Give us useful and affordable buffing potions, scrolls, and wands :)

[Ravemore]

As a crafter I would disagree with making all of those things easily available. They should be expensive due to the effort involved in making them, and if the vendors undercut the crafters there would be no point in crafting really. It would also detract from the usefulness in magic using classes overall in my opinion. The only reason you would bring them along would to be glass cannons. Another balance item to look at is if mages no longer had to pick and choose carefully between buffing spells and offensive magics, they would be loading their slots up with predominantly damaging and offensive spells, which would make encounters with the monsters a little easier, particularly in areas where you cannot rest. As a mage, balancing spell loads can be a tricky task, especially when you are deciding how to maximize the dynamics of a mixed party. If buffs are not needed, it sort of becomes a "no-brainer."

I really like Lon's ideas myself.

[jrizz]

Except for a few spells the majority on my list above are lower level spells of which casters have many. Furthermore I dont want to see crafters undercut but 50k plus for high level scrolls makes them useless to PC that have high UMD, it is just plain old not cost effective. Heck 5k for a scroll would make it not cost effective on layo.

So what I am asking for are really mid powered (short list) buffs available in a cost effective way so they can be used for more then just dire emergencies. This in no way reduces or replaces casters, since caster buffs are way more powerful both in an expanded list and in the duration and power of the buffs (empower, extend).

I am just asking for some way to let groups or individual PCs do some things without the absolute NEED for a caster.

[jrizz]

Mage armor cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Bard 1, Wizard / Sorcerer 1

Flame weapon cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 2

Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4) - Caster Level(s): Druid 4, Ranger 4, Wizard / Sorcerer 4

Mind blank cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8

GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4) - Caster Level(s): Bard 3, Cleric 4, Paladin 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3

Haste cast at 10th level - Caster Level(s): Bard 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3

Resist elements cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 2, Druid 2, Paladin 2, Ranger 1, Wizard / Sorcerer 2

Neg energy protection cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 3

Death ward cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 4, Druid 5, Paladin 4

True seeing cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 6

Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4) - Caster Level(s): Cleric 3

Just to add levels to the list for clarity.

[SteveMaurer]

Except for a few spells the majority on my list above are lower level spells of which casters have many. Furthermore I dont want to see crafters undercut but 50k plus for high level scrolls makes them useless to PC that have high UMD, it is just plain old not cost effective. Heck 5k for a scroll would make it not cost effective on layo.

So what I am asking for are really mid powered (short list) buffs available in a cost effective way so they can be used for more then just dire emergencies. This in no way reduces or replaces casters, since caster buffs are way more powerful both in an expanded list and in the duration and power of the buffs (empower, extend).

I am just asking for some way to let groups or individual PCs do some things without the absolute NEED for a caster.

Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing.  Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial.  Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.

But asking around involves (gasp!) roleplaying.   Wouldn't want that.  



p.s.  Oh, and by the way, before you go complaining too much further, Darthi was selling her practice Flame weapon scrolls a while back for 100 Gold each, and had a terrible time getting rid of them.  Had to drop the price to 50 to move them.    So I'm not really getting the understanding of why you think things are priced out of reach.   What it really seems to me to be is the inconvenience of meeting up with someone, which I admit is a pain, but again that's more of a way that in-game things are run.   Not mechanical issues.

[jrizz]

Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing.  Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial.  Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.

But asking around involves (gasp!) roleplaying.   Wouldn't want that.  

I did say easy to get running around and collecting the crazy amount of stuff needed to make a few scrolls is very time consuming. If it did not take as much to make the scrolls on my list and they were worth using (meaning the durations and power were useful) then collecting everything needed would be well worth it.

Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scroll that my request would demand?

This is the same as healing potions. The lesser healing potions which are great to have created a demand that I dont think any crafters would be able to keep up with. That is why the best of the healing potions was kept out of the shops. So that the crafters still have something very worth while to sell. I can tell you that Wren carries well over 50 red heals at all times and that he has one crafter that he goes to for his supply.

If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.

NOTE: Wren did not mind gathering a huge load of wood for scrolls as payment for a nice pile of greater stone skin scrolls

[SteveMaurer]

NOTE: Wren did not mind gathering a huge load of wood for scrolls as payment for a nice pile of greater stone skin scrolls

Which she is dutifully working on (it takes quite some time to process, actually).

[Ravemore]

Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing.  Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial.  Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.

Agreed! I routinely "sell" or trade items and services for RP favors that do not involve coin in any way, especially when the materials are provided. If I have to go chase stuff down though, you better bring your wallet... LOL

[jrizz]

Really this is way off track of the thread. If your current crafting can supply the community with cost effective longer duration buffing by way of wand, scroll, or potion and can do so in mass quantity then great But I dont think that is the case
 
 To restate:
 
 

Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scrolls, potions, and wands that my request would demand?
 
 This is the same as healing potions. The lesser healing potions which are great to have created a demand that I dont think any crafters would be able to keep up with. That is why the best of the healing potions was kept out of the shops. So that the crafters still have something very worth while to sell. I can tell you that Wren carries well over 50 red heals at all times and that he has one crafter that he goes to for his supply.
 
 If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.
 
 

[SteveMaurer]

Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scrolls, potions, and wands that my request would demand?
 
If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.

Well to address last things first, many low level Scrolls are available.  You can go to any "Archanist" and pick up a Flame Weapon scroll, if you're willing to pay the price.   They're a little too expensive for my taste, but not unavailable.

Second, I think you need to separate the "crafting" from the "gathering" markets.    If Wren wants to buy a box of eggs (4,000T), two boxes of honey (1500T), 40 Fire Opal dusts (4000T), and 35 mahogany scrolls (3000T), Darthi will happily crank out 30 or so Greater Stones for him for very little cost (or certainly less than the 300,000T that Chakar would charge) - even after it becomes trivial to her.    And the reason is this: the actual scribing doesn't take much time at all.

But because gathering does take time, this is also acts a natural limit on Wren's seeming intention of becoming, for lack of a better term, a "Scroll wizard" - meaning someone with all the advantages of being able to cast spells without any of the considerable disadvantages of playing a spellcasting class.

And I'm just not in favor of that.

My position is that using scrolls in lieu of having an arcane magic user in your party should be possible, but should also be neither easy nor particularly cost effective.    Or else things will be unbalanced in the other direction, which would be equally as bad.

[Ravemore]

True, it did go off on a little bit of a tangent there, and I apologize. I guess my feeling in short is it would indeed encroach on the livelihood of many scribers and infusers, as well as lessen the role of the spell classes in general, and possibly impact some aspects of balancing as I have already alluded too previously. It is something I would not be too keen on supporting.

You do have some good and valid points. I just don't think that making all of those buffs cheap and in large quantities at the vendors is the right answer to the problem. I think Lon's suggestions in making the items more usable so they would be looked at as money well spent versus "pulling the handle on the slot machine" to see if they work or not is a better starting point in addressing a workable solution. I'm not privy to the development side, but it seems improbable to me that 5 or 6 more custom items added to the pallet would make it come apart at the seams. Then again, I'm not sure how close it is already to coming unraveled.

[jrizz]

Once again the scrolls that are available are for the most part useless for use by anyone other then another wizard for filling their spell books. This is due the scrolls being cast at too low a level. Also as to becoming a "scroll wizard" what I am asking for is only the most common buff spells. Yes many of them can be bought in shops. Do you have any idea why almost no one uses them? Go take a look at the level they are cast at.
 
 If the field was truly balanced I would not be asking for this but it is not. And as stated by Chongo in another thread one of the only ways to even the field is to go area by area and change almost all the spwans. This is a huge amount of work. What I am asking for takes NOTHING away from casters but does give other classes a BIT more freedom. Please please please dont keep trying to make this about taking something away from casters since it does not. And as for crafters it will make a few crafts that currently serve only a very very small market much much more profitable.
 
 When was the last time someone put in an order for potions other then healing? or scrolls not for a spell book? or just about any wands?

[SteveMaurer]

Once again the scrolls that are available are for the most part useless for use by anyone other then another wizard for filling their spell books. This is due the scrolls being cast at too low a level. Also as to becoming a "scroll wizard" what I am asking for is only the most common buff spells. Yes many of them can be bought in shops. Do you have any idea why almost no one uses them? Go take a look at the level they are cast at.

When was the last time someone put in an order for potions other then healing? or scrolls not for a spell book? or just about any wands?

Well we're in agreement then.   I asked Dorg to raise the default casting levels - at the very least on all the spell effects that don't scale in power (just duration), which would affect scrolls, wands, but presumably not monster effects.  I hope he's at least considering it.

I actually think it would be possible to slightly raise some of the other spell effects that do scale without harming the play balance too much.   The Flame Weapon effect, for instance might be raised a bit.

Just not necessarily to the level you're asking.   Or at least, not all in a single update.   I also don't want a 10th level wizard offering to flame the warrior's weapons, only to be told "Nah, you can't do it nearly as well as these cheap scrolls can."

[davidhoff]

While on the topic of potions, scrolls and wands, I'd like to see wands opened up to allow for more spells.  Right now you can only infuse very low level spells and only a few higher ones up to level five.  In particular, I'd like to see mass haste added as a spell that can be cast via a wand.

[akata]

While I'm not against anything changes that would move the balance between caster/none caster towards the none casters, then adding better scrolls would also have the little side effect of giving characters more items in their inventory. I think we all suffed the lag spike that happens when a "collector" logs in, would it be wise to add more items to peoples inventory?

[lonnarin]

While I'm not against anything changes that would move the balance between caster/none caster towards the none casters, then adding better scrolls would also have the little side effect of giving characters more items in their inventory. I think we all suffed the lag spike that happens when a "collector" logs in, would it be wise to add more items to peoples inventory?

That's an issue of personal inventory management on a caseby case basis.  If smebody's a packrat, then it doesn't matter how many types of items there are out there, he will have a bag ful of the items readily available in equal number as he would have before the new items were intoduced.  15 Healer's Hugs, for example.  Remove the healers hugs from the database and everybody out there and he'll just have 150 heal potions, 550 bandages, 8000 sprigs of aloe and 54 million Athus Touches.  Meanwhile lag-considerate peopl such as ourselves would still have nice, streamlined, spartan inventories, just tha they would consist of cooler items.

Just look into a packrat's inventory and you'll see what I mean.  Balls of string, guano, chicken blood, bits of birch bark, corn.  It doesn't matter the value of the item, simply the obsessive compulsive desire to loot everything not nailed down.  And if it is nailed down, we just use ye olde crowbar to pry it up and keep a handful of rusty nails that come with it.

[Xiaobeibi]

I am not sure I have met many "glass cannons" out there....  

So I can appreciate the motivation for wishing for easy and portable buffing, but I think there is an inherent danger in it.

When the new cheap and highly effective healing was brought out it ruined much of the joy I had out of Galathea (heal domain cleric). I am quite familiar with the argument for the cheap and effective healing - so no need for a discussion, but it took away what was special about her and the feeling that she made a difference.

I am sure many rogues feel the same way about the pixie familiar. It too duplicates a core ability (or specialty) of a class and in the same way it devaluates the need and use of rogues.

"All ability stats cast at 15th level
Mage armor cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 15th level
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4)
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4)
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 15th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 15th level
True seeing cast at 15th level
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4)"

When I look at this list I shudder. Tell me what's left of the cleric then (Apart from a lower price)? We already got raise dead scrolls, lots of healing and now all the wards...

I am sorry, but I strongly feel this is going the wrong way about it.

[cbnicholson]

I am sure many rogues feel the same way about the pixie familiar. It too duplicates a core ability (or specialty) of a class and in the same way it devaluates the need and use of rogues.

 Thank you, Gal..Ben despises pixies for that very reason..they want his job! :p

Sorry if this sounds blunt, Jrizz, but time after time I see your posts it seems to me you want the same thing..A fighter with the ability to cast wizard and cleric spells!  This can be done with the current system but there are serious trade offs.  Are you willing to make those trade offs?   I'm with Gal on this one, making the aid other classes bring to the party easier to obtain is the wrong approach.  There's a reason Ben collects priests/Priestess and wizards..they are handy to have along!

[darkstorme]

@Jrizz: As Dorg mentioned, any "cast spell" abilities not in the toolset would either have to be overwritten (which would be unfortunate due to its effect on the skins on hundreds of Layo's creatures) or be extensively modified to include new abilities, and create new items to go with them.

When I initially read your list of spells you'd like to see, I was fairly certain that at least half of them were not available at the levels at which you were looking for them.  Included below is your list with the available levels marked in bold beside them.

All ability stats cast at 15th level (Available in the toolset)
Mage armor cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 2nd)
Flame weapon cast at 15th level (Available at 17th level)
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4) (Highest level in toolset: 7)
Mind blank cast at 15th level  (Available in the toolset)
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4)  (Highest level in toolset: 10)
Haste cast at 10th level (Available in toolset)
Resist elements cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 10)
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level (Available in toolset)
Death ward cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 7)
True seeing cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 9)
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4) (Highest level in toolset: 5)

So five out of twelve are available as it stands, the rest would require the rather laborious process Dorg outlined above.  Strictly FYI - my other thoughts on the subject will follow shortly.

[jrizz]

@Darkstorme Thank you for looking that up in the toolset! I think what you have outlined as available (and highest level in toolset) would do just great. They would still give a non caster a bit more freedom. As a question did you check this on potions, wands, and scrolls?

@cb you are dead wrong about my intentions. What I really want is more balance but I am trying to find ways to get that without having to have more classes "nerfed" or "buffed". The nerfing and buffing of classes take a lot of time and more often then not fails to hit it intended mark. Furthermore when was the last time I asked for non casters to have caster abilities? Maybe you are referring to the forgotten feat of Dev Crit that was nerfed oh so many years ago and never brought back even after many many spells got much more powerful. That is not a spell like ability but the very wise makers of NWN did put it in as an equalizer to deal with the caster/non-caster power balance issues. Diving in deeper to my rant this would not be an issue if we had a much larger community logged in but for the most part we have less then 20 folks on both server most of the time. So getting a party together that fits your level is not as easy as you make it sound. And you were not being blunt you were just being dead wrong and trying to misdirect this thread for some reason.

I really did not want to get into the caster vs non-caster thing but here I go. There is no one that can deny:

1. The power gap on layo (looking holistically) between casters and non-casters is huge.
2. Regular NWN does not suffer from that issue.
3. The only conclusion is that in our attempts to balance things we actually through things way off balance.

You really have to look at the big picture not just PC to PC but how each PC can operate on Layo and how the Layo spawns have evolved to meet the demands of more powerful PCs. The power to power ratio of PCs to spawns expects a full range of buffs on all PCs this means a caster is EXPECTED to be there. So we have completely negated non caster groups. But caster only groups work just fine. The balance is off, everyone knows it, we need to find a easy way to bridge the gap!

There have been many suggestions most did not make the cut. Here are some:

1. Make melee class only weapons and armor much stronger
1.a The counter was by doing that you make my caster less needed
2. De-nerf dev crit
2.a No real counter given except that it is too powerful to be able to kill a whole group of bad guys in one round.
3. Re-build every spawn making the number less and adding highly spell resistance bad guys to every group.
3.a This was done in a few areas and worked very well but the workload to do all areas is too much
4. Give us some decent, affordable (remember the nerfing of gold drops!), and easy to get common buffs.
4.a The counter is by doing that you make my caster less needed.

[Dorganath]

As a question did you check this on potions, wands, and scrolls?

They all use the same set of items properties.