Give us useful and affordable buffing potions, scrolls, and wands :)

[jrizz]

Many time we have had the discussion about melee vs caster balance issues. Some good stuff has come out of those discussions. I dont want to bring any of that back up again. But I do want to relay a little info. Wren was out with a mage the other day and they were fighting things. The mage had to log off and did so before resting, so Wren still had all the buffs (GWM, STR, CON, DEX, SR, TS, mage armor, haste, and a few others) up. So I took him to fight a bunch of giants that would normally mash him into a pulp. He did very well, he defeated them all but still had a use a few healing potions in the mix.

This got me thinking. On other servers I have seen full array of buffing potions, scrolls, and wands made available and at affordable prices. Scrolls made by higher level mages were cast at higher levels and there were potions that went up to level 15. The shop potions went up to level 10 (not all but at least the ability ones for sure) and the crafted potions went up to 15.

Now of course having casters to buff you up and rain magic/holy/song death down on your foes is always the best way to go. But how much would it hurt to have access to buffing potions, scrolls, and wands that had some decent power to them? I am only talking about buffing so for melees they still have to get down a dirty

The best potions we have are Speed and Invisibility. The Layo Speed potions run out so fast they are mostly used for emergency escape purposes. The invisi ones last longer but they are expensive so they are also saved for emergency use. If you have a very high UMD then scrolls are ok but they have two drawbacks first the mid to high level are priced so high that regular usage is not cost efficient and second many of them are cast at low levels so as to make them useless. As for wands we have very few that are useful at higher levels.

How hard would it be to add buffing potions, scrolls, and wands at least to the shops for a while to see how it goes?

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I see what you're getting at, but I personally would be hesitant about bringing something like this into the game. Layonara encourages RP and partying up. RP mostly doesn't happen when people are not in a party (solo'ing) and implementing buff potions would encourage melee characters to solo - or at least it would make it possible, instead of having to walk into town and see if one can RP their way to a group adventure

[Lynn1020]

Maybe require less in crafting them as well?  Takes a lot of items in alchemy and scribing.  Amanda is trivial in both and it is almost useless now. With the new heal potions sold in the temples no one buys the red potions from crafters. Also the prices of selling scrolls are crazy due to all the work it takes to make the required Greater Scribing Scrolls, Lucinda touches and everything else needed to scribe them. The only useful scrolls that are sold are the raise dead and that is because they are not found in drops or temples.

[jrizz]

I see what you're getting at, but I personally would be hesitant about bringing something like this into the game. Layonara encourages RP and partying up. RP mostly doesn't happen when people are not in a party (solo'ing) and implementing buff potions would encourage melee characters to solo - or at least it would make it possible, instead of having to walk into town and see if one can RP their way to a group adventure

I fully agree with you but as some other threads have shown when you have a smaller community a bit more soloing starts to happen. Melee classes are at a disadvantage in the ability to solo or even just go out with a melee group due to the lack of buffs. There have been suggestions about improving armor and weapons to make up for it but just adding potions, scrolls, and wands (as stated above) would solve this. Also it would not make melee types over powered as it is only buffing and they still need to get in close and personal.

Having a good group is always preferable and way more fun but giving melee types a bit more reach in the solo category would be great. Casters have it and this idea would give melee types I bit more of it

[Dorganath]

How hard would it be to add buffing potions, scrolls, and wands at least to the shops for a while to see how it goes?

Not hard, but then there's lesser incentive to craft them.  Especially in alchemy, if most of the prime products are available in vendors, then the craft is nearly worthless.

Maybe require less in crafting them as well?  Takes a lot of items in alchemy and scribing.  Amanda is trivial in both and it is almost useless now. With the new heal potions sold in the temples no one buys the red potions from crafters. Also the prices of selling scrolls are crazy due to all the work it takes to make the required Greater Scribing Scrolls, Lucinda touches and everything else needed to scribe them. The only useful scrolls that are sold are the raise dead and that is because they are not found in drops or temples.

The highest-need potion recipes, those being the cure/heal potions, were significantly reduced last spring.  It sounds though like the temple stores are undercutting crafters, which is not ultimately a good thing.  Perhaps it is worthwhile to revisit the distribution of heal potions from vendors.

[SteveMaurer]

Although I generally think fighters are tougher than their players think, I also don't think crafting tweaks should be entirely dismissed for this reason: no party should be essentially dependent on having one specific class.

In other words, while mixed class parties will always be naturally stronger, it should not be impossible to form an effective party without a mage in the mix, just as it isn't impossible to form an effective party made solely of casters.   Right now though, at the higher levels, you really can't fight without magic - because the world's difficulty is tuned to expect it.

However, I would also not solve this by making everything you can craft easily purchasable at local stores - which would ruin crafting.  Rather I would solve it by extending the durations of items made by crafting.

If my warrior, in lieu of knowing how to cast a Bull's Strength spell, goes to Dregar to pick 8 cranberries, returns to Wayfare to pick hawthorne flower, goes off to the desert to get fire agate, then comes back to juice, powder stone, and finally brew, a Bull's Strength potion - that potion had better last more than the absolute minimum time.  In fact, it should remain in effect for 24 hours, so as to guarantee that the effect lasts until he rests.

Same thing for Alchemist's Fire he might want to apply to his weapon.   Right now it runs for about 3 rounds.   Which is absurd.

And the vast majority of scrolls are absolutely worthless to all but wizards, because their "casting level" is always set to the absolute minimum level you need to cast the spell.

Increasing the effective level for items to be reasonable would not ruin play balance at all - fighters would still prefer magicians to buff them, because of the ease.  But it would allow fighters who really wanted to, to an alternative mechanism to "casting", and make parties of non-casters at least somewhat effective.

[Dorganath]

Yeah, that would probably work, but it's a heck of a task, with its own series of pitfalls.  

The potions and scrolls, most of which are stock Bioware items, all have semi-hard-coded casting levels attached to them, configured in the item property 2da files. It would be nice if it was just a simple matter of saying "Oh, I'd like this potion to cast at 9th level rather than 5th," but that's not the way Bioware has done things, sadly.  In theory, we could edit the 2da files and just bump up the caster level in all those spell item properties, and it would automatically upgrade all our potions, scrolls and wands, but then the other side of that is that it also upgrades all other items that use those item properties including creature weapons/skins/abilities.  So in boosting that, we'd not really help things at all because many of the monsters would get tougher as a result.

The other possibility would be to add new caster level options to the 2da files and remake all these scrolls, potions and wands (again, most of which are stock Bioware), but the problem there, besides workload, is a bloated palette...which we may just burst by attempting something like this.

And yeah, Alchemist's fire is a pretty short duration. It's generally considered a stepping stone in the crafting process and a spell component more than a viable weapon enhancement.

Oh and...Cranberries can be found on West.

[jrizz]

I was not aware that any potions besides healing, speed, and Invisibility could be made (I think this is due to no one making anything but them since all others are pretty much useless) As for scrolls the min level thing is the key to why they are not so useful. And I dont know what wands can be made. But here is a list of buff spells and the casting level that would make them useful to melee types:

Having these available by potion, scroll, or wand would be great

Affordable and not over the top hard to craft:

All ability stats cast at 15th level
Mage armor cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 15th level
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4)
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4)
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 15th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 15th level
True seeing cast at 15th level
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4)

except for the ones listed at 20th level I think bioware has these levels available.

[SteveMaurer]

In theory, we could edit the 2da files and just bump up the caster level in all those spell item properties, and it would automatically upgrade all our potions, scrolls and wands, but then the other side of that is that it also upgrades all other items that use those item properties including creature weapons/skins/abilities.  So in boosting that, we'd not really help things at all because many of the monsters would get tougher as a result.

Thank you for your very lucid explanation for what is going on.  I still think about half of the items could be edited with no danger though.   The Bull's Strength spell effect, for example, only adds to duration when you increase the level, not any increase in strength.   So I really don't see how you could possibly get in trouble with that, since skin-effect items seem to be set to Always On anyway.

In fact, I'd be more than happy to make a cross list of safely editable spell effects if you're seriously considering this (i.e. effects that don't scale except for increasing durations).   An hour or two in the bit editor and you're done.

The other possibility would be to add new caster level options to the 2da files and remake all these scrolls, potions and wands (again, most of which are stock Bioware), but the problem there, besides workload, is a bloated palette...which we may just burst by attempting something like this.

Because most spell effects are already safe, you might not have make many additions at all.   And I would suggest you not, unless you see strong reason.   Balance changes are best done slowly in one direction, because no player ever whines on the second go-round that you made something even easier (as they will when you overcompensated the first time and have to nerf it back a bit).

Oh and...Cranberries can be found on West.

Yes, but not near a portal.  And strangely, not in swamps.    

(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)

[Dorganath]

Because most spell effects are already safe, you might not have make many additions at all.   And I would suggest you not, unless you see strong reason.   Balance changes are best done slowly in one direction, because no player ever whines on the second go-round that you made something even easier (as they will when you overcompensated the first time and have to nerf it back a bit).

Heh...no, I really don't want, nor was I suggesting I do so, as I see fairly strong reasons not to go this particular route.  It was stated for illustration of the possibilities and pitfalls, in case anyone else came up with the same idea.

[lonnarin]

Droppable or Craftable items that gave intermediate to *significant* boosts towards Use Magic Device would be useful towards making noncaster classes magic capable via the use of scrolls and other class restricted items like books already in game.  Since the use magic device check is something rather outlandish (20+ base?), it dictates you be a main-rank specialist in the skill over a long period of levels. Booster UMD holdables like CEP Wands, instruments and orbs, flaming skull lanterns, holy symbols and more would go a long way towards both magic item usage, and RP prop awesomeness.  A rogue or fighter who put their blade up mid combat and whipped out a Willow Ufgood wand with +14 UMD bodus and started reading off magic spells would be awesome.  And since UMD is the kind of skill that you can't use untrained, everybody who benefitted from such an item would have to at least crossclass a few levels in order to cast a scroll.  As it is now, I think a 20th lvl fighter who crosstrained UMD every single level can only max the skill ranks at around 12ish, so an epic fighter taking a skill all his life still looks at a magic missile scroll and blows his nose into it rather than use it.

I would also like to see such items used to empower the mages in game.  A mage who pulls out a flaming skull lantern could get Spell focuses to Evocation and Necromancy, and maybe cast a few vampiric spells once/day.  Holy Toranite symbols which bestow extra turning feat and cast charges of sunlight and sunbeam for vampire turning.    An Aeridenite Staff which heals a few times/day like a healer's hug, and granted empowered healing feat, useful for both clerics and bards.  Bring back the mages' and druids' staff, not just fashionable, but functional.  Mist rainmaker staves that improve evocation focus and cast lightning spells. (Pallenia and Grovel would love this)  Voraxian Blood Frenzy Axes with strength charges.  Wee Berylite gem hammers that cast invisibility of a decent duration at least 1x/day and have persistant bonus to search. (Gemseeker!)

As for the Holy symbols, I believe we already have gfx for a Toranite Ankh, A Corathite Monkey-Skull on a stick, A very sweet looking Lightning Bolt of Lucinda, and a cross, which doesn't really fit the Lore, but sure is Christmassy.  That Burning Skull Lantern is just asking to be made into some necromancer's toy, and the more mage staff variants, the better.

Toys, Toys, Toys!  *shakes the items under his Christmas Tree*

[Dorganath]

And moving this to a more suitable forum.

[Masterjack]

Do not underestimate the oil of sharpness. It is the hardest potion to craft in alchemy and lasts for a few battles. It comes in handy by increasing the crit threat range of your weapon.

All it needs is an ingot of addy some mahogany dust and a bottle of pear juice. Rather easy for epic and pre epic characters to get.

[jrizz]

Heh...no, I really don't want, nor was I suggesting I do so, as I see fairly strong reasons not to go this particular route.  It was stated for illustration of the possibilities and pitfalls, in case anyone else came up with the same idea.

For transparency can you explain the fairly strong reason you see not to try this out?

It is not over powering and more then enough caster buffs were left off my list to make having a caster in the group much better. Also casters buffs will be stronger and last longer (not to mention empower and extend).

[Dorganath]

For transparency can you explain the fairly strong reason you see not to try this out?

It is not over powering and more then enough caster buffs were left off my list to make having a caster in the group much better. Also casters buffs will be stronger and last longer (not to mention empower and extend).

Oh you misunderstand.

I was not objecting to the idea in general but to that specific method of duplicating and remaking scrolls and potions to give them higher usefulness across the board. *points up a few posts*

I'm not commenting on the viability or balance issues for now, only injecting some technical perspective for furthering the discussion.

[Hellblazer]

As for one who used to be in the top Infusing department. Not all wand can be used by every one. Infact, unless you have umd, most wands are not usable by fighters.

This may have been stated, but I just skimmed into the thread

(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)

Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.

[SteveMaurer]

Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest (cranberries) for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.

A few small plants can be grown that way, but for the bushes to grow big, you need water.  Lots of water - for their weight to be supported.

From google, here are Images of cranberry harvests

[Lord Dark]

As for one who used to be in the top Infusing department. Not all wand can be used by every one. Infact, unless you have umd, most wands are not usable by fighters.

This may have been stated, but I just skimmed into the thread

(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)

Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.

Yeah, duh. You haven't seen the commercials? There's one where he karate kicks that makes me chuckle, but sadly, YouTube only has three or four of them.

[Chazzler]

Just for the player-base's info, a wizard of high enough levels who scribes a scroll of Greater Magic Weapon produces a caster level 15 GMW scroll

[jrizz]

Just for the player-base's info, a wizard of high enough levels who scribes a scroll of Greater Magic Weapon produces a caster level 15 GMW scroll

Two issue with that:

1. 15th level is only +3
2. The current in game cost of such a scroll is ludicrous.

So this in no way helps with the original request. As a matter of fact it is a symptom of the issue.