A Discussion on leveling.

[Tanman]

Don't take this the wrong way some people play alot more than others but, from what I see, I see an increase in leveling speed, but maybe thats just me.
 
And the 4 million XP at 20th *sighs*.... So I have like 5 million XP now at level 19... add 4 million for the twenty hump, and that means there are people who have gotten over 9 million XP in like 6 months.

I don't think that it is just you because I have the same observations. I remember when I first joined the server that people would just roleplay, they might go to a place, say Lar, and were not so concerned with combatting creatures and collecting gold. People were interested in exploring perhaps a bit of crafting and finally what was most important in those days, was to create an interesting story. I remember meeting various people and striking a friendship between them. Hlint was always a fun place to be.

Therefore I personally think  it is what characters choose to do with their time. In the past in V2 and such the majority of people chose to focus on story as I have mentioned, nowadays people focus more on adventure and combatting creatures on what was East and now the new areas such Thunder Peaks that the team have put together.

Personally, I enjoy the story and character development. I would come into sit in Stormcrest, and now hopefully Thunder Crossroads, and hope  for people to find their way there to talk about things as we did in the past. Alas, that has not happened yet. I guess people are still adventuring. In the meantime, my characters continue to wait for when tales and legends would be spun and I can explore the new areas with this sense of vigor.

As for my character level progression, I have been on the server for 1 year and a bit now and my highest level character just hit level 14. I play him true to form and even though I have several other characters, I like his level of progression and I am not complaining. He has made a lot of friends and story development, and I think that far outweighs things such as XP/level. I felt this character really deserved his level.

[twidget658]

Personally, I think taking away Hlint as the starting point has left people feeling like they have no 'home' or a place to go to for RP. Port Hempstead and Fort Vehl just don't have the 'home town' feeling. Since the loss of a focal point, people just stay scattered. With the scatterness, a lot of the RP has shifted to RPing during battles and adventuring which has the affect of leveling characters. Hard to develope a character just from battle RP, in my opinion.

[Tanman]

I totally agree with that thought Twidget. I think you have nailed it on the head.

I would have thought that Stormcrest or Thunder Crossroads would have replaced the "Hlint" in Version 3 though. *shrugs* looks like I maybe wrong.
But your conjecture scatteredness of players activity is spot on imho.

[Chongo]

Thunder xroads seems to be working.  Most of the time there's at least 1 person there, and it seems to me that a good quarter of the time there's more then 5 there.  Today I saw a group of 13 there for over an hour, and that happens pretty often.

But yeah, big servers spread folks out.  Stormcrest doesn't really seem to work as intended since it's a few steps back on the avenue towards most adventures, at the brink of which you need to bottleneck adventurers in their travel routes.  I think the thunder xroads are working decently in that regard.  Hlint was good because of the multiple travel routes from it/ portals, and because it was grandfathered in and thus the precedent was set.

That last point made, it's largely the player's precedents in bringing people to a hub that will actually make it a hub over time.

[iceyfire]

Aye, its good to see so many responses, aye im not trying to dumb down the whole rp nature of the community, however i think its a combination of both combat adventure and rp that make this server great, and no im not thinking of drastic drops in experience needed not at all i was thinking more along the lines of 20% at the most if anything.
No if it was one of those servers where you picked a build, spent a week leveling and then ran around looking for things to do i would have left long ago... no i have had my one character to long for that hehe.

Aye you all make valid points and if the end is not really that close then cheers let us continue then , but you can agree with my point on people focusing more on one character if anything because of that lingering and the need to see what else is out their.

[Eight-Bit]

All I ask is that in the last week this version of Layonara exists, everyone be made level 40 and all the spawns need to be Dragons.

[AeonBlues]

I like the level system on Layo.  I played on a NWN2 server, and one of the  things that turned me off, was how easy it was to make levels.  I love the RP on layo.  Everywhere I go, there is good RP happening.  There have been several ocasions when I bailed from a party that was focused on grinding XP and not RPing.  That hasn't happened for a long time, and generally was because of one person not waiting for others.  

One of my characters could be considered a fast leveler.  If he was leveling any faster then he is, I would lose interest in him as a character.  Mind you, making levels is not my primary goal.  I like to hunt.  I made a character thats dogma and background are about hunting.  He comes from a tribe of hunter gatherers.  He hunts.  As a consequence, he makes levels.  So, as stated, I like things the way they are.

I currently have 3 characters, and I have no worries about when the server ends.  My enjoyment is not being gathered at some later point in time.  My enjoyment is now.  The fun I have playing my characters can never be taken away.  I have fun, and when layo NWN goes down, I can say, "Thanks, I had a lot of fun, and I am looking forward to the new thing."  

There is plenty for characters at any level to be involved with, both inside of quest events and out.  When there is not much for one to do, there is something going on for another.  There is always interesting dialog, character development, stories and lore being shared.  When people talk about how RP is suffering, it kind of frustrates me.  Like, where are you?  How can I play 3 different characters, and find good RP everywhere I go, and alls you see is people grinding XP?

AeonBlues

[twidget658]

One of my characters could be considered a fast leveler. If he was leveling any faster then he is, I would lose interest in him as a character. Mind you, making levels is not my primary goal. I like to hunt. I made a character thats dogma and background are about hunting. He comes from a tribe of hunter gatherers. He hunts. As a consequence, he makes levels.

 
 Nyeaena was approved on Feb 08, 2007 and is now level 22...*blinks, blinks*
 
 Hunting what?
 
 You can RP anything you want to justify your actions. But I do agree that if a players has a lot of time to play and all the player does is 'hunt', yeah the character is going to level fast. What ever is fun for the player, I guess is what it boils down to.
 
 To each his own.

[AeonBlues]

Nyeaena was approved on Feb 08, 2007 and is now level 22...*blinks, blinks*
 
 Hunting what?
 
 You can RP anything you want to justify your actions. But I do agree that if a players has a lot of time to play and all the player does is 'hunt', yeah the character is going to level fast. What ever is fun for the player, I guess is what it boils down to.
 
 To each his own.

I think the point is, that even though he levels fast, he is always involved with interesting RP.  I like to have my cake and eat it too.  I enjoy the challenge and tactics of combat, but with out the good RP, I would lose any sense of immersion, and the immersion is vital to my enjoyment.

AeonBlues

[stragen]

I play this game far too much.  Much more then all my other hobbies put together.  It is engrossing and addictive.

Jin Lun Lee just reached level 20 early last week.  This took 20 months.  When I initially started playing I expected to reach level 20 in about 9 months, as Jin's first 9 levels took only 3 and a bit months.  

It is roughly 4 million XP to next level.  Assuming Jin receives 100k XP per quest.  I estimate now that it will take me about 40 quest sessions to reach level 21. Averaging around 1 quest a week this would take 10 months.  I will also be able to gain some XP from adventuring.  Assuming Jin can manage another 100k XP per week (optimistic).  Then this is about 5 months  to reach level 21.  

So assuming everything continues smoothly (no R/L, no perming, no sever shutdown) it will have taken over 2 years to create an epic character in Layonara.

As demonstrated by many other players it is possible to level faster, much faster then this.  It is also possible to level slower then this.

I don't think leveling should be changed.

However, I would like the level restrictions for certain locations to be opened up.   That would allow all players to see some of the new work Chongo has put in to the last update.  Currently this is restricted to those characters that are of level 17+.  This favors players of a higher level.  This is those players who have been here longer or those who level faster.

After character interaction (roleplay) I would suggest that party balance and level spread, for example a maximum spread of 10 levels, be the basis of adventure party restrictions.   From my observations, lower level characters get proportionally less XP when combating creatures of high challenge rating.

This suggest would benefit those players who's characters aren't high enough level to visit these locations.  Many of those players in this category are current serving GM's and some of our better static roleplay players.

With the current level restrictions there is a temptation to level quickly just to see the world.

[DMOE]

It would also get the lower level characters killed, alot.  I'm guessing part of the reason isn't simply getting XP but is the difficulty of these encounters.

Not saying that the lower level characters couldn't contribute but that they would need to be 'carried' a little I for one as a player would feel bad if a low level character DT taking on somewhere original stated as lvl 17 and above.

[Leanthar]

Hi folks. Thanks for all of the level headed and constructive points. This type of conversation really does help the team as it is clearly not going too far on any one side and yet it is getting the points across, the important points and the underlying points. I am the type of person that I don't like to put a "band-aid" on a problem but instead like to solve the underlying and root of problems. That is sometimes impossible but at times it is possible, and when constructive input that is level headed and seeing the bigger picture happens sometimes it leads to solid solutions.
 
 It helps with more just NwN as well. These are the kind of posts that give us good ideas and guidelines to try and follow and implement in the new MMO (where we can and when it is possible).

[Eight-Bit]

Hi folks. Thanks for all of the level headed and constructive points. This type of conversation really does help the team as it is clearly not going too far on any one side and yet it is getting the points across, the important points and the underlying points. I am the type of person that I don't like to put a "band-aid" on a problem but instead like to solve the underlying and root of problems. That is sometimes impossible but at times it is possible, and when constructive input that is level headed and seeing the bigger picture happens sometimes it leads to solid solutions.
 
 It helps with more just NwN as well. These are the kind of posts that give us good ideas and guidelines to try and follow and implement in the new MMO (where we can and when it is possible).

All I can say is good luck finding the balance, man. There are a lot of MMOs out there that focus on the staples and basics. Linear character progression in terms of abilities and skills, along with the aged and dusty Experience Collection system, and generic list of classes all combine to make the tried and true system.

What I would love to see is the MMO that removes the XP, Classes, and Levels. Characters would be defined and develop upon how the player chooses to play, rather than a select set of abilities that allow for X class to do Y. What I hate the most about MMOs are the infinite progress bars that must be fill. Everything is measured numerically and shown to a player as such. Development of a character shouldn't be measured as a number. When there is an obvious, numerical goal, you will find that people will always focus their energy upon raising that number so they can get the ability all of the other people who are higher in levels have. I see the future of MMOs as having characters judged by their actions and who they are as characters, and not by their gear, level, and clan.

Having a number to reference to determine the skill and power of your character is a glaring and obvious external source within the game and will always have people thinking in those terms to determine what they are able to do. Without experience and levels, people will be referencing what they have done, how they have done it, and how easily it was preformed. Knowing when something is coming, be it an ability, level, or etc. is practically asking for people to grind for the sake of grinding.

Abilities and skills, in my ideal MMO, would develop according to how the player makes use of themselves. If they attempt to pick locks, they will eventually get better. Are they using a sword - awesome, hack away, and you'll eventually get better. Yet, all incarnations of this that I know of make use of experience. Knowing that each time you hit something will give you 3xp in your Longsword skill seperates the reality of the game world from the system that runs it.

I suppose it comes down to what people want to see. If people are happy with current norm in MMOs, I say more power to them. There is a wide range of selections out there. Yet, these things are relying on a system that was made decades ago. I think it's about time for a change. MMOs have been out for a long time, and even still, there are very few that detract from the established systems. Some go to the MMO Graveyard, Sony Online Entertainment, and others remain in full or moderate force.

MMOs are currently a developer staple. Everyone is out making one. Dan, you really need to focus on what makes your's the best. It will need to out preform a whole lot of publishers in terms of system, accessability, visuals, story, and general content.

Either way, like I've said before, looking at Layonara as a beta for what is to come, I am sold. There are so few people out there, and this includes the entire team you have with you, that are so willing to take massive steps to produce something so creative and original that it boggles my mind this is NWN. I can't wait to see what you guys do without the restrictions Bioware has placed. Where you have access to your own code and can work with a system that is tailored to your needs, rather than tailoring your game around a faulty system, I can only imagine what is going to come from it.

Needless to say, I am happily waiting.

[twidget658]

It would also get the lower level characters killed, alot. I'm guessing part of the reason isn't simply getting XP but is the difficulty of these encounters.
 
 Not saying that the lower level characters couldn't contribute but that they would need to be 'carried' a little I for one as a player would feel bad if a low level character DT taking on somewhere original stated as lvl 17 and above.

 
 I think also it has to do with the drops that some of the higher level CR give. If a party has a good run and there were a lot of adamantium equipment/armor found, for example, the higher level characters already have all of theirs so now the lower levels get it. Yes, there are level restrictions on the equipment, but it can be held onto until they grow into it. Now you have a fully equipped lower level character with a bank full of gold who has never seen a merchant. This has come up in treats about the layo economy as well. Now if you have equipment in the bank that you have to grow into, the player is more inclined to gain the levels faster to be able to fit into it.
 
 There was a soft quest rule (when there is a large level spread among characters) that if a player of a certain level could not get that level drop on their own (meaning the higher level characters got a high level spawn with high value drops), then they could not have it. This was usually governed by the GM. This spread to the rest of the server and I think this is about when the level restrictions came around or started to really get enforcement (not 100% certain on this).

[Xirion]

8bit, what are you suggesting now? Hiding the progression bars? you say if you pick loxks you will get better with it, if you fight with a sword, your skill will increase (like in Dungeon Sige or Morrowind) but you just dont see it as a number saying:Player-XY has 90346points in longsword?
but behind what the player sees,there would be a system... I mean there must be system or how doy ou want to judge if someone fights good with a sword or bad?
Sorry, is not meant as an offence, I see your point, there are some things that makes no sense, just making sure I get you right. Though I dont believe that just hiding the stats would stop anyone from leveling. The whim to be better than others would still be there, only not that easy to see.

[jrizz]

I think also it has to do with the drops that some of the higher level CR give. If a party has a good run and there were a lot of adamantium equipment/armor found, for example, the higher level characters already have all of theirs so now the lower levels get it. Yes, there are level restrictions on the equipment, but it can be held onto until they grow into it. Now you have a fully equipped lower level character with a bank full of gold who has never seen a merchant. This has come up in treats about the layo economy as well. Now if you have equipment in the bank that you have to grow into, the player is more inclined to gain the levels faster to be able to fit into it.
 
 There was a soft quest rule (when there is a large level spread among characters) that if a player of a certain level could not get that level drop on their own (meaning the higher level characters got a high level spawn with high value drops), then they could not have it. This was usually governed by the GM. This spread to the rest of the server and I think this is about when the level restrictions came around or started to really get enforcement (not 100% certain on this).

good points Twidget! this was very pronounced with the update in its frist few weeks. But with the fix in you will see a lot less of this and a move back to the "if you cant use it you cant roll for it" rule. this will be due to the rarity of the drops. The only left over is that we have a few (very few) super equiped PCs out there now.

[Eight-Bit]

8bit, what are you suggesting now? Hiding the progression bars? you say if you pick loxks you will get better with it, if you fight with a sword, your skill will increase (like in Dungeon Sige or Morrowind) but you just dont see it as a number saying:Player-XY has 90346points in longsword?
but behind what the player sees,there would be a system... I mean there must be system or how doy ou want to judge if someone fights good with a sword or bad?
Sorry, is not meant as an offence, I see your point, there are some things that makes no sense, just making sure I get you right. Though I dont believe that just hiding the stats would stop anyone from leveling. The whim to be better than others would still be there, only not that easy to see.

Huh? It's just my ideal MMO rant, man. I'm not saying anything is a suggestion. Half of what I posted is impractical. You, however, only focused on about 1/3 of what I said. I posted about a MMO that had no classes, levels, or experience. What I've seen on MMOs for the post part are people going after the highest possible XP per Hour ratio which also yeilds the highest loot drops. I don't find that entertaining in the least, but I am a person who doesn't often worry about tallying up my XP.

The whim to be better than others is natural, expected, and what keeps a MMO going. The collection of items, gold, and experience are what keeps people paying money to play. I, however, like to see things done outside of the established norms in video games. If you took what Morrowind and Oblivion did for leveling a character, removed all experience benchmarks, and left it up to the player to decide what they should be attempting instead of letting their level and the suggested level of an area set the possibility, you would have a game with a depth and engagment unseen yet in the MMO world.

And chances are, it would flop miserably. People like to raid the same place hourly, get the same items, and watch their XP creep up one step closer to get the horse everyone all ready has. At least SOE would have something interesting to ruin with their updates.

[Pibemanden]

This discussion is pretty good to have as L said because it can help balance things out and such both for the nwn version and the future stand alone version.
I am one of those people who gets through levels faster than most, and if you ask me the reason for this it is pretty clear; quests. Most of my xp is gained there and with the new update there have even been added areas where I get combat xp again.
But does it make the game more fun for me? Not really, sure it is fun to see your character progress and go to new places, but if that was all I was after then I wouldn't be playing here for all that long since I have reached points in earlier versions where I had seen everything.
What makes this place so special is the RP and the quests, that is where you have the most fun, or at least I have the most fun. Sadly I have seen a decrease and some mention in random RP lately, most of the RP now takes place on the way somewhere or while fighting something. It is still fun but it isn't the same as when we were all gathering in Hlint waiting for the next adventure to happen.
However, there are new gathering places as mentioned above but... Four of them is a bit too much, secondly the one that works the Thunderpeaks Crossroads aren't a place my character would hang out simply due to the no magic. That is a pity for me and I am not really going to conplain about that just state a few things about why this place works right now.
[list=1]

• It is where people is This one is pretty logical the more people there are in a given area the more people will come through there and the more random RP can happen there.
  
• It is close to some pretty good areas for getting adventure fast and easy Again, there are many people and it is easy to go there portal from Stormcrest to Dalanthar, Spellgard to North Point or ship from Leringard to Hurm and walk a few areas. Secondly you avoid the "Well we definatly need a mage/cleric for this because I am not going there without insertbuffyouneedhere" so you can pretty fast find a few to go have some fun without the risk of dying to a spell or some nasty ability((Unless you travel really far in and then you should know it gets dangerous just before it gets deadly))
  
• It is a nice area to sit in Of course who doesn't like the titleset and the way it has been build, it is a nice area that is for sure
  

I will have to make it absolutely clear that I have no problem with the no magic area and the fighters having a place to play at all. However one should not over use an area just because it is build for ones class, just as mages/sorcs shouldn't tour up and down on Belinara wailing and weirding everything there.
In the end I think it is a shift of people on the server, for me it seems that most from the old Hlint days are either hiding somewhere untill a quest they would like to join comes up or ends up spending an hour or so sitting in Hempstead or the Stormcrest whitout much happening. The majority of the server now opposed to before spends most of its time scattered around trying to find new adventure and fun instead of as it happened back then everyone gathered in Hlint and went out on occation.
Since more people spend more time doing other stuff they gain more xp and the levels on the server rise. The reason why some have been leveling way faster than most is because of the shift from sitting RP to walking/running RP. On another note it is also more about knowing people now than it was before you don't get to go that many places unless you know someone who would like to go if you want to go there. It makes the cores of these groups stronger than most, but then again unless more random grouping up happens there is a lesser chance that the new person in Hempstead/Vhel will get help with doing something.
However we still have a great community that helps the low level people who just started, not in a bad way by throwing everything they have at the spaws killing them fast but by simply just standing back and letting the low level do the most of the work to get the price although this way is safer and easier than doing it alone. But well if no one bothers to stay back at Hempstead, Stormcrest or Vehl because all the fun is centred around the Central server we will end up closing for the stream of new players to replace those who leaves every now and then.
Is this a change for to good or the bad? Well you can never be sure really, depends on what you want. Some might not like this change others might, however as long as there is RP to be found out there somewhere I will be here. My leveling doesn't really matter much, as long as I have fun doing something in the world that be killing monsters, sitting on a bench or figuring out why something strange just happened at some location it is going to be all fun I like it.

[Odranoela]

Just a quick point:

I find it funny when someone of level 21+ says "Levels don't matter now" ... That's because you got there!

I know there is great RP, and frankly, had I more than a couple of hours per day and maybe one full day of the week to play I would create a pure crafter and/or trader character and just enjoy the cities/people RP opposed to the adventuring life.

I've had so much fun in layo that at times I caught myself roleplaying alone in some areas, or with NPCs just because I was way immersed on the game.

But not all of us have time to jump to level 20 in some months like I've seen happening with many folks here.

As for items, and everyone hunting on the thunderpeaks/wherever for great loot/XP, I'd like to see what jrizz is saying happening and I can't wait for the fix to be released.

I like the level progression in layo, my only problem is not having time enough to play.
Would it be awsome to see the toughest areas and enemies? Yes, most definatly. However I can wait.

[Dorganath]

Just a quick point:

I find it funny when someone of level 21+ says "Levels don't matter now" ... That's because you got there!

You know...not everyone who has gotten to 21+ has gotten there in just a few months.  Speaking only for myself, it took me about 15 months to get to 20 and about as long again to reach 25th.  Granted, there are other circumstance at work for the 20-25 stretch, but the point is that this didn't come because I had some need to get up to 21 as quickly as possible because somehow that would make things more fun. I got there through the natural progression of my character. I was never one to do grinding loops of any area to farm gold, XP and items.

And yeah, I climbed the 3 million barrier without a ECDQ/WLDQ and it was not that big of a deal....really.

As for items, and everyone hunting on the thunderpeaks/wherever for great loot/XP, I'd like to see what jrizz is saying happening and I can't wait for the fix to be released.

The fix has been released.  Loot and gold drops are now much more under control and far less generous (meaning, in line with where they should have been).  We can tune things as we go now, so there'll be no more protracted periods of large amounts of valuable loot falling into the hands of the few.  It's an unfortunate turn of events that let things be so permissive for so long, but all we can really do is fix it and move on.  Right now, we have control of things, so they can only get better.