Metagaming or not metagaming

[Hellblazer]

First of, I want to say that this is not a flame at anyone but more like a person, player, guild leader, with some little fear, for the friends he has.
  I have just been told, after logging back from a movie, that one of my members and friend has been talked to by a dm for being with players that are lower leveled than she is even though they had a rp reason for beign together.
  Now here is the thing.
  As much as you are trying to tell us not to metagame, by looking at the char infocard and floating text. You are also telling us to metagame by making sure we are not taking character that is from a to low level from us.
  This poses a lot of problems with RP and also breaking the non metagaming attitude that you want us to adopt.
  In a rp sence from the guild stand point of view:
  The rules state that only the four founding members with the leader must be at the lowest level 6 and the leader a level 12. After that there is nothing that mention what level a char should be to join a guild. So either with that, you will be preventing the low level player of getting a good time within a guild, Or you are saying that the high levels player can not be part of guild, in fear of being cought rping and helping a fellow guild member with their tasks.
  More than that, you are also saying that the guild will not be able to recruit people or go helping those in need of help, weither it be getting them back to their grave or such other things, without actualy be metagaming, for risking of  being associated with lower level characters
  Secondly on the general rp stand point:
  A true friendship, for characters, will not be only made from standing infront of the bank and talking for hours on end. Friendships are found through hardships and time spent together doig things together.
   Now with this, non-metagaming, no one would be able to know what level a char is and in such is not prevented from partying with them and rping and basicaly just doing stuff. but with the metagaming, you are saying that high and low level characters can not be assiociated together, and forming true rp friendships.
  This is sending a mix message to the community, as you are, yourselves, asking the Players to metagame, while on the other hand you are asking them not to metagame.
  also there is an other point that was brought to my attention, that makes me think there is a lack of communication in between the gms themselves.  As from what i have been told, one gm stated something and an other the oposite. An other way of putting it. The right hand does'nt know what the left had is doing.
  I just feal that it is not only, unfair to the players to be prevented to associated themselves with their players friends, but also it is starting to be confusing, trying to folow the flow of what is being said by one gm and then negated by the other.
  with all respect!
  Rain!
  P.s I spend sometime to write this up so it does not sound like I am flaming, so please do not post flames in reply.

[SteveJW]

I understand the reason for not wanting a big difference in character levels...you don't want to have the 'powerlevelers' getting easy xp. And I'm not saying that a high level PC should be bringing level 1 players to say...Dregar...but I don't think it is in the interest of the server to simply exclude lower level PCs (by that I mean those who are around 10th level) from the occasional adventure with a higher level PC.

This could leave the newer player with a bad impression of the server and cause the player base to dwindle. That is definitley not in the interest of the server.

This isn't intended to flame or advocate 'powerleveling' and I hope we can disagree with the staff without the fear of reprisal...but it has been my experience in the past that I have partied with lower level players simply because we were going to the same place and and we RPd a reason to be together. Namely we are going for the same resources and would mutually benefit for such a venture.

[Hellblazer]

I have a proposition to make about the powerlevelers.
  Instead of penalizing the majority by preventing them to associate with higher levels chars, penalize the powerlevelers themselves, by either a drop of xp and gold or taking out their possibilities for cdq, ecdq, and such.
  Like this, you go straight to those who causes the problem and you dont penalize those who are following the spirit of the server.

[DMOE]

Define powerleveler.
  At one time we had many GMT DM's....I could make on average 5 quests a week with Ireth. As such she was lvl about every 2 weeks.
  If you just saw her server status week after week jumping lvl like that I'm sure you would have assumed I was power leveling when in fact I had got lucky with quests and was RPing my butt off.

[Hellblazer]

I would define a powerleveler as someone going on killing things repetidly every day gaining levels after levels in a very short time. Like going from 1 to 14 in a few weeks instead of months.
   Someone who passes more time fighting than rping or even crafting. Going from one party to an other, after a trip is done with one. Someone who would be in a party but stay invisible all the time only buffing out people, even though this has a rp background to it, it passes the back ground if it is done every time.  Basicaly someone who would level up at a extremly faster pace than the majority of the server.

[SteveJW]

DMOE wrote:

"At one time we had many GMT DM's....I could make on average 5 quests a week with Ireth.  As such she was lvl about every 2 weeks.

If you just saw her server status week after week jumping lvl like that I'm sure you would have assumed I was power leveling when in fact I had got lucky with quests and was RPing my butt off."

You were getting involved with quests and plot. Some of us aren't so lucky. I for one... couldn't make a lot of the quests because of time zones...RL...etc. You were fine I would think.

A 'powerleveller' doesn't get involved with the quests or the plot. Doesn't get involved with RP...just in there to hack and slash their way to high level. Which is hard to do on this server in my opinion.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Powerlevelers lose interest in the server within three months, typically, regardless of whether they've make level fifteen in those three months or not.

I'm glad to just stick it out with my low-to-mid-level characters, and play how I like to. With my playstyle (that is, RP harder the more XP I'm getting) I almost never find myself in situations where I feel I'm getting unjustified XP or loot, regardless of who I'm travelling with. Pyyran was discovering Dregar at level 7... Now Grok's munching Mariliths at the same level (well, he has once, on Rilara). I have always adventured with characters of a higher level... One of the few things all of my PCs have in common is the love of a challenge, and proper challenges are rarely found (in large groups, at least) in places you wouldn't be totally out of your depth alone.

That said, I simply don't play at the right times to make a "regular" or "daily" habit of the really tough trips. I never have, and I doubt I will. It's not about the XP for me... If it were, I'd just pick out a cleric and a fighter who were on constantly, and go on a slaughtering spree. It's about the RP.

If it's not about the RP... Well, why would they be here?

I say again. The powerlevellers grow tired of Layo after a few months... Stick it out, make real friends, and play to your heart's content. The abusers will leave on their own.

Restrictions on travelling with higher levels are certainly reasonable, but they're (within reason) flexible, too. If you're RPing well enough to support, say, a level eight character going with a few level fourteens to Saudiria on a trip to the temple of Az'atta (or whatever's there), then a passing DM I wouldn't think would have a problem. Dragging that same level eight around to strip-mine the length of Dregar is more than a little bit harder to support.

If you're significantly lower level than the group you're with, you'd better be pretty vital. For example, being the only one who can pick locks, or the one to find that pesky Beholder's Eyestalk.

Likewise, if you're higher level, there'd better be some reason for you to have that weakling along. What, are you trying to get him killed?

[DMOE]

My point was that often you only have server status to go off to see how other characters are leveling so how do you know if they are a power leveler or just lucky with quests?
  Of course the DM's do their best to spot and talk to 'power levelers' but generally a bit of common sense as to higher and lower lvls traveling together goes a long way to helping them.

[Hellblazer]

The question you should ask your self is this. Why should the majority of the people here on the server pay, be restricted, for those who can not follow common sence in regard of gaining levels in so little time?
  Put yourself into this position.  Your are told not to metagame, but at the same time, to follow the rules, you have no choice of metagaming.  Where is the logic in that?
  And lastly to answer your question.  As I have recently learned there is a little thingy called display,in your lore character page. With this and a little time, you can easily identify how fast someone is leveling, it is almost a day to day thing with that options.  And again, like Kyle stated, when its a gm quest, you are out of the loop as most gm quest are rped based coupled with action.
  Comone sence is a fine thing, I wont deny that. But the same comon sence is actualy going against what you have been told not to do. Metagaming.
  The comon sence is asking yourself:
   am I going against the spirit of the server, with the speed I am leveling? am I missing out on good rp opportunity and a second purpose for my characther in crafting, if I am always going around fighting? Does my fast leveling actualy brings a downside to the other players that are on this server?
  As a community, you have to think of the others too.  But those who are leveling to fast, do not think of the others. Their actions, brings the team in such a position, that they have to enforce restrictions on the whole community, making them, in the same process, go against an other thing that this community vouch for so dearly, no metagaming.
  Put yourslef into the shoe of someone who has a friend that comes on to this server, creat a new char, but because it is so low level compared to his friend that was already on the server for a while, can not team up with them. (ie Rain -> Elohanna, Rain -> Omer I actualy waited til they were a comfortable level enought before going out on trips with them)
  You can say, you just have to create an new char, but think of that for a second. Creating a new char, just to be able to play with your friend, means that you are going to give the team more work in the long run. A team that has already a lot of work.
  So tell me, which is more fair for the community. Restrict the whole community for the deeds of a few, or restrict the few so the community does not feel the burdain of the actions of the few?

[DMOE]

Erm.......I don't think I like the idea of other people 'checking' to see how fast people are leveling.
  And yes..if on a GM quest you are out of the loop but how would you know if I had leveled off a quest or bashing from Lore?
  And if your only going out occasionally with higher levels then how are you restricted?
  If you are making regular trips with a higher level then aren't you becoming what your complaining about?

[Weeblie]

I know now why I start to hate the word "RP". It's so losely defined and varies from one person to another that it hasn't really got any meaning. Words is a form of communication. A loosely defined word isn't doing what's its intended to do and... erh... wait a second... this topic was about something else, wasn't it?

Anyway! Common sense is indeed the key here. Generally, if the DM see that one has a stronger reason to mix between high level and low level people than to simply gather CNR or gold, they tend not to bother one very much. Or maybe give one a supporting "Great!" tell. Quite often, though, it tends to be "RP excuses" rather than "RP reasons" (disclimer: this is how I feel is the working of the RL world, and is definitely not a comment on how it is here nor related to this particular event)...

If there are some DM decisions/comments you don't agree with, try to solve it with that particular DM first and then send a PM to Leanthar. I think that's the standard procedure on this matters!

[Hellblazer]

DMOE - 11/17/2006  3:19 AM  
  Erm.......I don't think I like the idea of other people 'checking' to see how fast people are leveling.
  And yes..if on a GM quest you are out of the loop but how would you know if I had leveled off a quest or bashing from Lore?
 

 If your not part of the team, then it is not your job to go to someone, hey stop powerleveling.  It is the team to do so, but if you have a suspicion someone is, point the team in the right direction. They will check the stats and act accordingly.  
 

DMOE - 11/17/2006  3:19 AM
  And if your only going out occasionally with higher levels then how are you restricted?
  If you are making regular trips with a higher level then aren't you becoming what your complaining about?
 

 thats an easy answer, the main reason that got me to post here is, that one of the Angels, who is a high level, got slapped on the wrist, gently i might say, for being with her guild friends that had met with 3 others that were heading the same direction and for the same reason. Now that same person has a big gasp in her level and some other members of the guild.  Is it  fair for any of them to say, sorry you're part of the same team, but you can not ever do anything together?
  On the other hand, all of this come back to the name of this thread.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Use common sense regarding these matters and you will do fine.

 - No one will warn you for escorting a lower level friend back to his grave.

 - No one will warn you for interacting/RPing with your low level friends - whether this happens in towns, houses, wilderness, forest, etc.


The only reason for the rule of moderate levels between characters is that at some point high level characters dragged their lower level friends around Mistone/Dregar/Xantril to harvest xp, so that they could level up faster. Many times the players behind the characters know each other beforehand and already have high level characters on the server. One of them makes a new character and the other/others decide to help this poor fellow to gain some levels quickly. That is what we try to discourage and that is why we have the rule in place.

You can show lower level characters around, travel with them and generally interact with them all you want - the GM Team has never discouraged these things. What has been discouraged in the past is to lead low level characters to high level CNR, enabling them to harvest things they should not be able to. And, of course, the before mentioned xp runs.

If you think about it you know what is right and what is not. Use that common sense and you will be perfectly alright, really.

Harlas

[Hellblazer]

I do agree that, taking someone along for the soul purpose of power leveling is realy distasteful.  No one will dispute that. But the problem does'nt lay in the common sence of things, but in the fact that if you want ot use your common sence you have to metagame.
  Beside the first part of the post, where the player in question was talked to by a dm, was done, to my info, here on minstone. In which cases, and from what you had just said, had no ground for it. They met up on the road, going in the same direction for the same reasons. They decided, after talking, to team up. One is level 7, one is lvl 8, 2 are lvl 9, 2 lvl 14, one 15, and the player who got slapped still 20. Now the two level 9s,one of the level  14, the level 15 and the level 20 are in the same guild. Which constitue a good rp reason to go on trips together even for cnrs. The problem was that the level 7, 8 and one of the 14 are not in the guild, but were met on the road to their common destination and goal.
  Since, looking at the char infocard is metagaming, (the same way as going to someone: hey Salleron how are you? , if you never met him.) it would be as bad to do that and go, sorry we cant team up because of your level ( in any form you might say it, its still the same result) than going with them to get the cnrs.
  The point being, that the situation of the comon sence vs metagaming is not working out. Problem arises and people are getting talked to, even though from what was told here, should not have been.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

As for the metagaming there are plenty of ways to recognize a lower level character in game. His/her equipment, how he/she carries himself, how experienced a warrior he/she is in combat... plenty of ways for your character to make that judgement without calling it metagaming.

[Hellblazer]

Harlas Ravelkione - 11/17/2006  3:50 AM  how experienced a warrior he/she is in combat... .

 for that you would have to be partied with him, which could get you talked to.
  how he is acting, hard to say when you just met onthe road talked for a little bit. For myself I have never met the other level 14 to my knowledge, so I have no ground to base my assumption of how he carries himself could be an indication of what level he is.
  And would you go personaly, wait before we go, show me your inventory, Oh sorry, you sword tells me that i cant party with you..
  I know its pushing the how you would tell that, but the end result would still be the same.
  When you are on the road going some where, 5 in the same party,  and you meet someone, you always try to keep the chatter to a minimum to keep in mind that not all have the same time as you have or the same desire to lose time, when they might be pressed to fill out an order or any other reason. You quickly talk to see where each others group are doing, and then decide if you team up together.
  So we are again at the same point. To be sure to be withing the rules, you check out what the level of the person is. But all of that was caused by the few that decided one day to either powerlevel, or help others to power level.  Once again, its the majority of the community who has to bend in four, for the few that decided to go against the rule.
  I myself, have found myself in multyple occasion, looking at the info card of the member of the same party. To find out that, only one other in the party is not an effortless. Being the one that instigated the trip, and the others beign invited when I asked the other team mate: do you know anyone who is willing to go? Or being aborded: heard your going there, can I go? I know that I can not go, sorry you're not in our class mate.
  Even worse, you say ok come, first because you saw them in town for a monts or so, knowing that it doesnt take long to go from 1 to 6 or 7 with how the things are set up near minstone. So you say Yeah ok we can team up if its ok with the others. Only to find out that he is effortless. I have been looking at that a lot more lately because a few people I know where talked to from going places with people who were to low for them, even if they had a valid rp reason to do so. But then your stuck, if you act on it you're metagaming. If you dont act on it your going against teh rules.. You try to find a reason, but none comes along, cause the persone who plays that char, has been here longer than you are, so his char does not act like a new comer. The weapon he has does not seemed to be low level, because, being teh first time you talked to him, seing he is using a ordinary weapn that doesnt stand out, you dont ask him to show you waht he is using, for what ever reason you would be sking him to. So your stuck. You teamed up and there is no reason for you to void that group.
  Personaly, and I dont think I am the only one, I would rather see stricter results for those who are doing the powerleveling, than seing the community punished.  For someone who only hangs out with the same people, that are teh same levels they are, its no biggy.  But for those, Myself included, who have a wide range of people which I hang around with, some are low levels, some are High, this pauses a problem. Even more so, when it could affect the team work we have.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Those points you mentioned were not what I tried to say.

You right click her and see that she is effortless. That is metagaming, but we all do it from time to time. Now you OOC know that she is very much below your level. Now you can RP that telling from her equipment, the way she fights (and yes, a lvl 14 character is a very experienced warrior and will easily be able to see if a character is much less experienced in combat - perhaps you will not, but your character would) and the way she carries herself, meaning how she holds her weapon, how familiar she looks with her armour/shield/etc.

What I am giving you is a realistic way to RP this matter. Realistically your character will notice these things. In game you (as a person) cannot, but your character should be able to. So the right click and challenge rating is okay for you to use in this instance because it gives you an idea how to act (within the rules). Again, no one complains if you're simply interacting with your guild members, but if you take them on adventuring trips where you fight creatures that the lower levels would never be able to challenge without the high level characters in the group perhaps you shoulder consider taking them someplace else.

[DMOE]

Hellblazer - 11/17/2006  8:30 AM  thats an easy answer, the main reason that got me to post here is, that one of the Angels, who is a high level, got slapped on the wrist, gently i might say, for being with her guild friends that had met with 3 others that were heading the same direction and for the same reason. Now that same person has a big gasp in her level and some other members of the guild.  Is it  fair for any of them to say, sorry you're part of the same team, but you can not ever do anything together?
  On the other hand, all of this come back to the name of this thread.
 

 I doubt anyone is saying you can never do anything together but yes...regular trips to places that can only be reached due to the fact one of you is such a high level would be wrong and it is our job as players to ensure that doesn't happen.
  Ever considered the gentle slap on the wrist was just the team doing their job to make sure that doesn't happen?
  And so what if you have to metagame to keep to the server rules? It's hardly hard to find a good IC excuse and then fire off an OOC tell explaining why. I've had to do that with my high level character before.
  While I agree whole heartedly with 'immersion'...We do have rules and such and they need to be kept.

[Weeblie]

Server rules has to come before the wish of not metagaming.

The general policy for not having low level characters mixed with high level characters in the same group without a strong in-character reason (and, no, I don't think being in the same guild alone justifies that, as that would feel more like a way to bypass the rules than keeping in the "RP spirit") has higher priority.

"If there are some DM decisions/comments you don't agree with, try to solve it with that particular DM first and then send a PM to Leanthar."

If a DM says no, it is no. Otherwise, we will maybe end up with even more strict level difference rules (say, max level difference of 5 levels with no exceptions) which I think would be very sad.

[Hellblazer]

Weeblie - 11/17/2006  4:17 AM  (and, no, I don't think being in the same guild alone justifies that, as that would feel more like a way to bypass the rules than keeping in the "RP spirit")

 Just to be sure this is not mis-interpreted, what i meant there was that, them being teamed up on outings to gather materials for the guild would be the rp reason to go where they go, for the family, the guild. Which we rarely take someone, at a place we would feel would be to dangerous for him or her to be.
  And is it not also a server rule not to metagame? or am I just delusional here    
  To haras, i thank you for clarifying what you wanted to say, I can understand what you are trying to say on how to apply the ooc information that you optained in a rp fashion.
  I was not there so I can not go to the dm and talk with him/her about it, but it got many or my members angry or bummed enough that I decided to post. Even more so, from my understanding, their teaming up together was a trivial reason for what there were doing, concidering the what they where doing and location.
  This brought me to think, like I posted, that the restriction of the levels, could bring a strain to any guild or clan or assiociation here on Layo, to the simple fact that, in the long run, most of the old members of the guild will be high leveled, and there will be new comers joining the guild. Now, for them to act as a team, as a family ( in the angels case ) it would mean that all must interact in everyday life things together, helping each other what ever the reason is. This is how we are, but that restriction would potentialy put a strain on it.
  Not saying that we dont understand the reason why they are there, but the fact that already one of our high level members was talked to, weither it be as a prevention, or to simply say she was wrong in being in the party with them, already shows a tendency that I personaly dont like. It being that there will be two or three class of people in the same guild, Low level, mid levels and high levels. Which means that we wont be able to have a full unity, no one is more important than an other and each must support one an other, what ever the task is.