Throwing Axes

[Obsydian]

I understand that in a fairly recent update, crafted arrows were increased from stacks of 20 to stacks of 99.

As throwing axe affectionados are already at a disadvantage, as our chosen ranged weapon requires a pound of carrying capacity per throw, it would be nice to see something similar for our projectiles.  Rather than increasing the stack size, however, perhaps reducing the recipe from

• Nine ingots of copper
• Two hickory staves
• Two small molds

to

• Four ingots of copper
• One hickory stave
• One small mold

... for a stack of twenty-five axes? (And similar reductions for more powerful axes, naturally.)

I mean, the alternative is for axe-throwing types to carry around darts, or a sling, or a bow... and really, carrying a bow is for sissy elves.  Dwarves throw axes!

(Also, it would be nice if the price for copper throwing axes at the merchants was cut by three-quarters or so.  As it stands, they average about four True per axe, while the bow-wielding types can have three hundred and ninety-six shots for every one of ours.)

I beseech the powers that be, in the name of dwarves everywhere - don't make us pick up a bow.  Let us stay true to our Voraxian heritage, and hit people with a full pound of metal at sixty yards!

[Script Wrecked]

Given that a throwing axe is likely to be much more durable than an arrow, and much more findable than a sling bullet, how about reducing the weight of throwing axes to signify their recovery and reuse.

Howabout a quarter of the weight, signifying an average of four throws before being lost or damaged?

As it is, their weight make them almost unplayable (almost *points up* :p).

[Masterjack]

Given that a throwing axe is likely to be much more durable than an arrow, and much more findable than a sling bullet, how about reducing the weight of throwing axes to signify their recovery and reuse.

Howabout a quarter of the weight, signifying an average of four throws before being lost or damaged?

As it is, their weight make them almost unplayable (almost *points up* :p).

Or even better have magical ones that return upon use.

[Obsydian]

Or even better have magical ones that return upon use.

I don't know that I'd agree with this one, for two reasons.  First, Layonara (according to the handbook, anyway) is supposed to be a low-magic world, and magic axes that keep coming back aren't really in keeping with that.

Second, it'd mean there wouldn't really be any point in making or selling throwing axes, since you'd only ever need one.  I like ScriptWrecked's suggestion of making them lighter, though, to reflect one's ability to recover them, and therefore stretch a certain weight of axes further.

[Masterjack]

I don't know that I'd agree with this one, for two reasons.  First, Layonara (according to the handbook, anyway) is supposed to be a low-magic world, and magic axes that keep coming back aren't really in keeping with that.

Second, it'd mean there wouldn't really be any point in making or selling throwing axes, since you'd only ever need one.  I like ScriptWrecked's suggestion of making them lighter, though, to reflect one's ability to recover them, and therefore stretch a certain weight of axes further.

Well you did compare axes to arrows. I do believe they have bows and crossbows with unlimited ammunition. So to keep with your line of thought having axes return upon throwing is not much of a stretch.

I'm not going to touch Layo being a low magic world. That is a whole different topic that has been discussed at length in previous threads.

[Obsydian]

Trying to be more active again - any thoughts on this?  Halrath is still paying for the throwing axes, but the thought that elves, in any way, have it better than he does hurts his dwarven soul!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Better? Paying less for a lesser product? Har!

However, despite the fact that the vastly superior dwarf of course has a much MUCH higher carrying capacity, 25 throwing axes weigh more than two nuggets of ore. That's just criminal! Carrying around enough to last more than five combat rounds - which is how long it'll take for any of those sissy monsters to get up the gumption to charge a fully armed and armored dwarf - takes even more!

A charged item that generated throwing axes on non-combat use, that destroyed any currently in your inventory, but produced, say, 25-50... Man, that'd be cool for arrows, too. A quiver item, that had a "recollect arrows" option...

I know that NWN isn't really the priority right now, and this idea would necessitate pretty sweeping changes... But it's cool, right? I can be cool, too, now?

[jrizz]

Going along the lines of the trained bows that once done have endless ammo. There could be a throwing axe that never runs out (bounces back). And you have go through the same level of difficultly to make/train one. Wren would give up his bow for that!

[davidhoff]

*Griff listens eagerly to the discussion*

So far I think the best suggestion is the trained throwing axe with unlimited ammo.  If their can be trainable bows I don't see why not trainable axes.  Maybe the end product would be a stack of 25 weighing 25lbs.  The theory being that after the battle, the axes could be retrieved and reused (as has been previously suggested *grins to Argali*).

[Masterjack]

*Griff listens eagerly to the discussion*

So far I think the best suggestion is the trained throwing axe with unlimited ammo.  If their can be trainable bows I don't see why not trainable axes.  Maybe the end product would be a stack of 25 weighing 25lbs.  The theory being that after the battle, the axes could be retrieved and reused (as has been previously suggested *grins to Argali*).

Yes but with the a bow and arrow you always have the bow with the arrows getting used up. That makes it so the bow improves with each oil enchanted arrow fired.

With the axe it is just the axe and nothing else, it does not make sense that you could train them up. You would be oil enchanting a bunch of individual axes that you keep throwing away.

The idea is great but it does not make sense on how they become they way they do. Maybe you should have to wear a special pair of gloves for it to work and the gloves make them appear or come back.

[davidhoff]

Well the theory is that these are your "pet" axes and you go and pick your babies up after each battle.  You clean them up, hone them a bit, and over time you become more and more familiar with them.  In contrast, the bow is shooting newly made arrows each time, and those arrows are newly created and untested, so in a way the axes seem to be more of a constant.

You'd probably have to replace a few of your babies (axes) overtime as some get lost or damaged or some are carried away lodged in a Screecher's skull.  But, by in large, the bulk of your stock would remain the same and the new axes made could be modeled after the field tested ones.

Or, as an alternative, the trained axe could be thought of as a magical axe.  Once you go through the process of training the axe, the end product is one single throwing axe that creates "magical" replicas of itself as you throw it.  The one single trained axe never leaves your hand; only the magical replicas fly in the air at their target.  HAR!

[darkstorme]

*Griff listens eagerly to the discussion*

So far I think the best suggestion is the trained throwing axe with unlimited ammo.  If their can be trainable bows I don't see why not trainable axes.  Maybe the end product would be a stack of 25 weighing 25lbs.  The theory being that after the battle, the axes could be retrieved and reused (as has been previously suggested *grins to Argali*).

There are (at least) two problems with trainable axes, unfortunately.

First (and more easily solved) is the issue of what you're training when you're training axes.  With a bow, you're training the bow - the arrows are just ammunition.  When you throw a throwing axe, the item is gone.  This could be solved by saving values to the PC themselves (or the Memory Gem, or something similar), but would be a bit more awkward in terms of implementation.

Second (and much more awkward) is the issue of "unlimited ammo" for axes.  The function that creates the ItemProperty UnlimitedAmmo only applies to Ranged weapons, while throwing axes are Throwing weapons (as are darts and shuriken).  So that property cannot be readily applied.  A possible solution would be be, as Stephen suggested, creating an item which could be used to spawn throwing axes, but this would be prone to abuse.  Other solutions might include using "OnUnequip" (hard to tell if that would actually work without testing), but any solution would be kludgey and likely prone to causing lag, sadly.

[lonnarin]

 A possible solution would be be, as Stephen suggested, creating an item which could be used to spawn throwing axes, but this would be prone to abuse.

I think the unlimited ammo bows address the risk of abuse nicely.  They have crystal clear warnings in their description not to sell or trade the arrows, and the arrows themselves have a pawnable value of zero are marked stolen and cannot be pawned. (at least I think)

Weight reduction could be added to the base recipes, but then we run into problems with their value rising to unbalanced levels as well as their equippable level.  This leads to broke pawnshops and wimpy weapons to use per character level.

I like Stephen's idea as well, an item that were to spawn a limited amount of ammo/day would make a nice compromise.  I would suggest a craftable belt or pair of gloves that were first tailored and then infused or enchanted.  Or perhaps a lighter token variant "ammo pack" where one could purchase a 1-5lb token that when used would spawn a set number of throwing axes and was then consumed.  This token could be a "bag of axes" or a magical item like an axehead amulet or a statue of a dwarven warrior.  This would be the easiest method, I believe.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Or to go along the lines of the low-magic setting, it would be "Collect thrown axes." It would destroy the specific axes you already have in your inventory, then spawn another stack at a fixed size (25-50). And I STILL clamor for dropping the weight... Handaxes, like daggers, were awesome BECAUSE you could throw them effectively, then go back and get them.

I've always loved throwing axes, but I've always hated the NWN item.

[gilshem ironstone]

You do not have to worry about being able to sell the spawned axes. I know the arrows produced by Ilsare's Fiery Eye have no gold value, unlike crafted arrows with enchantment rods applied to them. I suppose you could then supply the player base with axes, but I would not be too worried about that.

[davidhoff]

The weight is the main issue I agree.  Maybe it would be easier to make a weapon recipe of some sort; examples:  

Weapon crafting - "Feather Weight Throwing Axe" - Same recipie for throwing axes (ie, 10 ingot of ore and mold; guessing here), plus a special component (maybe an ingot of mithril; or an essense of some type from alchemy table; or a crystal rod).  If use Iron as base then 40% reduced weight, addy would be 80%, or something like that.

Tinkering - "Throwing Axe Special Parts I, II, and III" - Kind of like the Mighty parts you can apply to a bow, this would be something that you would apply to a stack of axes.  Not sure what the recipe would be, but maybe something similar to what is used for the mighty parts and tweaked a bit.

[Dorganath]

In truth the "easiest" solution is to look at the recipe and the weight issues.  Any system to make "unlimited" or replenishing throwing axes...or really any unlimited thrown weapon (darts, shuriken, etc.) will be mired in complexity, for the reasons darkstorme outlined.

In my personal opinion, having unlimited throwing weapons of any sort doesn't make any sense, and applying the unlimited ammo comparison with bows and crossbows doesn't fit....again for reasons given above, though not necessarily by darkstorme.

[jrizz]

The fact (I know it is bioware programming) that once thrown the axe just magically vanishes is what has always bothered me. If you have ever thrown axes knives or stars you know that you can always go and collect them. The unlimited ammo on bows makes less sense then collecting your axes after the battle. We have bows that create bunches of arrows x times a day, so an item that creates stacks of throwing axes should really not be all that much of an issue. How to obtain such an item is more of an issue. It could be a crafted item that takes 5000 axes to make or  it could be a drop item or set of items (copper, iron, addy, mithy).

[Dorganath]

Yeah well, welcome to NWN.  In PnP we would always retrieve any arrows we could, getting only a percentage back.  The same would go for other thrown and launched weapons, but NWN is inherently unfriendly to that sort of thing because it utterly destroys every missile weapon it supports.

The unlimited bows should really rather be thought of producing a single arrow on-demand, not producing a stack  as needed and as often as needed (Ilsare's Fiery Eye and Shadon's Trapping Bow as limited exceptions, in that they can produce a stack of special arrows once per RL hour, I believe...though they are not "unlimited ammunition" bows). Regardless, the real problem seems to be the cost to craft such disposable items and the weight of a stack of them. Creating a new item that creates a bunch of heavy items still has the problem of weight.  Making such an item craftable and needing 5000...(yes, I know you were partially kidding) or even 1000 still has the issue of weight and inventory space, not to mention the headache you'd give the server by putting 1000 of anything onto a crafting table. On the flip side, doing a "training" system like you have with bows doesn't make any sense either, because you're throwing away what you're trying to train.  Yes, yes, we could probably work something out, but again, you're adding complexity.

Don't get me wrong...I understand the desire to have what archers have, but I really can't "me too" every cool thing that one group gets that another doesn't. It's called a trade-off and things like that are all over the game world. I won't make a list. Everyone knows what I mean.

So again, the simplest solution and the one that addresses the key issues is to investigate the crafting and weight issues. I'm confident something can be done about the former, less so about the latter because of the way NWN calculates the weight of a stack.

[Eeroas]

I have seen nice script one of NWN server (I can't remember where) that had some percentage for of recovery for all ammunition. After killing enemy you could pick up some of your ammunition from enemy. All it also worked in the other way that when enemy shot you might get some ammunition in your inventory too.

One of the most fun moment I had there was once that I throw axe on the enemy that was standing over the river (it could not get on to me from there with its melee weapon) and it throw it right back at me!

Side effect where that when playing low strength char there was possibility to become encumbered by axes throw by enemies (or darts if you where near the limit of your carrying capacity). Well in reality this is possible as thrown weapons that hurt or not hurt you might still get tangled up your clothes, backpacks and such (I’m pretty sure the script activated only if you got hit).
I heard some PCs that had bow as they main weapon had really fun moments sometimes when they fought against other bow using enemies in that server. Shooting back enemies with their own arrows. And I guess that dwarven defenders that looked like hedgehog after getting ambushed by archers could earn some coins by selling all those arrows.

I have no idea how 'heavy" this scripting was so it might be cause lag or something. Still would it not be fun that there was some changes that you could recovers some of your arrows, bolts, bullets and all throwing weapons from dead enemies bodies?
 
Maybe some lighter scripting that only applies throwing weapons with high recovery changes?

 I’m not sure how that script worked so maybe 100% recovery you be nice if the weapons hits and if you miss the target (there is always change as you can roll 1) otherwise it’s always lost? Or maybe some other solution that makes script server friendly?
Just "throwing up" some ideas.