EVERYONE DISCUSS!

[Chongo]

This is a pretty clear case of someone who does not have the full picture but acts on the little he knows, with some vigor I'll add.  It occurs quarterly on average.

This entire concept of retailer, customer, producer is extremely naive.  It shows the person in hand has played around with the toolset, understands a mechanic here and there, but has never really had to work with a group to do anything with this game.

Layonara is a gameworld sporting some... what is it?  50+ active staff.  Hell, when I tried my spin at this all, I could barely handle working with more then 15 people.  So these very quaint theories on lack of effort for such easy fixes are just really naive and failing to recognize the organizational structure that is the only thing holding Layo's massive staff together.

The comparison to a retailor, a provider of a service... it's bad one to make.  This screams lack of understanding of what it takes to run a gameworld, and the incredible lack of reward.  A retailor would be rewarded.  The only reward Layonara recieves is brand name and pride.  In grade school, junior high, and high school, these rewards substantiate effort, and all people are expected to deliver effort for these rewards.  In real life they don't.  You work for money.  And if you aren't getting paid, and instead for something benefitting the people around you, then it is in turn the *community* who provides respect for what you do.  This is what keeps volunteer organizations going that are trying to save the planet one tree or lost soul at a time.

Favortism.. *yawn*.  I like favoritism.  You know what favoritism is?  It's the creator helping us out by pointing out the correct examples for behavior, class, and style.  It is helping maintain a server in the image of what was intended.  It is making the gameworld a consistently better place because there are standards right there in front of you.  Act on favorites?  I bloody hope they do!  Make them GM's, make them producers for the module.  It's common sense!  The people willing and able will rise to help maintain the quality of their surroundings.  Now, I'm assuming the staff will disagree with me on that entirely, because they do their best to maintain things in a fair and equal manner across the board with pretty impressive visibility.  Call it my nationalistic view on Layonara.  The little man always crys favoritism for a simple reason.  He doesn't fit, or more often then not he doesn't rate, and should be booted out of the country so he can find his place elsewhere.

And everything spouted right there in that post perpetuates the vicious cycle of disgust.  When you decry a group of volunteers, when you spray terms that basically imply they are hideous human beings, what do you expect as a response?  Lack of motivation is what I would expect.  Disgust.  Because there's a lot of honest hard working people in there that just got called scum.  When they're getting nothing but pride in return for their services.  And you just ruined that relationship.  No pride, no service, no service, no pride.  Let's keep the cogs moving instead eh?

I really encourage you to start your own server.  You're going to gain a few gray hairs over the years you end up lasting, and at around your tenth 'volunteer/employee', you're going to start gritting your teeth at your own systems and expectations.  At around your 10th disgruntled rant from a player, your going to send an apology letter to Leanthar.  And when your wife or girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, comes in one day and starts the conversation on the going tally for the start-up services you've been paying for, the $55/ month for your single low end low performance server, your domain costs, your website costs, and what it's totalled for that year, and the fact that you're always angry about it, that your helpers and volunteers burn out after two months because of lacking reward, and that you're juggling to keep it all together because you don't want to lose your efforts... you're going to send an apology letter to the entire community with lessons learned and hope that they listen and skip foward on the knowledge so they can just keep up the happy relationship that this all takes to survive.  At least that's how it worked for me.  Except the costs were a fair bit higher as I had 3 servers.  And far too few donations, and far more outbursts.  Good grief I'm happy to be here as a player...

Now multiply that all about tenfold, realize that's what they've actually pulled off here, and think about how long you would've lasted..... no pride, no service, no service, no pride... the cogs keep on turning.  All the would be wrenches should pack up now and leave.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I don't plan on this being long-winded... But it may end up that way. We'll see.

Having been here over a year, and having let myself see the "favoritism" (heavy quotation marks on that one) that goes on here in the past... I can honestly say that this whole issue is moot.

Kiva said it himself. In a long-standing community, there will ALWAYS be some perception of favoritism, whether real or imagined. I can't argue that.

The thing is, it doesn't matter. We're here to play a game, take part in a community in a constructive way, and to RP.

I don't sweat stuff, big or small, and the truth is, there really isn't anything big to sweat about.

That's all there is to it.

[jrizz]

I guess I do have a technical question (since Dorg offered). I know you said that tells are not logged by the server but here is my question: Can our tells be seen by anyone outside of the conversation?

[Acacea]

Tells: no. Talk, whispers, party: yes, as usual.

[Vyris]

Ug... my head hurts after reading the brick of complaint-text. Honestly, Honora said a lot of good stuff, as well as those that have replied "Ho-hum, another rant" have pretty well pegged my feelings on the whole thing. See you all in about 3-4 months for the next installment.


Vyris

[FlameStrike]

The maintenance of the server comes from the GM Team's motivation and hard work, and also straight out of Leanthar's pocket, so the bottom line is:

 Play by L's rules, or hit the road.

 

[Grid Blader]

If you dont like it here, try another server..

[jrizz]

thought I would add a few more things:
Anyone that is equating WW’s analogy of the retailer/manufacture/customer to a monetary issue is missing his point entirely. Not that I am intending to insult anyone, just needed to point this out. He is talking about symbiotic relationships (SR) and any PW has a SR between those that run the world and those that play in it. There would be no world to play in without the world team (WT) and it would not be a world worth playing in without the players. I know that all members of the WT are also players but to make a world fun and full you need a large base of players and not all of them can be on the WT. Although any of them can be on the WT.

He makes the claim that WL status is for Layo world team buddies. We can dispel this quite quickly. How many of the WL group are RL friends with any of the Layo world team group? I know there is some overlap but that is another point that needs to be looked at. Not all Layo team members have WL PCs. That fact shows a lot.

WW said “I was having a conversation with a player that I will not name and this player told me that Layonara is the GMs' sandbox and you need to play nice with their toys.” I don't know why he finds this sad. It is true that is just how it is. If the GMs and Layo team were really acting as unfairly as WW thinks then the players would leave and the sandbox would be a sad and lonely place. But the fact is it is full and fun.

I have not always agreed with the team’s rulings on things. I know there is a guideline for SS reimbursement and there is a guideline for WL status. I have seen instances in both areas that I did not agree with and I sent L a PM each time. He has been consistent in his replies. They were along the lines of “yeah I know that was a hard choice but we have to stick to our rules all the time or the system will fail” (this is paraphrased). Not much can be said to that, at least we know that if we fulfill ALL the requirements we will get approved. Those requirements are pretty clear. If you want to do something, read the rules of the dispute forum or what it takes to be a WL and question anything that you feel is vauge. That is what participation is about.

[AbnerMojo]

I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.

I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.

Like for example, I as a player have some issues with how poison and trap making are in their current states in the game. And how it impacts the rogue class. Now imagine that I have never read these boards before, and I read that?

I'm not going to think to write an intelligent post explaining my stance and why I feel it is a problem that should be discussed. If anything it makes me wanna find a new server to play on. Because it appears the community isn't even open to hearing me out or discussing it. And will view me as just another complainer.

It in essece inadvertently enforces a lack of communication. Which is perhaps the thing we should avoid first and foremost.

What I'd like to believe people mean when they say that is, don't try and get everything your way. But yeah, if you do have an issue, toss it out and we'll talk about it.

Also, it kind of tosses weight to the perception of favoritism in a way, when you see sevral people going to support a staffers position on a topic. A staffer replies, and lays it out. Hey fine, that's the policy. Now five others respond, not to say they are, but they come off as yes men. Especially if they do not offer the slightest difference from the all ready stated point of a staffer. Let me state again, I'm not saying that is what happens. It is how it can be perceived, especially to a new user.

I just thought that was worth mentioning.

[Chongo]

jrizz - 12/11/2006  5:24 PM

Anyone that is equating WW’s analogy of the retailer/manufacture/customer to a monetary issue is missing his point entirely. Not that I am intending to insult anyone, just needed to point this out. He is talking about symbiotic relationships (SR) and any PW has a SR between those that run the world and those that play in it. There would be no world to play in without the world team (WT) and it would not be a world worth playing in without the players. I know that all members of the WT are also players but to make a world fun and full you need a large base of players and not all of them can be on the WT. Although any of them can be on the WT.

You're off base.  Your idea isn't so much, but your interpretation of his statements is.  He directly likened Layonara to a product sold to a customer.  This is not a sold product.  It can't be returned and was never bought.  It has none of his aforementioned service guarantees nor warranties.  The producer, retailer, whatever he wants to call it, is losing money.  

"Can you imagine what it would be like if you went to a store to return a broken item and they yelled at you and blamed you for breaking it?"

Let's get a big reality check here.  It's a borrowed product.  From your neighbor.  And you better believe that if you bring it back broken or throw it through their window they're going to yell at you.  I can dig out more quotes if you need me to, though reading the entirity of his little thesis shows that his ideas are completely lost in the sauce as far as reality is concerned.  His interpretation of the symbiotic relationship is extremely warped.

There's no doubt that there's a symbiosis between players and developers on a world like Layonara where the developing individuals are, at the core, acting out of benevolence.  This is where this entire thought process is skewed, and it's surprising how many people really think this way.  They are acting out of benevolence to keep this running.  Players make the mistake of thinking that they are the integral key to the world.  No offense, but we aren't.  Sure, the developer's labors were towards a pretty grand world with a large player base.  And sure, if the developers were the evil villains that he declares, they'd lose this massive player base.

But to say that we're needed to survive?  Two thoughts on this:

1) We're not.  In fact, if everyone were definitively an arse, like the example we're focusing on, I'm sure the developing individuals and those keeping it afloat would pursue the decisive action of making it a private server, they'd probably have a heck of a lot more fun with just 50+ good people instead of 50+ good people surrounded by a lot of pollution.  There's no doubt that there are intruiging benefits to being a massive MP, but there's a breaking point people just fail to recognize.  And it's presumptuous to start thinking this way.  Sure, the developers will promote the importance of each and every player... but get it straight, it's because they're nice people trying to make sure everyone has a good time.  And sure there's a colorful world emerging from it that gives the flavor that is Layonara.  But it's not out of dire need.
2) Crunch the numbers.  % of donations on either side.  I think you'll find that this service demanding contingent is comprised of leeches.  So no, not needed to survive.

If you don't respect someone or something, then get away from it.  Don't try to warp reality for everyone else so it fits together better in your conscience.  If a server truly acts in the manner he declares, they'll fail.  *looks around* Looking good so far!  Flames can sometimes be percieved as a desperate cry to make something better.  And sometimes they have some notable ideas.

The points in that thesis, however, did not.

That guy is lost in the sauce, his points only make sense to the most ignorant of the realities in running a world like this.  And I really hope that he and anyone else feeling the same figures that out someday, because until then, they are in fact better known as: idiots.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

You're right on all counts, Abner, but I'd like to state two things.

1) It really IS their sandbox. If we don't like it, we leave, and they spend their days lonely and unfulfilled.

2) Most people, when confronted with someone going off on an anti-Layo rant, will pull out the classic Sandbox quote. Myself, I prefer the Don't Sweat It line... Because, honestly, the stuff most of the irate players are all in a huff about isn't such a big deal. The few things that are important (like the traps issue, or Acrobatic Attack) get their due discussion, and most have been hashed and rehashed a dozen times... But the Dev team is still on the job.

[Chongo]

AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006  5:57 PM

I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.

I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.

Like for example, I as a player have some issues with how poison and trap making are in their current states in the game. And how it impacts the rogue class. Now imagine that I have never read these boards before, and I read that?

I'm not going to think to write an intelligent post explaining my stance and why I feel it is a problem that should be discussed. If anything it makes me wanna find a new server to play on. Because it appears the community isn't even open to hearing me out or discussing it. And will view me as just another complainer.

It in essece inadvertently enforces a lack of communication. Which is perhaps the thing we should avoid first and foremost.

What I'd like to believe people mean when they say that is, don't try and get everything your way. But yeah, if you do have an issue, toss it out and we'll talk about it.

Also, it kind of tosses weight to the perception of favoritism in a way, when you see sevral people going to support a staffers position on a topic. A staffer replies, and lays it out. Hey fine, that's the policy. Now five others respond, not to say they are, but they come off as yes men. Especially if they do not offer the slightest difference from the all ready stated point of a staffer. Let me state again, I'm not saying that is what happens. It is how it can be perceived, especially to a new user.

I just thought that was worth mentioning.

Right, but there's a line you don't cross on this.  Figure out your expertise and make suggestions that match your paygrade.

In other words, if you work for Microsoft, and are a secretary who primarily makes copies and gets coffee for the office...

You Can:
- Log an issue with a broken copying machine to the appropriate manager
- Make a suggestion for a better coffee supplier
- Let the management know that one of the bathroom toilets is leaking
- Do some research and make a suggestion on a new copying machine that you think might be better

You Can't:
- Write a letter, paste it all over the company walls, that says Bill Gate's organizational structure is jacked up and he is a terrible terrible human being because of it.
- Storm into a VP's office and proceed to let him know his operations management is jacked up because a toilet is broken.

Microsoft is a bad example given a lot of people's opinions... let's make it a volunteer NPO instead that deals with saving alaskan wildlands.  Transfer the level of audacity/ tact versus knowledge base.

Suggestions are a great thing!  Just all of us should be respectful when approaching something that is technically or organizationally a bit above our paygrade.  And yeah, telling the GM Team how to run the show is above my paygrade, and I'll be pretty darn nice if I approach a subject on that.  Because I don't know the intricacies of their system, I don't fully know all of their rules, and I don't want to sound like an arse when I am truly trying to help fix something.  People who storm the office aren't trying to fix things, they're trying to burn them down.

[LynnJuniper]

Great....now I feel like a lowly serf who'se opinion isn't worth hearing...

[Acacea]

I must not be Lawful; "if you don't like it, leave," is not an acceptable response for me. Or perhaps it's more like "I'm Lawful Neutral," where it's not really the letters that make up the words of the law that are important to me, but specifically whether those rules are efficient and serve the purpose they are intended for, as well as being upheld across the board from a neutral standpoint.

The answer is not always yes. The DMs are not a collective entity with a label reading "The Team" on it. They are not perfect, nor are you granted +20 WIS and CHA when you are welcomed into it. While there are many people that are loyal to a fault every day and step up to defend without thought, I just can't do that. If everyone up and "hit the road" one day, there would be no more Layonara. I don't get along with every DM or player, nor do I care to try. I have friends among both, some who do not get along at all. I still have friends among the playerbase who feel viciously wronged by the DMs and rant about them solely on principle, just as I have friends that are the targets. It would not be healthy for me to be overly influenced by either, because neither would any longer respect my opinion. My friendships have made me a target several times in the past despite my attempts at remaining on the side of reason rather than preference.

It is important to understand that we're all players. The DMs come from the same pool that we play in. Are you perfect? Are you capable of making judgments every day about the same people you hang out with? Can you tell a friend "no," not just when they're doing something wrong but when there's really no harm done? Do you enjoy public scrutiny, having your every action looked at under a microscope and being dragged through the mud? Do you like having to opt out of things that normally you'd be able to enjoy without thought, but because of your status it would 'look bad?' These are not excuses but simply 'setting,' reasons that things cannot be perfect 100% of the time. Just because things don't always go the way they should--and NOTHING can ever please everyone--does not really lend credence to conspiracy theories.

If you think about it, knowing that the DMs come from players, can you REALLY imagine each of them getting along so well that they could pull it off? No! People can't always agree!

Saying "it's just a game," doesn't do it for me, because while yes, it is, it is a game that needs a working relationship between the community in order to be functional and enjoyable.

Are the DMs able to see things from a different perspective than the player? Frequently. Are they always right? No. Am I always right? Yes. I mean no. I mean most of the time. (*Shifty-eyes.*)

The thing that is actually kind of funny is how different the demands are when they come up. Stop being so hard on everyone! It's a game, cut us some slack! When the response is "which people do we cut slack, when, and how much?" it's just a frustrated mumble because no one wants to deal with it, they just know THEY want slack for themselves and their friends, and DEFINITELY not for a GM, WL, high level character, friend of DM, friend of WL, someone they don't like, or anyone that has perhaps earned it. Such is life. That's why things are tightened, not loosened--you can't give it to everyone that deserves it. I suspect the whole process will be removed completely; few understand that the alternative is not "a better system" or "being nicer," but simply "nothing at all," because it can no longer be kept up.

One of several sadder things in the post is that he is correct in that many people will be nodding his heads with what they read, never mind that he has proven himself a liar several times over (and a poor one...even I suspected that one when I saw the portrait and need to have the 'human' with abyssal and infernal blood, a reminder of the first submission from the shadow plane), regardless of whether you get along with him or not. You can still like a guy and be able to see the blatant untruths in what he says, whether it is from malicious intentions or simply fed-up misunderstandings. Even if you ignore completely the bitter and horribly biased generalizations, the outright lies taint the entire paragraph-less post and what minor points he may have had for someone (I assume they're there and I just couldn't find them in the text block) are lost.

If your goal is to make a point, take not the road of martyrdom, for its path is not paved with reason. But reason is not the weapon of choice for many, so those who automatically agree with the team without thought for whatever reason will continue to do so, those who disagree under the guise of agreement ("sure there's blatant favoritism and everybody sucks and I hate them, but its their right!") will continue to do so, and those who for whatever reason automatically disagree will continue to nod even if they don't have the courage to raise their hand after the person they are agreeing with is shot to pieces (would you?). Unfortunately nothing can ever be resolved or explained if it is never asked to be clarified, even when threads like these are created for that very purpose.

Having everyone discuss it does not actually close the gap; it merely flags it for awhile and lets people shout at each other from across it.

[Chongo]

Additionally, two big points:

- I'm not on staff and my opinions are not necessarily shared by anyone but me and my 32 alter egos.
- It's quite clear that individuals on staff are a lot nicer then I am, so don't start thinking they share my level of disgust.  I just think a lot of people take a gracious host for granted and are really forgetting any fragment of tact/ general manners.

[OneST8]

I would just like to state that no team member of Layonara is saying "put up or shut up".

What I am saying at least though is that communication is fundamental to the fabric of any community and ours is no exception. If you have a question, comment or concern regarding anything Layonara specific you should be raising that question *somewhere* where the community can discuss it.

This is precisely why when I woke up this morning and did my normal rounds of the forums... I got two sentences into White Wolf's post, stopped right there, froze the thread and started a second one for discussion (cross linking the two). Next, I went and read the entire thing. Twice. I still couldn't fully absorb the mess that was his panic rant but one thing I discerned was that he was certainly painting a bad picture of the admin staff and GM team. That's when I started up the poll regarding how the staff treats the community because that is seemingly the most important point he got across to me.

All of this is in direct response to the poor communication practices of one individual who had he communicated with the general community and GM teams, things may have gone much different.

There's the forums, IRC, PMs, email, instant messangers, just about every known method of communication on the internet is supported by Layonara. (The only services not officially supported are things like TeamSpeak and such simply because voice com kills any chance of flexible RP.) If I didn't want you getting my email address it wouldn't be on my profile.

Personally I prefer the totally public mediums like the forums simply because *more* people can get involved in the discussions and of course this makes the process that much more transparent for all to witness.

Some things can be changed, some things can't. Don't know? Ask. Got a better idea? Share. Discuss. Come to a resolution. That's how it works. That's communication. That's community at work. That's *exactly* why the free software movement can't be stopped by greed. It's the community that makes it or breaks it but that doesn't mean we can't ever fix it.

[jrizz]

So Chongo *smiles* you dont think the player base is one of the top key components of a rich and deep PW? *raises an eyebrow* You feel that a PW without a large and diverse populace is still a fulfilling user experience, just based on the areas, npcs, crafting system, mods, and all the other things that it takes? *looks stern and then smiles* I feel that all these things have equal importance and rely on each other to create such a rich and compelling experience, that keeps us coming back time and again? *pokes chongo and grins*

[Acacea]

I don't really think that's what he said.

Edit for clarification, I was referring sort of to the everyone vs someone concepts but have typed way too much today...

[Dorganath]

OK guys... let's step back a second.
  I realize what I am about to say is going to sound a little like self-promotion, but read and understand the words, not the person who's saying them.
  Layonara is what it is because of 3 primary things:
  1) Leanthar's vision and plan 2) Thousands of hours of work from the GM, Project and Writing Teams 3) Countless contributions, suggestions and actions (both in-game and out) by the Community.
  What does this mean? Primarily, there are some things that are core and largely static within Layonara. These are the things that Leanthar keeps this way to maintain the integrity of the world and to stay true to his own vision for this world. Let's not forget, he's been building this setting since the mid 1980's. Ultimately, it's his, and as such, we're all subject to his "house rules"....even the GM Team.
  There are other things which have evolved over time. No small percentage of these were due to player community suggestions and such. I can honestly say, without people voicing their "petty gripes" as one has said, Layonara would be different...much different.
  So there are some things which are immutable, because that is the way Leanthar wants them to be. In as far as these items are concerned, there is a choice as to whether or not you as a player can accept those limitations. If not, then the choice to stay or go is in your hand entirely, and I'm fairly certain that somewhere out there is another server more to your liking. I don't say that as a "shut up and play" statement, but rather simply as a matter of being in a place that you can feel comfortable.
  If there is something that doesn't seem right to you, bring it up. We'll listen. We won't always act, but we will listen. Everyone's opinion here matters, from the most senior GM to the newest player and everyone in between.

[Chongo]

@ jrizz I suppose you could read what I said and put those particular words together to make a point...

Let me extract a different set of words, written next to each other this time.

"If you don't respect someone or something, then get away from it. Don't try to warp reality for everyone else so it fits together better in your conscience. If a server truly acts in the manner he declares, they'll fail. *looks around* Looking good so far!"

So again, Layo is a better place for the way they treat everyone and maintain this transparent/ everyone is equal/ all you opinions count policy.

What happened to mutual respect?  You don't take that benevolent precendent and then defecate all over it because they said you had a voice here.  And you don't declare that because you are someone that they said was important to them, that you can act without any semblance of deference to the people who are 1) paying, and 2) working for your gametime.  The latter half being the important and most often ignored.