically possible. I understand these two reasons and I am not arguing or looking for reasons for this to be allowed. I want to know what the lore reasons for not allowing it are.

The reasons for not allowing lawful half-giants are:
1) Half-Giant Monks are overpowered
2) it would be tedious to make technically possible
3) when we initially put them in, we were still D&D and followed the D&D alignments mostly. Now we're moving away from that, but will not change it because of #2.
4) there will be no Hill Giants in the MMO so no work will be done on them.

So, as you can see, there is none, like I mentioned on IRC yesterday, the main reason is #1 (and #2 which orth stated).

We will not be making any programmatic or coding changes to allow for a lawful half-giant to be possible in NWN. Nor will I make any lore changes to make a lawful half-giant possible, because of #4 (and not to mention that half-races in itself are no longer possible).

That's the best answer I can give you.

Thief Of Navarre · « **Reply #33 on:** January 12, 2009, 03:59:24 pm »

I dont know much about Layonara, but on reflect from other games/campaigns Ive played... technically nothing is improbable!

Perhaps good dark elves and lawfull half giants could be special awards for good (extremely good; bordering on being a company president for your advertising boards) roleplay!
I know Im thinking against hope here but Ive seen more really crazy characters on high roleplay servers before

The question is: Is it good roleplay or is it powergaming? Not to say you cant roleplay a statistically powerfull character *shrugs*

Eyvind · « **Reply #34 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:09:41 pm »

I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.

Weeblie · « **Reply #35 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:14:24 pm »

These alignments are restricted on creation only.

There's nothing preventing one from shifting from one to another by RP in game (except for Brownies which are completely alignment-locked; like if they would explode if they were to change to an evil alignment).

Eyvind · « **Reply #36 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:32:51 pm »

Getting conflicting messages here. What's the bottom line?

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:38:51 pm »

Quote from: eyvind

I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.

It's not a Design Flaw. Remember that Neverwinter Nights, the medium through which we play in the world of Layonara, is Dungeon and Dragons at the Core, Rule Set 3.0, and was not designed to make Layonara possible. It was designed as the game Neverwinter Nights. All of what has become Layo so far has been hard work for All involved, and trying to find a code to work around the Alignment issue for Half Giants is not something on anyones "must fix" list with an MMO in the works. Also keep in mind that when the MMO comes out, there will be no half giants, no half orcs, no half ogres or half elves. The only half-anything will be a Ling... a Halfling (and maybe a Quarterling aka Brownie). So really it's for now just a "this is how it is and it's not changing" sorta thing until the MMO, where it will be a non issue for stated reasons. This borders on asking why a Paladin has to be lawful good, when an order Like Rofirein's Knights, a Lawful Neutral God, can't match their Gods alignment.

Weeblie · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:39:07 pm »

Because the lawful Half-Giant restriction is very strict, not like shifting along the good/evil axis, you should not plan for a shift towards lawful.

Their restriction is almost as great as the ones for Brownies, and most likely would require something perhaps on a WL scale in magnitude?

Per default, you can accept is as "it will most likely not be approved".

ps. As with some other things, the rule is a "no", but there are always the "exceptions that confirm the rule" (i.e. possibly WLDQs).

orth · « **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:39:36 pm »

Wrong, the next time you log in if you were to make an adjustment from Neutral to Lawful, you would be booted from the game as part of the sub race application process. He could shift to 65 points I think it is before it'd be deemed Lawful, not certain of that number offhand though.

Quote from: Weeblie

These alignments are restricted on creation only.

There's nothing preventing one from shifting from one to another by RP in game (except for Brownies which are completely alignment-locked; like if they would explode if they were to change to an evil alignment).