dual weapons

[merlin34baseball]

Hello,

Just wondering what the advantages were for weapons such as the dual longsword and scimitars and such.  Do you get the advantages of dual weilding without the feats? or...

Soon I'll get to play again and am just contemplating weaponry for a new char.

Thanks.

[Xirion]

As far as I know it is mechanically the same as two wepons.
So it requires the feats in order to get not the high penalty and so on...
on the other hand you have the benefit of one attack more per round.

>Xirion>

[Pibemanden]

Dual? If you mean the double weapons, dire mace and such the advantage is that the "off-hand" weapon is treated as a light weapon which lowers the AB hit you get from dualwielding.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

The problem with Dualing two Long Swords or Scimitars, is that even if you have ever Dual Feat "2Weap and Imp2Weap and AmbiDex...  You still take a bigger offhand penalty for using a medium weapon.

[lore]Two-Weapon Fighting[/lore]

Look here for the specifics...  But If you want the most outta Dualing, use a Longsword and a short sword, or a Scimitar and a Short sword.  For the MOST effective technique, Use a Rapier and a Short sword, take All Dual feats AND weapFinesse...

[miltonyorkcastle]

Right, you still need the feats ([LORE]ambidexterity[/LORE]/[LORE]two-weapon fighting[/LORE]/[LORE]improved two-weapon fighting[/LORE]) to avoid heavy attack bonus penalties. (pointed out by Xirion)

And a double-weapon, like the two-bladed sword or the orc double-axe, count as though you were wielding a medium weapon and a light weapon, but do the damage of two-medium weapons. (Pibe's note above)

I'd suggest looking up the feat descriptions on LORE. (hit the links above)

EDIT: Dern fast Stephen....

[merlin34baseball]

yep what I ment was the double weapons, like double bladed longsword.  So if I'm reading right you still need to take dual weilding feats.  They're not like a staff that is considered one weapon. Right?

One of my other chars is a dual weilder so I know the feats, I was just hoping that the dual bladed longswords acted like a staff would, oh well...

Oh and you all are fast!  Couldn't even type my reply before you all answered!

[miltonyorkcastle]

Right. You need the feats for the Double Weapons.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

But you DONT need Imp two weapon necessarily.  since it just gives you one extra attack with the second weapon.

[Falonthas]

you dont need the dual weapon feats to wield such
you only need the exotic weapon feat

double blade longsword, scimtar, axe whatever
all fall under exotic to wield them

and tehn you can simply specialize them
you dont need ambi or two weapon fight

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Not taking them is ridiculous though...  You get a -4 to ALL AB, which makes no sense when you can reduce it to -2, and then -1 with weapon focus.

[Falonthas]

yes but the question was were they needed to use the weapon

if you take exotic weapon feat at lvl 1 you can use them with the penalties

[lonnarin]

The one good thing about double-weapons is that you only need one spell for both ends, whereas two seperate weapons need two seperate spells for the same effect.  This is very useful for parties where the mage or cleric has limited amounts of magic weapon, keen or darkfire at their disposal.  Often times when people ask ogzug if he can enflame their other weapons, I suggest them to go buy a doublesword, heheh.

Now the downsides are many.  One, weapon finnessers don't have any double-weapons light enough to make use of their dexterity.  Two, they are all very heavy in the backpack, usually moreso than that Longsword and shortsword combo.  Three, they are all too large for small characters to use, and four, the custom ones like double-scimitar will not work with weapon focus or specialization feats.  The ones that do however, like doubleaxe or sword, would be very deadly in the hands of a weaponmaster.

I am not entirely certain how well these would work Attack Bonus-wise with larger half-giants or half-ogres, or if they would recieve the "two small weapon bonus" that a human with two short swords, or gnome with two daggers would recieve.  Usually you only get the best out of two-weapons if the mainhand is medium and the offhand is small, but you can get the same effect with two small weapons, or two tiny sized ones.

Now if only we had PnP quarterstaves which could be twirled double-weapon style, triple-nunchaku or dire flails... the latter two which could concievably fit under finnese.

[Eight-Bit]

Not taking them is ridiculous though...  You get a -4 to ALL AB, which makes no sense when you can reduce it to -2, and then -1 with weapon focus.

   Not taking them actually results in a -10/-10 Attack bonus scenario. Taking them all (Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting) results in a -2/-2 penalty with double weapons. For example, if you are a level 20 Fighter with 30 strength your base attack bonus will be +28/+23/+18/+13 (primary hand) and +28/23 (off hand). That is very powerful. Combine that with Improved Knockdown and Called Shot and you have a very powerful Cripple build. This is the difference between five attacks and six attacks. You will hit as often as a monk, which without Monk levels is pretty impressive.

   The fall back is that you will need to invest a lot into dexterity(a base of 15 dexterity, even!) and take 3 more feats than a single-weapon fighter. (4 if you factor in Exotic Weapons)  As usual, items and subrace bonuses do not boost your base abilities for feats. Because your are loosing out on a lot of feats it is recommended that you seek to specialize early and work towards the "extras" later. Dual wield efficiently as fast as possible. With a fighter this is possible at level 12. Cleave is recommended, but Great Cleave evens out in the mid game and serves very little purpose unless you're going to be a Weapon Master.  Expertise and Improved Expertise aren't necessary, but are still recommended in your build for the "Oh, shoot!" moments where an extra five or ten AC is useful. If you seek to eventually take Weapon Master levels be sure that you are using a NWN standard double-weapon (Double Sword, Double Axe, and Double Mace). Non-standards do not have the same feats (Imp Crit, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec) and will cause you to loose a lot of potential power due to a stylistic decision and prevent you from becoming a weapon master.  

    Due to the amount of feats involved it is efficient to play a human fighter. However, because of the dexterity investment, playing an Elf fighter is equal. You will loose out on 2 Con points, however, which can be a problem in your middle game.

   From experience with this type of character I find that using a medium weapon with a shield makes your early game easier. If you hold onto your shield, even a copper tower shield combined with expertise and improved expertise will provide a +8 or +13 bonus to AC depending on which feat you eventually take.

   In the medium and late game you will want to get Spring Attack. Because you are giving up on some defense (About a max of 5 AC - which is usually the difference from being hit on every attack late in the game and not being hit.) for an additional 2 attacks and all the goodness that comes with it.

   In my experience, this build is fun to play, will always gain in power, and can be a huge threat in almost any field of battle when played properly. To play properly you are going to want to move along the sides of the battle, and let the well-armored and high Con people take the damage while you are killing the enemies attacking them. With Spring attack you can usually break the enemy line and take out their casters before the fighters can react. It's risky, but that is what this build is all about, really.

I ramble.

[Spike]

Just a quick question because this topic was brought up.

I was planning to play my character with him wielding two bastard swords to go for a max damage approach. Is this wise? With all the feats that still means a -4/-4 reduction. Should I scrap this idea and just go for a two-bladed sword?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Depends on the character, but in terms of just numbers?

It's a trade-off of +2 to attack, and 1d8 vs. 1d10.

I'd go with the two-bladed sword, myself.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I agree with Stephen. Plus, very few folks use the two-bladed sword around here. Would be neat to see a character use one.

[Polak76]

Just a quick question because this topic was brought up.

I was planning to play my character with him wielding two bastard swords to go for a max damage approach. Is this wise? With all the feats that still means a -4/-4 reduction. Should I scrap this idea and just go for a two-bladed sword?

Go the two-bladded sword.
It's more economical for spells and looks much better.  I think image is more important than a little extra damage.

Hopefully you havent wasted feats in focus (B/Sword...etc).

Cheers,
Polak76

[Weeblie]

Doesn't two-bladed weapons also receive a 1,5 strength modifier? Meaning that it could be quite significant, if the strength is high enough...

[lonnarin]

You get all of your strength mod in damage on the first weapon, then half of your strength mod rounded down on the second weapon, works the same for double weapons.  When you weild a doublehander, you get double your strength mod in dmg.

[Xirion]

You get all of your strength mod in damage on the first weapon, then half of your strength mod rounded down on the second weapon, works the same for double weapons.  When you weild a doublehander, you get double your strength mod in dmg.

Isn't a double hander getting 1,5x the strength-mod?!