Why is CN one of the easiest alignments to rp

[Eegxeta]

CN is one of the easiest alignments to play. Why do you guys say it is the hardest? True Neutral is the hardest.

[Hellblazer]

Well my guess is, because CN is only a step away from CE which is not allowed for PC on this server. So they want to make sure that someone who is approved from CN is able to roleplay CN without leaning too much in CE.

[darkstorme]

We never indicated that it was particularly hard to play, Eegxeta.  It is hard to play responsibly.  

A CN or Evil character could justifiably be said to be out for themselves, but it's not a license to do whatever you want.  That could be construed as griefing or simply irresponsible play, which would be detrimental to the community as a whole.  The restriction is there to better allow the GM/CA team to judge whether a player is versed enough with Layonaran lore and able to handle the responsibility involved in playing the alignment accurately but without making others' play less fun.

I would also disagree that True Neutral is the hardest alignment to play.  Lawful Neutral or Neutral Evil I would both judge as more difficult alignments; the first because you are obliged to follow a moral code but not to necessarily instinctively do the 'heroic' thing, the second because of the complications that can arise from playing a truly Evil character in a game where cooperation is necessary.

Regardless, as I said, it's not a matter of the "difficulty" of playing a given alignment that determined the alignment rules.

Edit: Hellblazer makes a good point as well - being one step away from CE does make it a more difficult line to tread.

[Alatriel]

I agree with darkstorme.  Chaotic Neutral is a difficult alignment to play responsibly.  It is probably the easiest alignment to abuse and just disregard everything and say that anything goes because of alignment.  However, as Hellblazer pointed out, that can quickly turn into playing a CE alignment if one isn't careful.  If you'll also notice on the rules it is restricted, but not as restricted as evil alignments.

I agree that playing TN is difficult.

I also agree that playing LN or LE is difficult.

For some, playing LG is extremely difficult.

For others, playing CG is extremely difficult.

Everyone is going to find some alignment either easier or more difficult than others.  The restriction isn't made on that fact, it's made on protecting the server and those who play here so that those that are here can grasp the concept of alignment and play each one responsibly.

[Dremora]

Personally TN seems very undecided on many things and is more sandboxy. Therefore I'd say its an easy alignment to play if you know your character concept. I'd also say its likely the start point of many characters who's experiances are likely to shape them one way or another. Or the reverse where something might make them step away from good or evil and they enter this grey true neutral zone.

Evil I suspect is only difficult due to whats been already said: once people know your evil, playing with others on a server where the minority is evil is hard. Or it may be difficult if you don't enjoy playing evil chars instinctively and just wanted to break away from the trend of neutrals and goods (or whatever the reason). I may however be biased since I've played drow since day one of my RP on NWN.

Chaotic Neutral is doing whatever you want for little reason other than curiosity, compulsion, urge, whim, fun, toss of a coin or because you were told not to do it (as I understand it: Chaos and neutrality). If you think about it its not that hard to actually RP. But yeah too much evil and you'll slip into CE, too much good and you'll slip to CG. It's basically all about you and what you wanna do and to hell with what anyone else has to say. I suspect plenty of teenagers can handle this xD. (j/k) But yeah its difficulty lies in making sure there is no pattern of good/evil actions.

Edit: Slightly misleading up there but I don't mean that being Neutral means you balance or good/evil actions equally though I'd say that can be viable if there is some sort of logical pattern behind the actions which makes the person neither one nor the other as a whole. But as milty says in his mini-profile. There are neutral actions as well.

[Dorganath]

For what it's worth, I've had a PnP GM outright ban the CN alignment in his games for PCs. In something like 6 or 7 years of gaming, I can remember only one time that he allowed the CN alignment to be played, and he watched that player like a hawk.

No, CN is not difficult to play, but as has been stated, it is difficult to play responsibly, not only for IC factors but OOC factors as well. For the latter, it's a matter of maintaining a certain playing environment here such that everyone can have their fun but not at the expense of someone else's.  We need to make sure that players are not going to act poorly and hide behind their character's CN alignment. This is the reason for a waiting period before someone may even qualify for being considered to play the CN alignment. It's not only a matter of time and exposure to our environment. It also allows us to evaluate a player's behavior to see if that person bears the maturity to not act in a way, through one's character, that is detrimental to others.

Beyond this, consider one very old tradition in table-top gaming: House rules. Layonara was started by Leanthar as a PnP campaign back in the 1980's. This is his game...his world...his creation...his rules. It is his opinion that CN needs to be restricted to those who can demonstrate the ability to play this alignment with maturity.  The same can be said for Evil alignments, and it is also the reason why CE is absolutely not permitted for PCs.

So while the nuances and ease of one alignment over the next can be an interesting (and sometimes heated) debate, the restrictions we have on alignments are a matter of house rules set down by Leanthar, Layonara's creator and owner, and are not a matter of the relative ease or difficulty in playing them.

[Dorganath]

Incidentally, since it was brought up, the description we have for True Neutral on LORE is going to be revised so that it's a bit more clear and to get rid of all the "may or may not" language that exists currently....which unfortunately leads some people to believe that TN is the "do anything you want" alignment.

[Aerimor]

Chaotic Neutral is the easiest alignment to play, just be incredibley self-interested or even greedy.

Neutral Good is the easiest alignment to play, just do what the 'average person' would do.

Lawful Good is the easiest alignment to play, just be the 'knight in shinning armor' and vanquish evil and always protect your honor.

Chaotic Good is the easiest alignment to play, just remember you always have to the driven by individual rights and 'do the right thing.'

Neutral Evil is the easiest alignment to play, just remember you're number one, no matter who you have kill to get there.

Lawful Evil is the easiest alignment to play, just remember the system is in place for the strong to use to their advantage.

Lawful Neutral is the easiest alignment to play, just remember the rules are the rules and everyone should follow the rules.

True Neutral is the easiest alignment to play, provided you have a very well defined set of moral codes set out before hand. =)

[Dremora]

Clearly the word 'easiest' doesn't mean the same to you as the rest of the world; i.e the most easy ~one~ .

Pretty good summary of all the alignment though, I'd say.

[Zoogmunch]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................interesting.

Ms Pigstrotter is one of my lot and is supposedly TN. She has no diety which i think makes it easier and her moral code tends to be based upon "what me da said" but in that respect is unwavering  ( and she'll give  thick ear to any and all who disagree). I think she wavers on the side of good and right but not necessarily law. But I do find her easy to play.

Rockhead is CN and is harder. Hes out for himself but reliant on charisma and charm to get his way which generally involves performing or helping  (being a bard). He'll run if needs be to save his skin. Doesnt follow anyones rules or leadership ( suffers the doesnt shut up trait) but again is easy to play i find ( i just ramble on ad infitum relying on decent tping skills). Again no deity  ( yet!).

My evil orc ( not telling his name still as you'll all be nasty to him) is LE and I find the hardest to play in character. I think its the Pyrtechon choice and it gives me a headache. To play in the layo world you really need to act with others and his raison daitre ( that looks wrong but too tired to find the french dictionary) is to see everything destroyed. I do think the religion thing complicates character playing the most. That said, ive had some fun with him if only one on one sessions rping with Geloo and acting a dumb orc responding either literally to his requests or misunderstanding and generally getting under his skin  ( but then being evil is annoying Gm's isnt it?..............isnt it?..............I'm sure it says that someplace).



anyway that was ten penneth from Zoog

[Eegxeta]

I have been playing Akhadie and I have been rping him in the way that just comes naturally to the character and Chaotic neutral seems to fit him. Akhadie is always doing his own thing even in a party he does things his way. The problem I'm having is when ever I go and try to do anything by myself I get killed which is another maelstrom I'm not getting into here. Akhadie is independent but realistic as he recognizes the need for other people. That is a responsible CN character. Another problem I'm having is I try to do things and all I'm ever getting is everyone screaming you can't do this you have to wait and I just want to play can't there be a system for CN rule where a player rps with a DM or something like that.

Also here is where it says it is hard:

Chaotic neutral is a difficult alignment to play and I want to make sure it is role played correctly.

-Leanthar

it is right there next to the rule in the lore.

[darkstorme]

I have been playing Akhadie and I have been rping him in the way that just comes naturally to the character and Chaotic neutral seems to fit him.

Among the rules you're expected to follow in Layonara is the fact that you are required to play the alignment for which your character is approved, pending an approved change in alignment.  If you are incapable of playing Akhadie as Chaotic Good, then you should have waited to submit him when you qualified for a different alignment.

Akhadie is independent but realistic as he recognizes the need for other people. That is a responsible CN character.

That's true.  As covered extensively above, however, despite the fact that it might be accurate roleplaying, it has no bearing on player responsibility.

Another problem I'm having is I try to do things and all I'm ever getting is everyone screaming you can't do this you have to wait and I just want to play can't there be a system for CN rule where a player rps with a DM or something like that.

As covered above, these are the rules.  Patience is one of the things required of new players.  If you have a criticism of the rules, you're welcome to voice it, but couching it as people 'screaming' doesn't paint the criticism in a great light.  If you'd like to suggest an alternative system, lay it out plainly... but be prepared to accept a "no", since everyone in Layonara is subjected to the same rules, and they have worked well.

Also here is where it says it is hard:

Chaotic neutral is a difficult alignment to play and I want to make sure it is role played correctly.

-Leanthar

it is right there next to the rule in the lore.

Note "to play".  As above, there is a difference between "roleplaying" an alignment, and "playing" it.  Player-side responsibility is the concern, not any difficulty inherent to the alignment.

Layonara's a great place, with great lore, incredible depth, and, frankly, neat mechanics.  But there are rules.

[Dorganath]

@Eegxeta,

Respectfully, I request that you stop trying to justify why you are right in this (and other) cases.  The Layonara setting has its own set of rules and expectations, both IC and OOC.  They are not that difficult once one spends the time and a little effort to get to know and understand them.

Whatever you might think of alignment or whether you should be allowed to play a character how you see fit (as opposed to how it was submitted and approved), we are making no expectations of you that we do not make for everyone else here.

I will quote you something else from LORE, specifically from the Player Rules page:

• It is each player's responsibility to read and know the server rules.
  
• Any character submission is an official acknowledgement and acceptance of these rules.
  
• At no point will there be in-character consequences to the breaking  any of these rules; no effects, no spawning of creatures, no going to  jail or being tersely corrected by NPCs. There will only be  out-of-character actions, which can range from simple warnings to  banning, the latter being the most severe of course and only at the  extreme abuse of the rules. Please do not associate in-character  consequences to out-of-character actions as they are completely  separate. In-character choices will generate in-character consequences  and likewise for out-of-character choices.

If you have any questions or concerns about these rules, please direct them to Leanthar in a private message.

Particularly, pay attention to the bolded parts. If someone comes to your house, you might want them to follow a certain set of "rules" (i.e. take off your shoes at the door, no food on the couch, etc.). You would be within your right to ask that of your guests, and they should not feel "held back" or "yelled at" if you make such requests. It is no different here.



Now, you are free to take this particular rule up with Leanthar, as suggested in this quote, or I could point him at this thread and he will surely say the same thing the rest of us have been saying. The rules about CN and about the expectations on playing one's alignment have been here for longer than I have, and I really doubt they are going to change because someone new came in and decided they were getting in his way.  However, you are welcome to try.


Everyone here, from the newest player to the ones who have been here the longest (including everyone on the GM staff) is expected to follow the same set of rules. They have served us well and they will continue to do so. If you find they are not to your liking or not suiting your play style, that's fair.  We can shake hands and part ways on good terms.  However, if you would rather stick around, then I believe you would do well to try and understand what we are saying and trying to accomplish here while making your best effort to follow the rules that we have established.  There's an entire community of people here, including our GMs, who can help you figure things out, but as a first step, you need to be willing to accept that Layonara may not be what you expect in all cases.

Layonara is not a D&D world, though we use the NWN game engine and mechanics for the time being.  Layonara is not a Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms setting, even though the game engine has a lot of artifacts of the latter.  Layonara is its own thing, with its own lore, history, cosmos, pantheon and so forth. Layonara is also a community of real people, and for that community, we have and maintain certain standards.  Rules on alignment are among them.  Please keep this in mind while you spend time with us.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Another alignment thread? I guess it's been a while since the last one.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree strongly with Aerimor's summation of the alignments, most particularly with True Neutral and Neutral Good.

Neutral Good is not the default state for a person. Most folks (myself included) don't feel empathy for others strongly enough to go terribly far out of their way on a regular basis. We see suffering on the news, or down the street, or through the grapevine, and we mutter about how it's terrible and go back to our dinner. In general, most people will do what seems like the best idea at the time, balancing ethical and legal norms with self-interest. They're not especially consistent, but neither are they especially spontaneous.

From Law to Chaos and Good to Evil, they're the sensible middle of the road that - in the non-adventuring populace - tends to keep its head down and go about its own livelihood. For adventurers... Every once in a while you get that odd duck that ADVOCATES the balance between the extremes, but generally you're left with those middle-of-the-road folks who do what seems like the best idea, overall.

Neutral Good, on the other hand, is neither particularly consistent nor particularly spontaneous - but shows notable and actionable empathy for others. Neutral Good is generally the alignment most societies hold as the paradigm, like the main character in a Christmas movie, but that's just not how most folks operate. The NG character will go out of his own way, put himself at risk, take suffering upon himself, to relieve the suffering of others.

A little more on-topic, though...

Chaotic Neutral is the alignment used to describe characters that tend towards spontaneity, but not towards particular empathy for others. Notably, however, they still tend to show SOME empathy, and most will try to avoid hurting others. They do whatever seems like the best idea RIGHT THEN, treating each circumstance as ethically unique.

This is obviously a bundle of tendencies that is difficult to manage in a group environment... Thus the restriction.

[Aerimor]

I think you missed my point Stephen and are looking to turn this into an alignment discussion thread.

My point was, "there is no easiest alignment and there are
'easy' versions of each to play."  After all there are sterotypes of each that we all know and love.

[mixafix]

Changes bait

[Eegxeta]

The way I rp Akhadie works with CG. I just CN fits him better. I also haven't done any DM quests with him so.