Oddity with arrows

[Hellblazer]

While making some bronze hick stirge, and some Raven. I compared the LR to some Silver Hick Falcons. The bronze arrow heads were level 11 while the silver arrows heads were level 9. Stronger arrow heads should mean higher level no?

[Dorganath]

Silver isn't necessarily "stronger" than bronze.  Actually, if you go by real material strength, then bronze wins over silver, I'm pretty sure.

Beyond that though, it all has to do with how Bioware "prices" the various properties that each material adds.  In this case, it apparently values extra damage vs. Animals (a very broad category) to be greater than the same versus undead and shapechangers (relatively narrow focus by comparison).

EDIT: It's also an apples/oranges comparison, as Falcon feathers give extra piercing damage where Raven give extra bludgeoning damage, which is (I believe) more useful overall (meaning fewer things are as resistant to that type of damage).

[Hellblazer]

So basically overall, raven feathers are better than falcons?

[Dorganath]

Depends on what you want!  

It seems different people prefer different things from their arrows than others.  I know some people who prefer Stirge feathers, while others prefer Owl.  It depends a lot in what one typically hunts with them, making the choice of materials rather important.  It's not uncommon for people to have different types of arrows for different situations.

[Hellblazer]

yeah but with the new bows  i wanted to train into a more specific ways. Thanks though.

[Dorganath]

Yeah, well again, it depends what you want out of the unlimited ammo.

[Hellblazer]

mostly, something that would be good on all, but not necessarily great on just one thing.

[darkstorme]

There's no one ammunition type that's good on all, Hellblazer.  That's why there are multiple ammunition types.  There are creatures with bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing resistance, and negative energy doesn't work well against undead.

[Hellblazer]

I kinda know that already mate. But thanks, really. But like Dorg stated, there are things that are less resistant in a broader sense to certain type of things. Like Raven feathers as he stated for one. So i will keep looking thanks.

By now I know that Mahogany doubles the damage a something can do, from a post milt made. And will work better on some of the higher Cr foe, while hickory would be useless. Raven is less protected against, apparently as Dorg said. So we have two components figured out. I just need to figure out which arrow head I will use. Thanks for the info Dorg.

I am a bit curious why Yew is not included in the trainable arrows, nor the elementals enchantments. As each wood is corresponding to a metal, the balance is there, and still the melee weapons can deal unlimited amount of elemental damage, as it doesn't fade off of their weapons.

I'm guessing that if someone could put an enchantment on a bow it self instead of the arrow, it would balance things out between bows and melee weapons. Preventing an other enchantment to be used on the bow, would put the same limitation as putting and enchantment on the melee weapon. using the same system you guys did for the unlimited ammo, could make that possible. Heck if its a problem with the engine, then using a rod on a bow/crossbow could give that bow/crossbow a feat for the type and strength of damage the rod equaled to. it's already being done for other type of feats (alertness comes to mind), and some classes already give feats that adds damage to the arrows. So I guess it could be done that way.

[Dorganath]

I am a bit curious why Yew is not included in the trainable arrows, nor the elementals enchantments. As each wood is corresponding to a metal, the balance is there, and still the melee weapons can deal unlimited amount of elemental damage, and metal bonuses, as it doesn't fade off of their weapons.

I'm guessing that if someone could put an enchantment on a bow it self instead, it would balance things out between bows and melee weapons. Preventing an other enchantment to be used on the bow it self, would put the same limitation as putting and enchantment on the melee weapon.

Because we wanted there to be a choice to be made between having the best possible bow and the best possible ammo that one has to keep making OR having a pretty good bow that never runs out.

Trust me when I say this was the subject of a lot of discussion on this point, especially on the topic of elemental damage. The trainable bow system is as it is because it was decided to be the best overall balance between intent and other existing systems, like those for the Arcane Archer PrC and even one ECDQ/WLDQ reward.

[Hellblazer]

Aye I understand, I'm just thinking that the other bow users that are not AA or have not had that ECDQ/WLDQ reward are a bit left out of the loop for those things. Not that I complain much, I do like the new training system, just expected a bit more out of it.

[Dorganath]

Yeah well the point was to not replace AA and ECDQ/WLDQ rewards and abilities with a single item that just takes 10,000 arrows and a bit of time.

It's not that everyone's being left out, but what makes those things special should remain so and not cheapened to just another item.

[Lynn1020]

I don't think we should complain to much. I'm sure there has been a lot of work that has went behind these changes.

It has really gave the archers a chance to get back in the "game". We could go back to the the choices we did have.  

Twenty five arrows to a crafted bundle. One enchantment rod to bundle of 99.  Bows without flame weapon and GMW.

[Hellblazer]

hehe like I said I'm not complaining to much the changes are great, just was hoping to see elemental added to the lot too

[miltonyorkcastle]

You can essentially get 5000 elementally enchanted arrows now from one enchanted rod, so yeah, elemental is "added to the lot." True archers probably shouldn't be using an unlimitted arrow bow for their best attack option. Because different arrows are good against different things, the best archers will have a wide variety of arrows on them at any given time. Need to fight fire elementals? here are my cold enchanted arrows. Need to fight constructs? here are my iron tipped stirge fleteched arrows. Need to fight undead? here are my silver-tipped raven fletched arrows. For true archers, the unlimited bow is more of a fall-back. The unlimited ammunition is better for folks that use a bow as a secondary attack or for a specific purpose (like an undead slaying bow).

[Hellblazer]

Which is exactly what is happening in my case . But still, easier to train different bows, than pay 25 k (4rth circle) a rod each 5000 arrows. If you get what I mean.

[darkstorme]

But still, easier to train different bows, than pay 25 k (4rth circle) a rod each 5000 arrows. If you get what I mean.

Which is, no doubt, part of the reason that elemental enchantments don't work with the bow training.

[Hellblazer]

Eh Melee types have it easy don't they seriously though, thanks for the work already done on the bows.

[Nehetsrev]

Eh Melee types have it easy don't they seriously though, thanks for the work already done on the bows.

If you consider being within bashing range of your foes where you can take serious damage yourself easy, then yes, I suppose melee fighters do have it easier than cowardly snipers who seek to stay out of harm's way.  Honestly, if ranged weapons ever became as powerful as melee weapons the game would be unforgiveably unbalanced, and no one would want to play a melee fighter because they'd always get killed before they could even close range to engage their foes.

[Hellblazer]

Ah but now you talk about the warrior being able to wield shield, and armors that gives them high ac, compared to the light armor or no armor at all depending on which type of char is there using a bow, that will make them pretty frail compared to the warrior. Of also the fact that soo many times the foes rushes through the front line to go at what is firing, even if the person is firing at what is being hit and not something else. SO basically you have tanker with unlimited elemental damage, vs limited in all ways for the archers, where the metals and wood are already balanced as each metal has a corresponding wood that equals the bonus. So again, yes I know the warrior gets their head bashed on.. really a wonder they don't all look like ali in his older years. But still, a balance usually mean that things are devy up equally between other things, which at the moment it is not divided up as such.

Also not forgetting that to actually get pass the Dr of a foe you need the higher bows, which is normal, but to actually do any kind of real damage with the bow, you need loads of higher ends (mahog and yew) arrows. It's good that you can train a bow now, that helps.

Being that I play a AA, I can tell you that they would not lose any uniqueness to it. Firstly the enchantment they get are not elemental based, so they would actually benefit from being able to put an elemental enchantment on their bow. Secondly their enchantment is not aleatory but a fixed set of additional damage that can go up to +15 on each hit which is considerably more than the 1d8 maximum the arrows would get, so again they have a better deal, not to mention my personal favorite, imbue arrow. ECDQ/WLDQ i can understand that.



Anywyas I didn't want to get into a debate of stats, but eh.

If ranged weapons ever became as powerful as melee weapons the game would be unforgiveably unbalanced, and no one would want to play a melee fighter because they'd always get killed before they could even close range to engage their foes.

that is what is call planning ahead and tactics, making it clear not to shot before the fighter are actually engaged. RP it out, you'll see it works.