EVERYONE DISCUSS!

[OneST8]

This thread is for the constructive discussion of White Wolf's EVERYONE READ! announcement.

(Edit: yes yes I called him Dark Wolf as a typo, perhaps because I fail to see any good in his persona; I subconsiously associated him with "Dark Side" rather than "Light Side". Correction made.)

[OneST8]

Speaking on behalf of myself and not as a Layonara Staff Member....

I'm not a customer. You're not a customer. None of us *pays* Leanthar to play here (donations have nothing to do with the purchasing or transacting of goods or services; they are donations after all).

The final note I want to make...

And it's time to remove myself from the Layonara scene once and for all.

Are you sure you can do that? I mean like you can't seem to stop yourself from creating account after account trying to prove something though I'm not exactly sure what it is you're trying to prove. It's all too wishy-washy and shifty-eyed for me to accept as a valid basis for argument.

[Honora]

I was banned some time ago by Leanthar, but I returned twice.

So, you broke the rules, twice more. Very mature. Congrats.

You think a first level character who gets crash-killed by a goblin and has the poor luck of loosing a soul strand will get reimbursed?

First level characters do not lose soul strands.

In this circumstance Layonara is a retailer, Bioware is the manufacturer, and the player community is the customer base.

Dan Scott cannot, by Bioware law, make any money off the server. Layonara is by your definition a consumer of Bioware’s as well. No one is getting paid; it is entirely volunteer staff.

These people come to your server and play here, allowing you the chance...the PRIVILEDGE to create your world.

Privilege? Really? Please create a world for us and then come back and tell us what a privilege it was. Be sure to mention how glad you were to stay up hours on hours every night making zones, writing backstories, and creating pantheons.

You are here to serve the players, they are not here to serve you, and you all need to take a moment to accept that. I was having a conversation with a player that I will not name and this player told me that Layonara is the GMs' sandbox and you need to play nice with their toys.

No one is here to “serve” anyone. This is not Worlds of Warcraft. This is not EQ. This is a family of people bringing something to life…as a team.

I'm writing this to voice a common opinion that needs to be voiced.

How nice of you to speak for all of us.

And it really doesn't surprise me to see who was added to the GM roster recently. Two of those people I have interacted with extensively, and I have to say: Bravo! You two are certainly cut out for Layonara GM-ship. They could have picked anyone more like themselves. I'm sure you'll add a great deal to the material and malcontent of the server.

Regardless of your personal interactions, people are chosen based on the contributions they make. What contributions have you made, or did you make before you broke a rule of the server so severely that you got banned in one shot? Did you write? Did you roleplay in such a way as to set yourself apart? Did you volunteer for anything? Or did you get reprimanded or spoken to for flouting the decisions made to keep this server’s reputation as high as it’s been?

It's why Layonara is in a steady decline, it's why you have crooked politics and favoritism, and it's why I "hopped" my ban and came back twice, and ultimately it'ss why I'm writing this.

So if I’m reading this correctly, you hopped your ban...twice…so you could take more abuse in the hands of crooked GMs on a declining server. Perhaps that was not the best choice?

I am also not bitter about my banning in the least, it was the direct result of a decision I made, and I paid the price for it

I would beg to differ, sir. I think your entire post was reeking of bitters. And if you are not bitter, and accepting of the responsibility of your decision, why did you come back? Would it not have been more reasonable to find a less crooked, less declining server? There is one out there that caters to powerlevelers with more flexible rules, perhaps you should shop around a bit.


Very melodramatic. I’m sure you’re quite pleased with yourself, but I’m sorry to tell you that your post is…well…ineffectual. You did not come across as a beaten-down victim of The Man, but rather an angry rules-breaker who has NO respect for the community, and certainly no respect for the team.

As a member of the team, I can only say, don’t let the door bruise your backside as you swagger out.

[Pseudonym]

*wishing he was as eloquent as Honora . . .* yeah, ditto

[Weeblie]

And I was asked by someone to mention this, the way they are verifying that White Wolf is the same as Darkchild is by reading the Tells I have sent to other players and the Tells they have sent to me. So, in case any of you didn’t know; yes, they can and will read the Tell logs. So be careful, Big Brother is watching you!

Hehe... No, they can't. Fire up a NWN server and you'll see that tells aren't logged.

Besides, if the DMs were reading everything that's written... Oh, dear... Only thing I can say is: Poor DMs.

(I read my own chat logs from time to time and even that is far, far too much!)

[LordCove]

*sighs, shaking his head, and points to Honora's post with a thumbs up*

[IDii]

Oh, sometimes I just love the Internet.
Wish people used more paragraphs when they write these sad stories about being banned. I mean it's all fun to read but kinda makes my poor eyes struggle with it.

I honestly expected to see this post soon. Since I saw your character White Wolf logged in game it was pretty obvious that others would notice that too and you'd just end up being banned again for creating an obvious character to start your second/third journey through Layonara with. I know some people actually put effort into the whole secrecy thing and it took me a while to realise who it was. So I don't think it's a case of reading people's minds (tells) in this case. You know it might just be someone you sent a tell to actually forwarded that to the GM's because they about had enough of you?

Anyway...
Did no one seriously ever tell you that Leanthar or any of the GM's aren't actually being paid anything and it's all volunteer work? That sadly seems to be what the whole post is based on.

But as you requested:

Save it, I want people here to read. Don't respond. I won't be here to continue this discussion anyway.

I don't think I'll bother responding to the other things you said. Waste of mine and everyone else's time. And people should have their own opinions of things anwyay. I'm sure they would leave if they were extremely unhappy with the world and how things were.

Good luck in life, hopefully you'll get over Layonara soon and all that.

[AbnerMojo]

Uhm, what the hell, might as well.

I know a lot of people are gonna say I'm crazy here. But just because you never actively engage in, or contribute to favortism, does not mean it is not happening. And, I'm not saying it is, I'm am saying is it is incredibly easy to believe regardless of what one factually knows for people to assume and feel there is favoritism. I'm sorry guys, but you shoot yourselves in the foot with this one just by nature of the situation. You have a very well established community, a lot of long time friends, some are players, some are DM's, some are both....

And lets be honest, some of the long time players really need to develop better people skills. And not take for granted that everyone may not know everything Layonara.

I'll give you an example, my first time logging into the server to play my character, I was threatened in character, and out of with 'false' authoritive tells. What do I mean by 'false', well, lets just say some old time players here tend to think they can just decide to wear the old DM hat when talking to new players, and try to have authority they in no way have. And thats about all I'm going to say on that.

So do I think the guy was right? No. Do I think there is some creadence to what he said, uhm, yeah sure. But, it is sadly all something that is too personally linked to a perspective to ever sort out. Just my opinion there though.

[cbnicholson]

I didn't know Kiva very well, but what little I did perceive of his personality was of someone who calls them as he sees them. Does that mean there's a problem with favoritism on Layo?  Not necessarily, it is in the end, the opinion of one person who was banned.  However; the technical points he speaks of intrique me, but as I have zero experience with scripting or any of the other mechanical issues in NWN, I'll leave it to others to discuss the validity of his points.  Do they merit discussion?   As Honnora eloquently put it.. his post is full of bitters.  I'd like to think that most of us who play here are mature adults with the ability to know what is right and wrong in regards to clearly posted rules.  From what I've seen, those who break the rules here, know it and usually accept the punishment and are embarrassed enough to not come back or come back with a better understanding of why.   Further, I think it takes true courage to leave  Kiva's post locked and allow discussion of it in an open manner so I thank the team for allowing this.      
  That willingness to be transparent is definately one of the server's strengths and it goes a long way to solving what we call in IT the problem between the keyboard and chair - which is - all of us are human beings with all the faults included.  Let's try to remember that a bit more.  

[Filatus]

Sheez, I was glad to see him go the first time.

And now hearing his absolutely ridiculous claims about L having to 'serve' types like him??

Darkchild/White Wolf, whatever, do us all a favour and grab a needle and pop that sick little fantasyworld you're living in.

Now, you made one good point, it's the community that makes a great server. Well newsflash, the gm's are as much a part of the community as the players. I have no idea where you get that "us and them" idea from.

Now I'm going to tell you, Darkchild, something and I know you'll read it despite what you said about not returning (you returned twice despite being banned, as if you can resist reading this post). I always considered you a leech from the moment you started, the type that just takes and never gives. Making ridiculous claims about your character and just taking your personal enjoyment from Layo without constructively giving something back.

Please don't come back.

[Dorganath]

If anyone has any direct questions regarding anything in the post by White Wolf/Kiva, I will be happy to answer them. I'm sure the rest of the GM Team is willing to do the same.
  I don't do reprisals. I never have, and I don't plan to start, so don't be apprehensive to ask difficult questions or even give negative feedback. Just keep it constructive.

[Weeblie]

AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006  3:43 PM

I'll give you an example, my first time logging into the server to play my character, I was threatened in character, and out of with 'false' authoritive tells. What do I mean by 'false', well, lets just say some old time players here tend to think they can just decide to wear the old DM hat when talking to new players, and try to have authority they in no way have. And thats about all I'm going to say on that.

Those situations are best handled with the player directly, and if that doesn't work, send a PM to Leanthar.

[KageKeeper]

I again have to point to Honora's post and say. "Spot on!"

You stated very well what was in my head and I couldn't agree more.

Whitewolf, seriouly, just..leave. Layonara isn't for you. That's ok. It IS for many of us.

We are adults. We are capable of making our own decisions. We don't need a poor, misguided soul like yourself to hold our hands and protect us from the big, bad, mean bogey-man.

Don't go away mad, just...go away.

~KK

[hawklen]

Well, just a few words. There is some favortism. and some valid points he makes. Personally, I try to stay out of stuff like this, ignore it and try to have as much fun as I can. But there will be some people out there  As everyone is human, there will be no absolutly fair system. Some will favor people, and some will be harsh towards others they dont particularly like. Its a human thing. Anyways, enough rambling from me, I really need coffee...mmmm..coffee  EDIT: I am mad at  imaginary actions I imaginaraly imagined him imaginaly doing. And at the point I will have an imaginary hissy fit and imagine  imaginly exploding to satisfy my imagination.

[Faldred]

EVERYONE DISCUSS!

Actually, I'd rather not.  It seems like just another rehashing of the same stuff that comes up every couple of months.  What criticisms were valid probably still are, for the most part, and what weren't still aren't.  But the attitude displayed by the original posters usually prohibit any kind of constructive discussion anyway, and this seems to be no exception.

[Honora]

You know, something good has come of this. Really good.   We sometimes forget how much we can get wrapped up in this game. It's like a real world to us; we talk about our characters first person, we brag about their accomplishments, and we often use "I" or "me" instead of "Michaelis" or "Kyoro".  But, as it has been said so many times before, it is just a game. And Kiva's post demonstrates to us what happens if we forget that. There has been much said about gaming addiction, for example here. And someone who a) comes back twice after banning while b) begging to get his orginal character reinstated and c) also (as a "different person") begs to get his OTHER banned character reinstated to play....Kiva has a problem.
  I see this as an opportunity. Let's bring up those issues that the poll OneSt8 posted; if you think that there are problems, say so. It's there for that. And let's look at our own playing styles, and decide if we're so into this world that we would be in danger of losing the perspective that Kiva has already apparently lost. His is a cautionary tale, and one that can help us refresh our own separation of fantasy from reality.

[ItalianDDog]

I really hate to discuss things like this... because it is JUST a game as Honora has stated.  I just want to say a few quick things reference his post:  - Is there favoritism? Certainly.  It's everywhere, not just Layonara. Maybe if he played by the rules etc.. eventually he would have been favored too.  For the most part, the favored ones have put in the work to deserve it.    -There are certain Gm/s ... well one inparticular that does belittle others with his posts/general attitude towards players. Does this bother me? Not at all. Does he get the job done? For free might I add??? YES! Will anyone that has to do with a virtual video game community really have this kind of effect on a mature person? I like to hope not.... but by whitewolf's or whatever name's well written yet immature post he seems intelligent enough to know better...>oops< Well he should have anyway.   -One final quick thing that he was 300% right about. EdtheKet is by far one of the greatest assets to Layonara. His demeanor and attitude towards others is always pleasant and never overly authoratative.   p.s.  Thanks for the job you guys do. All of you.. even the ones that show favoritism.. and the ones that are not the 'nicest' ... After all...   We Are All HUMAN.      Lawrence

[LynnJuniper]

Faldred - 12/11/2006  12:33 PM

EVERYONE DISCUSS!

Actually, I'd rather not.  It seems like just another rehashing of the same stuff that comes up every couple of months.  What criticisms were valid probably still are, for the most part, and what weren't still aren't.  But the attitude displayed by the original posters usually prohibit any kind of constructive discussion anyway, and this seems to be no exception.

Agreed. I blame the Full Moon dude.

[merlin34baseball]

Just link this/his thread to the Jimmny Cricket/Equinox one and call it a day...

Some people just dont get it... its a game.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13005&posts=44&start=1

[Tanman]

This thread is for the constructive discussion of White Wolf's EVERYONE READ! announcement.

Hate to break it to you OneSt8.  I think Honora pretty much summed up the discussion right at the top.
-He broke his server ban twice and returned.
-His post, although attempts to makes to make points is nothing more than accusations. He hasn't got his facts straight. (ie when DTs are taken, and when he makes a claim that the  server logs tells).

There is a point that he alludes to . . .but I think that is already been touched upon already in the who thread about how "staff treat players" thread.

Oh and finally. . .what merln34baseball said. I think in 2-5 years from now, we will still look upon this post and say "what was this guy thinking?"