Give us useful and affordable buffing potions, scrolls, and wands :)

[Xiaobeibi]

@cb you are dead wrong about my intentions. What I really want is more balance but I am trying to find ways to get that without having to have more classes "nerfed" or "buffed". The nerfing and buffing of classes take a lot of time and more often then not fails to hit it intended mark. Furthermore when was the last time I asked for non casters to have caster abilities? Maybe you are referring to the forgotten feat of Dev Crit that was nerfed oh so many years ago and never brought back even after many many spells got much more powerful. That is not a spell like ability but the very wise makers of NWN did put it in as an equalizer to deal with the caster/non-caster power balance issues. Diving in deeper to my rant this would not be an issue if we had a much larger community logged in but for the most part we have less then 20 folks on both server most of the time. So getting a party together that fits your level is not as easy as you make it sound. And you were not being blunt you were just being dead wrong and trying to misdirect this thread for some reason.

Alas I am not wrong about this and I strongly dislike the implication of "trying to misdirect this thread for some reason".

As it is, I have a great deal of sympathy for your apparent cause here. The comment about "not meeting many glass cannons" ought to have made this abundantly clear. But the list of spells presented and their caster levels duplicate core abilities of the cleric (and druid). And before this descent into semantics: for any caster class, the spells, that set this class aside from other casters and non-casters, are in my opinion core abilities. So I don't mind warriors getting Dev Crit, I think it would be quite nice, but this is a different way and I feel the wrong way.  And pray do tell me, if you want Dev Crit back in its pure and wise form why do you ask for negative energy protection?

And no indeed you do not ask for non-casters to have caster abilities, you just ask for them in an "useful and affordable potion".  If you play a class that offers as much benefit to whole party as to themselves (bards, clerics) then part of the joy of playing those is seeing the difference you make.  If you hand this out in a useful, affordable and long lasting form (potion, scroll etc) then the only difference you make is the coin in the party's pockets.

I appreciate and I sympathise with your frustration, but regardless of how or why the result is the same. If you make core class abilities easily available to all other classes you devaluate the class. AND then you take away some of the joy of playing said class.

Now armour with benefits for warriors and drawbacks for casters are something else.  Swords that make you immune to knockdown... well perhaps they ought to make you dumber?  A few new feats wouldn't be bad either -- Dragon Age has a number of warrior abilities that could be translated into feats. All of these things are fine by me; just don't make classes redundant by copying out their core abilities...

XB
P.S. Ben: if it was up to me Layo experienced a world wide pixiecide...

[jrizz]

So since you say you are not trying to derail the thread then we agree that this thread is NOT about casters and we can stop talking about them and go back to dealing with getting buffs to melees and how it can work for crafters. Thank you for dropping the "this is not good for my caster" theme and getting back on track.

If you really look at the list of buffs you will see that a good number of the best buffs are left off, like spell resistance. Furthermore they are way less powered then the ones that come from PCs. All this does is give a melee group or PC a BIT more range in where they can go. Heck this would not be an issue if we all NEEDED each other to go places. But there is no way to enforce that and with our limited community it would reduce usage down to very very little.

Have some compassion for the players that are stuck due to these issues.

[Xiaobeibi]

So since you say you are not trying to derail the thread then we agree that this thread is NOT about casters and we can stop talking about them and go back to dealing with getting buffs to melees and how it can work for crafters. Thank you for dropping the "this is not good for my caster" theme and getting back on track.

I am at a loss for words: how can pointing out that your suggestion will have a negative impact on other classes be derailing? And if this thread is not about casters what is it about? Warriors or barbarians who want to cast spells?

If you really look at the list of buffs you will see that a good number of the best buffs are left off, like spell resistance. Furthermore they are way less powered then the ones that come from PCs. All this does is give a melee group or PC a BIT more range in where they can go. Heck this would not be an issue if we all NEEDED each other to go places. But there is no way to enforce that and with our limited community it would reduce usage down to very very little.

To improve upon a level 20 stoneskin, level 20 vestment etc you need a level 25 cleric/mage. Lets repeat that, level 25. So a buff that can only be improved by a level 25 mage/cleric is "way less powered..."? The level 15 spells only offer increased duration with caster level, the difference here between 15 and 20 isnt that great.

And what do you need spell resistance for? If you have neg. energy protection, true sight, mindblank, deatward and resist elements what spell short of a hellball or three will make any impression upon 400 hp plus barbarian or warrior?

Have some compassion for the players that are stuck due to these issues

It should be clear I do indeed have compassion for "non-casters" so please do have the consideration to consider the impact of your suggestions on other classes.

Thank you for not accusing others of "derailing" and "trying to misdirect" when they offer a different opinion from your own.

[jrizz]

You did not read all the posts did you? If you go back through you will see that I asked for NWN palette items to be added and Darkstorme was nice enough to go and make a list of the levels available in the NWN palette. Now those are the ones I am asking for.

As for negatively affecting other classes, that is exactly what I am try to avoid. Due to the gap issue some areas have already been changed and lone casters can no longer go in them and win the day. So that solution has (in a small way) reduced the size of the world for some PCs

So how about instead of shooting down suggestions and giving all the reason why it is no good you put on your positive cap and come up with solutions/suggestions to the gap issue. Besides the suggestion that you should always have to have a caster with you. My counter to that is casters should then never go anywhere without melees.

Oh and when was the last time you checked the average level of the server? You may be surprised to find that often it is over 25 (as I write this the avg level on cent is 26!). Maybe your suggestion is that for the higher duration buffs it should take higher levels to use them?

[Dorganath]

Please keep the discussion civil.  

I'm one more snarky post away from locking the thread.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but let's keep the discussion to the merits or pitfalls of the idea, not one's opinion on the arguments, observations, motivations or experiences of anyone else in the discussion.

[jrizz]

Getting back to the idea at hand:

Thanks DS for checking the toolset:

The revised requested list of buffs to be craftable at these levels and for the crafting of said items not to take too many items to make so that they can be more available as wands, potions, and scrolls. The shops can sell the lesser versions which I believe they already do for most of them.

All ability stats cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 17th level
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 10th level
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 10th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 7th level
True seeing cast at 9th level

These are all available in the toolset but I have no idea of how difficult it would be to add them in the crafting stream.

[Hellblazer]

While I agree with both your points jrizz and xiao, I think that we should concentrate on what would be the best of the two. Using bottled spells might not be the best. Instead, using weapon that gives temporary bonuses, that are less stronger than the spells of level 20+ caster, might be the way to go.

Temporary in the form of limited uses per rest, like the helmet of armor 2. And those new items should be restricted to a few classes that are non caster classes. Of course, nothing we could do about the umd or multiclassing. But then again, when have we ever been able to do something about it.

[jrizz]

Doing it with potions, scrolls, and wands would get the economy going again for crafters of those things. Scribes have really very little market right now.
 
 So what say you? Any chance we can get these added?

[darkstorme]

All ability stats cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 17th level
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 10th level
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 10th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 7th level
True seeing cast at 9th level

Of this list, items are currently in game that provide Death Ward, True Seeing, Haste and an enchantment far better than Resist Elements.  Flame Weapon at 17th level is only marginally better than a fourth-circle fire enchantment - and with a far shorter duration.  Greater Magic Weapon cast at tenth level is equivalent to an adamantium/mahogany weapon, which are hardly difficult to come across.  All in all, I don't really see anything in this list which would justify the amount of work required to add them into the game and rebalance the palette.

Moreover, I'm inclined to agree with the opinion that dragging some of the most integral spells of other classes into the "anyone can use them" realm is unfair to those classes and unbalancing in general.

That being said...

I would support increasing the yield of existing alchemical concoctions.  As it stands, crafted potions are as expensive as they are because it takes a great deal of time and effort, and some hard-to-find ingredients, to make even a few potions.  If the return per recipe were, for example, three potions on a success, rather than a single potion (with the whole batch being spoiled on a failure, of course), this could reasonably bring the existing, balanced potions to a wider audience.

But for the reasoning above, both in terms of balance and effort for limited return, I don't particularly support any of the spells Jrizz suggests.

[jrizz]

what item provides haste better then level 10? and what item provides TS better then level 9? and do they provide these more then once per day? I mean if you are talking about the flag of might for haste well that is usable for one fight and then once an hour. But all of this is just talk, since no other fighter class players has spoke up then I am guessing that it is not wanted. So unless some folks speak up I will start a new thread discussing Dev Crit the only fighter feat that brings a melee up to par with the destructive power of a caster.

[darkstorme]

I didn't say "better than" for any of the spells, save for Resist Elements (since the item I'm thinking of provides Energy Buffer).  I'm saying that there are items in place that provide the effects.  (And by definition, any item that provides True Sight provides it at level nine; that's the only level at which it's available as an item property.)

All the items to which I am referring are either "charged" items or single-use items; in either case, they can provide as many uses per day as you're willing to expend.

Regardless, as I said - making potions more available, I'm all for.  Creating new items to replace primary casters - not so much.

[Hellblazer]

Doing it with potions, scrolls, and wands would get the economy going again for crafters of those things. Scribes have really very little market right now.
 
 So what say you? Any chance we can get these added?

The reason there is little market is as is.. well look at the player base. Most of the mages are already in the high mid -ends (level 17 and up).. so they don't need to buy anything. And unless you have UMD scrolls are not usable by most classes. Potions.. they require a lot of different component to make it worth it, and in reality due to that, it jacks the price up just because of the amount of work it is needed. Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.

In fact the only way to get a market rolling, would actually be have spell book be breakable after time. Armor, shield, sword lose the edge.. even break off if absolutely not taken care of. Then you would have a rolling economy. But as long as the gear stays in perfect condition for ever after, as if you just bought it. You will get an economy that is not working. Heck I remember when I was making infusing for the angels. Beside a few people in the guild, no one would actually by the wands, even if the price was a clear mark down from raven co for good reasons. Wands of fire brand, stone skin ect would have been great addition to what you are asking, and they are already available, but no one makes them a sales, because it never sold in the past.

Again, if there is no ware and tare, there is no need for a character to get new equipment, there for there is no sales being made, but to the very few alt chars that are being made, and that in essence doesn't really run an economy.

Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.

Having items that can be crafted, with a limited duration and usage per day, would surely alleviated the hundreds of potions. Like exceptional ability rings.. and new kind of weapon armors that could give some spell like effect for a limited time and very much so under power vs a caster so not to make their need disappear. Plus I bet it would require less space on the palette, compared to adding new potions that are not already craft able. Maybe wands should be made so they can be used by every one?

But all of this is just talk, since no other fighter class players has spoke up then I am guessing that it is not wanted.

And well, Feh is kinda a fighter class.. Ranger/rogue/Weapon master, no UMD. And no where high enough as a ranger to have lasting spells and powerful ones. So I am speaking out!


//edit

makes me remember a show I saw on monster machine. There were talking of tree lugger truck. One of the best out there, had made (note the past tense) a truck so durable, so well build, that never broke down, that the company after selling a few thousands, went bankrupt. Because since their truck were so well made, there was no need for the companies to buy others as they were simply not breaking. So no new orders were being put out. This is actually what the layo crafting of jewelry, armor crating, tailoring, bows, weapons, shield etc.. is suffering.

// redit:

But to make sure what I'm suggesting is not in fact derailing the thread.

Having items that can be crafted, with a limited duration and usage per day, would surely alleviated the hundreds of potions. Like exceptional ability rings.. and new kind of weapon armors that could give some spell like effect for a limited time and very much so under power vs a caster so not to make their need disappear. Plus I bet it would require less space on the palette, compared to adding new potions that are not already craft able. Maybe wands should be made so they can be used by every one?

[Nehetsrev]

Not meant to upset anyone, but my personal opinion here would be:
 
 Forget about adding better versions of scrolls. The reason being because scrolls can be used to fill a wizard's spell-book and once known can be re-cast any time as long as the wizard has the spell memorized and the spell component (if required) at hand. As I see it, part of the fun of playing a wizard should be in findng hard to acquire, rare spells and sharing them only with those wizards who have earned implicit trust.
 
 Potions that could help non-casters do a bit more in times when casters aren't available would be nice. They're generally 1-time-use items, and should have a cost that reflects how difficult they are to make, and how useful they are. As much as it might seem great to supply one's self with enough various potions to be able to solo once in a while, they shouldn't be so affordable or easy to acquire that such activities are sustainable on an every-day basis.
 
 Wands and Staves could be given a bit more power/usefulness. Should they be useable by non-casters without UMD? I don't think so, in my own opinion. Perhaps they could be re-made to use more or less charges based on the strength (casting-level) of the spell as they're used. What I mean is, give the user the option to use their wand of fireballs to cast 2 really nasty fireballs at a effective caster level of 20 for the cost of 25 charges each, or 5 fireballs at effective caster level 10 for 10 charges each, or 25 fireballs at the lowest possible effective caster level at the cost of 2 charges each.
 
 Now, as to crafting skills...
 Firstly I've often thought to myself, like several others here have already posted, that many of the achemy items are rather useless for what you get versus time & material costs to make them. If there could be a way to scale the effectiveness of some alchemical products based on the crafter's skill in alchemy, it'd make gaining higher levels in the craft more worthwhile. For a time I played a character who used many alchemical thrown concoctions such as the alchemist's fire, choking powder, etc... but those types of items cease to be useful in later levels versus many of the things we have to fight. Heck, as a thrown weapon, alchemist's fire is nearly useless versus level 1 spawns and packs about as much oomf as a tiny firecracker when it should be more akin to a grenade. It's one reason why almost no one uses those types of items past level 7 or 8 or so. So why even have them, right?
 
 I've tried Infusing as a craft too, and was pretty disappointed. It took me litterally months of active play-time to build up my infusing skill to the point where I could make my first wand of electric jolt (a level 0 cantrip!), and I don't even want to talk about the costs involved from the material standpoint. Granted, I didn't have the support of other players in gathering all my resources like those in guilds or regular partying-groups might have, and neither did I acquire my resources via trades (can you imagine Emwonk posting an add in the trade and Market Halls forums, and anyone actually understanding it?). To make progress I had to mine all my own gems, learn a bit of gem-crafting to make them useful for infusing. To do that, I also had to learn a bit of alchemy so I could make my own polishing oils and enchanting oils. I just couldn't afford to buy any of the materials, and was lucky most days to be able to affford replacing my tools if they broke. I even had to learn a bit of woodworking for making the shafts for the wands, eventually. Infusing, for me, boiled down to being something to do to pass the time when there wasn't anyone else on to role-play with. So yeah, I agree with the sentiment that it'd be nice to get a little more oomf for our efforts in some of the crafts, especially those that make limitted-use items. Tailoring, tinkering, enchanting, weapon-crafting, armor-crafting, woodworking and gem-crafting are pretty much fine the way they are, because many of the items once made give a permanent bonus, or long-time useability... but limitted-use or one-time-use items usually aren't worth the investment of time and resources. Not when many of those same items can be found fairly regularly as drops or bought in shops, anyway.
 
 Ugh... I've started rambling a bit here, so I'll stop now. But these have been some of my own personal thoughts.

[Ravemore]

Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.

Since potions stack, I don't think this would be an issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the lag caused by a stack of 10 was approximately the same as a single item...so if a fighter had 10 full stacks of Bulls Strength Potions he would have 100 potions with very little lag potential?

I think the earlier idea mentioning increased production of potions on success would be wonderful. I know my character would do a lot more potion making if that were the case, and it definitely would make it profitable for me from a time and resource expense point of view...

[Hellblazer]

 
 I've tried Infusing as a craft too, and was pretty disappointed. It took me litterally months of active play-time to build up my infusing skill to the point where I could make my first wand of electric jolt (a level 0 cantrip!), and I don't even want to talk about the costs involved from the material standpoint. Granted, I didn't have the support of other players in gathering all my resources like those in guilds or regular partying-groups might have, and neither did I acquire my resources via trades (can you imagine Emwonk posting an add in the trade and Market Halls forums, and anyone actually understanding it?). To make progress I had to mine all my own gems, learn a bit of gem-crafting to make them useful for infusing. To do that, I also had to learn a bit of alchemy so I could make my own polishing oils and enchanting oils. I just couldn't afford to buy any of the materials, and was lucky most days to be able to affford replacing my tools if they broke. I even had to learn a bit of woodworking for making the shafts for the wands, eventually. Infusing, for me, boiled down to being something to do to pass the time when there wasn't anyone else on to role-play with. So yeah, I agree with the sentiment that it'd be nice to get a little more oomf for our efforts in some of the crafts, especially those that make limitted-use items. Tailoring, tinkering, enchanting, weapon-crafting, armor-crafting, woodworking and gem-crafting are pretty much fine the way they are, because many of the items once made give a permanent bonus, or long-time useability... but limitted-use or one-time-use items usually aren't worth the investment of time and resources. Not when many of those same items can be found fairly regularly as drops or bought in shops, anyway.
 
 Ugh... I've started rambling a bit here, so I'll stop now. But these have been some of my own personal thoughts.

I fully understand you there, it took me months to get Rain where he was, and that is with the angels help for acquiring things. That point wouldn't change though. The non caster still would not be able to make them. What would make it more worth while for you though and any other person working the infusing, is if there was an actual market for them. But that wont happen as long as they will be closed up to umd users or casters. IF there is a broader availability then there is a better chance for them to be used. Give it more charges per uses, that is good, as long as it's not unlimited, else you do to infusing exactly what is killing the other parts of the crafting system.