EVERYONE DISCUSS!

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

After being caught up in a really long story in Hlint that lasted three hours this post is coming a lot later then I intended it to come. Sorry for those of you that would actually want to read one of my rants I neglected you, just remember you’re the minority.

Normally I would steer well clear of this subject, in fact I would pretend it didn’t exist. This is simply because I am not a nice person by any standard unless that standard involves serial murder, genocide, and corrupt politicians. However it seems this is my limit.

Leanthar by his very nature is a absurdly forgiving person. When I had first heard that Kiva was banned I had assumed that he was simply asked to disappear since no one liked him. In turn he would generate a new account and things would proceed. When I bumped into him I simply laughed since a blind-toddler should of recognized his style its as obvious as my spelling.

So lets take his little ‘They monitor your tells’ bit. Lets say that our tells are recorded in the log file, in that log file is also the following.
1)   Every single combat roll or dice roll.
2)   Every single last bit of text we speak in any channel
3)   Every single thing an NPC or Crafting Station Says
4)   Every single bit of XP that is ever given out
5)   Every single monster that does a silent shout
6)   Every single load script
There are probably more, but I would say its safe to say that the text log is so flooded you would really have to be doing something warranting them spending ten hours trying to find any tell of yours much less an incriminating one. Assuming that the log file even has it anymore because it has more then likely been overwritten and erased from the 2 gigs of data a week it processes.

I have donated not even a single penny to Layonara in all the years I have played, not a cent. More then likely I am the single biggest bandwidth abuser in Layonara’s history since I probably have logged three times more hours then anyone else. If anything at all, I am the provider of my Ozzyish Services and Layonara is paying me with letting me get away with this abuse.

The classic why isn’t this small bug fix addressed within ten minutes of its creation, I of course looked at the thread. It explains that the fix will be in next update, sure the fix itself already is likely complete. After all it does very literally take less then ten minutes to do so, however there is loading the module, making certain nothing else is broken, double checking the trigger, fixing this and that. Which is why Layonara does not update for every single small bug in existence. Instead it updates them all at once in one go.

Ok the water-drip issue, it takes about twenty seconds to load each one another ten to close them, about a minute to open each area, generally a minute and a half to find each one assuming you already know where. I calculated from my notes on the location of these things from memory alone so I’m missing some it would take 42 hours to fix each and every single one to be marked plot. Forty-Two hours of the most boring thing you can do with the toolset not to mention any setbacks due to crashes or any other instance and that’s working at peak speeds. I would put money on this issue being resolved in V3 before it even begins simply because the base object has been edited. Something that cannot be reverse engineered due to Bioware game mechanics.

Favoritism, Exploiting, Cheating amongst the DM’s. It happens, I’ve seen it many times over the years. Your really going no where with this just flailing wildly instead of being coherent, provide an example with a screenshot and explanation and Leanthar will handle it. Even his incomprehensible forgiveness can meet its limit, just look at how long he turned the other cheek to you coming back after a ban.

World Leaders, as I am one I feel any comment I make will be taken as propaganda. That said however I will do my best to coherently prove that at least one World Leader actually deserves the title and would be a World Leader with or Without the system. My first case shall be of course myself, if I can’t justify to me why I’m a World Leader then I should hand in my tools right now. Simply put, I’ll be telling stories in Hlint with or without that World Leader title, I was doing it at level one I will be doing it at level forty. That is the sole reason I ended up a World Leader, if you can solidly dispute that I deserve it I will resign.

My second subject would be Brac’ar Fireface, not many of you know him but that name, you may call him EdTheKet. Not many of you know him, that’s not a surprise he doesn’t log to many hours. This is not because he is negligent, not because he is incompetent or favoritism this is because he is busy. Well you can say we are all busy, but what he is mostly busy with is writing a handbook, detailing the world. Back before he was drafted to be a DM he was putting in about three quarters the number of online hours as I was, which is a lot of hours. Being an extremely talented Role-player he ended up a DM and he always is impressive in action. So once the third handbook comes out you will see him and will agree that he well deserves the title and even if he didn’t have it he would be a World Leader.

There you go two cases where the WL title matters not at all, people that would still be doing there thing. One whom can devote a crazy number of hours online. The other that makes the first guys job even remotely possible. So that is not one instance but two examples of reasonable World Leaders. I bet if I put my mind to it I could go down the line and explain why for each person.

I don’t like all the DM’s I’d actually like to see a few removed. A few DM’s no doubt want to see me banned. I can forgive them for being human, and as I’m posting this they have no doubt forgiven me. Though no doubt we will continue not to like each other. The rest of his rant seems to be drivel unworthy of my attention.

I never nodded in agreement once. He was on the right track with some things but either sounded like an idiot or went about things the wrong way so his point was missed. That in essence is my fourteen paragraphs of comments.

[Vyris]

AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006  5:57 PM

I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.

I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.

I am not saying your wrong, but....

consider it from my point of view, having been a player, a GM and then a player again after a break You stick around long enough and things like this seem to come up on a fairly regular basis, really, you could create a Layonara calendar off the regularity of some of these issues appearing in the forums.

Now, that being said I don't think they recur because the team doesn't care, in fact I know that to be a fallacy. The opposite is true in fact. I can relate from my experience on the GM team that hours and hours are spent trying to figure out the BEST way to do things. There is a difference between easy, fair, balanced and BEST. You're never going to get a solution that is all of those, but the GM team tries really hard to come as close as they can.

The reason that these things keep coming back is because despite everything that I said in the LAST paragraph, theres always a few people who get bent out of shape about whatever the GM team deems to be the BEST way to deal with whatever situation they get peeved about. After a while it just gets to be old hat to see someone who is getting banned come back for one last manifesto, or to see that "What I hate about how Drow are on Layonara" post, etc.

Thus, my "If you can't hang... drop" attitude.

Vyris

[Pen N Popper]

Funny!
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32477&posts=10&start=1
[INDENT]  Just comes on the forum to let everyone know he's quitting for good and to spend a dozen paragraphs explaining why. Then does it again three months later.      Sample Quote: "For real, this time."      Punishment: Forced to actually quit.  
[/INDENT]

[Etinfall]

Vyris-The reason that these things keep coming back is because despite everything that I said in the LAST paragraph, theres always a few people who get bent out of shape about whatever the GM team deems to be the BEST way to deal with whatever situation they get peeved about. After a while it just gets to be old hat to see someone who is getting banned come back for one last manifesto, or to see that "What I hate about how Drow are on Layonara" post, etc.  
 
  Ok...now I will say something.
 
  Drow are mean, Vy!!!!!
 
  said my piece.
 
 
 
  This is my post and by no means can be legally purchased from itunes.

[ThrainSil]

Yes I suppose it pays to travel with a DM or be a World leader.  Yes it very much feels like favoritism to me.  Yes the very higher ups look like a protected class.

But well...... The kings don’t eat rancid meet while their lords have fresh venison!

D&D is a feudal society as are all the other fantasy games and or books I've seen.  The peasants don’t get the benefit of doubt and should not when it comes to DTs.  If we can rise through the ranks, then other peasants will point at us and yell that we eat fat while they eat lean.  Consider how dull would a Marxist utopia be to role play in?  (Shudders)

I think most of these talks complaining about high level characters getting special favors are silly.  Of course they do, they likely should and until we catch up we are jealous or I am anyway but I think that’s as it should be.  In a perfect world we would all have a DM watching us.  But that’s never going to be possible.  

Sometimes DMs will have to make a judgment call on something and we may not agree with it.  Oh well it’s not our call to make.  

If you like to think in a role playing manner, assume the DMs are minor gods. What I recall from mythology was that the gods are capricious and its best for mortals to give them their due and stay out of their way.  

It’s the fact that there is permadeath, other players and real gods (DMs) who make decision that makes me enjoy playing in a PW and in this one in particular. Will they make the same call I would all the time?  Of course not and if they did it might be as if I was the DM for my own characters then it would feel like playing the single player game.  Blast I died hmm….. reloads.

[Desicardo]

My two cents worth (1.5 after taxes):

  First, let me say that I have been employed in management by a small mom and pop company and then later in a rather large corporation.  In both instances we had an employee handbook that layed out the company rules and expectations for all employees.  In the small company, that handbook was seen as a general guideline as to how employees were to be treated and what they could expect from management.  Often the lines were blurred and rules bent by everyone from floor managers up to VP's because we were more like family than employees and being close has it's privelages.  We did for each other and for the line employees and the company flourished and grew for a good while.  As the company grew, the feeling of family faded, people took advantage of the lack of adherance to the guidelines and before long, people were talking lawsuits for favoratism and discrimination and the company was forced to reapply the employee handbook in a more defined sense.

   Jump ahead a few years and I am now in management in a much larger company.  The employee handbook is the law of the land and is followed to the letter by all from the tall to the small without exception.  Employees are written up and policy followed up to dismissal for repeat offenses.  Is everyone happy?  No, there are occasional wrongful dismissal suits and disdain for the rules, but it is by and large, a fair system, not perfect by any means, but fair.

   Ok, what is the point?  The point being that we have rules in place on the server governing disputes, appeals, submissions, behaviour, and decorum that all are expected to follow.  This ain't no mom and pop shop here.  As NWN servers go, this is a rather extensive system that is set up.  Although we do still feel like family here in a lot of ways, fact remains, that server rules are server rules.  If exceptions are made and petitions granted for everyone regardless of merit, it is my experience that in the long run, it opens things up to widespread abuse and misuse.  Is there favoratism here?  Likely.  Does it have great impact on the server?  Not really.  Why?  Because of the strict adherance to the rules, processes, protocol that L and the DM team have maintained.  Does everyone like the rules?  No way!  Are they necessary for a server this size?  Absolutely.  

   I don't think anyone that plays here enjoys getting a DT or worse yet, having a character permed.  But it is part of the process by which we all get better.  We become better players, better at R/P, and better judges of our own limitations and character faults.  I also don't think anyone here enjoys jumping through hoops in the grievance and appeal process to solve an issue in which they feel they were wronged.  It would be nice if we could just trust people to be honest and fair in their requests and automatically grant any and all to the glee of the players.  But how long would that really last before the system becomes abused and the things that players work so hard for become cheapened.  I for one will take the DT and the hoops because in the long run, I know they will give a richer and valued experience to my time here.

    Lets face it, rules suck, but that is the nature of rules.  They restrict creativity, give us limitations and boundaries we wish were not there, and can be a general pain.  But, at the same time they give direction, focus, and vision to what this server is all about and where it is going.  L and his team have done what few others have done (in game or in real life I might add), taken a vision for what could be and given it substance.  That is no small achievement on a small server and one of epic porportions on one this size.  If that substance is to continue to grow and evolve, it will have to do so by continued diligence to the rules that it is based on.

   That said, it is by no means a perfect system.  If it were, the grievance and appeal section would be obsolete.  There is always room for improvement.  10 years from now when we are playing Layo V6.9 with 12,000 areas and 20 continents (don't faint L), there will still be things that can be improved and things that will need to be fixed.  But we need to keep in mind that this is a voluntary server.  People that run it have lives outside of the game and one persons grievance is not a DM mandate to drop all things in life to fix the issue.  Some things will be granted, others not and the 30,000+ players will still have to live with those decisions.  The one constant will be basic governing rules that form the core of what the server is about.  As long as those rules are applied fairly and consistantly across the board, players will find the experience rich and rewarding.  Though I am quite sure the quarterly rants will still be there to deal with too.

   Finally, we as players need to keep in mind that DM's are people too, and as such are subject to things such as bad days, mistakes, emotions, and opinions, any one of which can lead to conflict and disagreement.  Each and every one of the DM's have their own personalities, thoughts, and vision that impact their interacton with the player base.  As player characters, they have also been on the other side of the coin for countless hours and know the effect that a DM can have on player perceptions both for the positive and for the negative.  While they have powers to impact players gameplay to a large extent, they are not all knowing or all seeing of what is going on beyond the screen in players minds.  I can only imagine their perspective as many times I have sat back and watched someone do something, shaking my head and asking "what were they thinking?"  My point is that while they are the shadowy big brother watching over the game and occasionally stirring things up a bit, the only one that can make a player have a good time is that player him or herself.  All the ingredients are there for a rich experience, but it is up to the individual player as to what they do with them.  If you want to take the experience and walk away with a foul taste, it is certainly possible.  But for those with the desire to find the goodness, the richness, and the fun to be had here, you don't have to look too hard.  The more you give the more you get.

[Chongo]

Good thoughts Des.

[Polak76]

You know I can't really be bothered reading everyone's responses as it took me forever to read White wolfs.  I'm with Idii though, wish he used more paragraphs as I think i read the same sentence thrice.

Anyway if anyone here thinks so deeply about a computer game I reckon theyre got rocks for brains.  Yeah I can agree with a few minor points he raised but overall he takes things so damn seriously I question what he does in life.

Overall I don't think this post needs any attention at all.  Should have just deleted it form the word go.  Whats this crap about consumers and manufactueres..etc?  Poor metaphors of a feeble mind i rekon.

Anyway I've been fairly blunt.  I think he's made me irrate for wasting so much reading it.  I should have stopped reading after the first sentence.  

Cheers,
Polak76

[Lilswanwillow]

well, for the sake of saying it


I like it here, I hope I don't screw up like that, and go all freaky... I'll just be a hyperactive elfie, sound good? and you guys keep on ignoring people that are dumb like that, and everything will turn out right.

Its sad how they try to ruin the fun for us all