PLEASE DELETE THREAD MR/MRS MODERATOR

[Germaine Lorn]

I have archived the material about the debate - this thread is now finished.

Thanks

Mary Blood Axe

[Zhofe]

I am .... very very sorry to see you go ...

I do not know what to say, except, have a good time with whatever you do. I know how it feels to leave this place. I hope that maybe you will come back sometime.

[Acacea]

Ack. *hides her face in her hands* This sucks. You could always not go, and avoid Hlint with Acacea, hey? Mary can just be like other people that are astonished at how it is in town, and just avoid it!

If you leave, I'll be branded with blame! Don't let that be on your conscience! Err. Well, maybe not.

I do understand (obviously), but if you go the server will just lose someone who could have helped improve that. The more people that act reasonably, the more it appears to make sense and maybe the more people pick up on it.

In theory. Technically this hasn't really worked out but there are still a few bugs in it. Hmm.

[teefal]

This is very sad.  zerpa, giddy, and me were just saying an hour or so ago that mary blood axe is one of our favorite characters.  Giddy was impressed with how nice you were earlier, and stayed in game longer just because of it.

I hope our ill-fated rescue among the spiders didn't contribute to your souring of layo land.

What can I say?  If it'll keep Mary around, I'll charge every weapon-wielding baddy in town with a pick axe... no exceptions!

[Gunther]

While I sympathize with your statement, I also tend to think that at a certain point (or level) even a monster class character would gain some acceptance and more tolerance.  Perhaps not ever as much as a human or dwarf, but nonetheless more acceptance.  If its brand new characters acting as such, then I couldnt agree more.  I just spend most of my time mining and smithing so I dont see this happening as much.

[Dezza]

What you have to take into account as well is that the Dragon has summoned these people here to help against Blood...it may not always be apparent why the dragon chose this particular giant or this drow or such but the idea is that we all contribute towards a greater goal.

To monster characters this takes a bit of getting used to depending on their bio and you could very much expect some unwelcome responses from them...sometimes!

Anyway I hope you stay I have seen some of your RP and playing style and you certainly fit in here...I hope you persevere and give it another go

[Rehevkor]

I don't know if this has any bearing or not, but I thought I'd mention it.

While playing Eleanor tonight I ran into the orc I believe you've been referring to (big guy, spiky armor, axe, etc). Within short order he was chasing a sea elf asking about his "spiky thing" (trident). He didn't seem hostile though... he was just interested in the unusual weapon. The sea elf, being totally unfamiliar with orcs, got a little frightened and jumped into the pond. The orc pulled up short, yelled "WATER!" and ran off. Apparently he's terrified of water.

He was getting pretty worked up running around, so Eleanor found a way to redirect his energy. She called him over and told him she had something he could play with outside and cast darkfire on his axe. He promptly ran out of town singing, and came back later battered but in a much better mood.

Later she went with him and Elebril to hunt brown bears in the high forest. Along the way he demonstrated what I thought was some good RP. We stopped at Elebril's house, and while Eleanor and the orc waited outside, he sat down, took out a book, and proclaimed that he was going to practice his reading. He got through "is", "it", "the", and "fungus" by the time Elebril returned. Later, in the high forest, it began to rain. The orc scrambled under a tree and remained there until Eleanor cast resist elements on him, assuring him that the spell would keep the rain off and protect him from lightning. After spending a little time with him, I realize he's a pretty interesting character.

Given the mechanics of NWN and the rules of this server, you (as a player) pretty much have to make a distinction between AI orcs and PC orcs, otherwise things just don't work. The way to RP it, I think, is to automatically react to the AI orcs as if they were hostile and attacking (they usually are, after all) but to react to PC orcs by noting something about them that's different. The most obvious I can think of is that an orc walking alone into Hlint will be relaxed (weapon out or not) rathering than charging and screaming bloody murder. Or, depending on how the player RPs the character, they might be nervous, wary of other people out of fear of being attacked (which seems justifiable). These kinds of attributes could clue another person in that maybe this orc isn't typical, and a little time should be taken to observe them before any action is taken. The person playing the orc can further support this by emoting to express their state of mind and physical bearing when entering Hlint within sight of other players.

The realm of possibilities with roleplaying are limitless, which is one of the main reasons NWN is still going strong in spite of being a fairly old game. Sometimes it helps to look at things through the eyes of the other character in order to understand how to respond to them.

Hope this helps put things into perspective for you

[Zhofe]

Some do not WANT to gain the trust of others. For instance, Barravelve hates all the surfacers.

And pretty much all the Drow too ...

and anything else from the underdark ...

Except pretty females. He liked them. He thinks they would fetch decent prices in the auctions in the underdark.

He does not really care for the surface, or it's laws, but will follow them if they benefit him. The laws of Hlint, if followed, make sure he is not killed in his sleep, so ...

[Acacea]

He is one of the extremely rare exceptions of the "I'm really just a sensitive guy that needs a hug" subrace rule, though. Hehe. Acacea met him and I think he's great.

I think he just meant that in most cases, they ARE trying to be accepted, but don't need to concern themselves with behavior because no one will react most of the time and they can't be hurt.

[Diamondedge]

If this is the case, that monster races (Giants, Orcs, Goblins, etc.) are running around, brandishing weapons and pushing people around, they ARE hiding behind the fact that nobody will do anything. I feel that a DM, if they were patrolling the server, etc, would have put a quick stop to the monster character being dumb and stuff by maybe having Garent arrest them or throw them out of town, etc. Or pummel them to smitherines.

The fact that none of this frightened the monster character shows metagame thinking, a terrible, terrible trait that leaves a bland, ugly taste in one's mouth. It is unfortunate that it happens, but those guilty likely do not read these forums anyways. What we have to realize is that it isn't IC at all for any of them to be acting this way because it's taking serious advantage of the server's rules and stuff. It's just bad Jujubes, man.

I really don't want to see you go, Germaine. *frowns* I'll miss Mary Blood Axe! She was fun and kicked major butt and stuff. And she was going to have a baby and there was this elaborate sub-plot to Turor's emotions centered around it and now it's a big empty hole that I'll have to fill with a certain yammerin' gnomeling. Which is torture unto itself.

Well, I'll miss you. I wish we could have RP'd a bunch more while you were here. *sigh*

[NEXUS7]

I am new to Layonara and play two PC’s both are Monsters “Spugly Fuglet” a Half-Giant and
Max an elf/Tifling. [What I have to say here is my personnel view only and has no
connection other than observations to the excellent way that Layonara is run.

[I except that your comments, which are just as valid as mine and are more aimed at
the players than there PC’s my not have what follows as there intent its my take on your words]

It was the very fact of being able to a mistrusted and in some cases discriminated
PC that pulled me into Layonara. With DnD I was feeling jaded with the standard PC
and wonted some thing to stretch my RP.

I feel that Hilet is a popular place for out cases because word has got out that it’s a
tolerant place, once the Dragon calls and you except you. Your on your own it would seem
right to seek out other out cast and congregate with others of your race. You seek to
keep your old traditions and culture wile trying to assimilate into the new host culture

Now for me this is where it gets interesting.
I live in London and we are having in some respect the same debater here.
We have in the UK Refuges from other counties who have been given asylum.
Now we find that some are repaying out good will with acts and words of hate.
Not hate to there home land but hate aimed us the main stream culture of England.

We find that there world views are such that they would remake our culture more to
there way of thinking and beliefs. They feel victimizes when we do not comply to there wishes
and in some cases commence acts that are abhorrent and treacherous.  

Now because of the acts of a small minority there grater minority of law abiding and good
citizens who where given asylum, the group as a hole are mistrusted and in some cases met
with down right hostility by the public.

Ok thaw the two things I’m talking about here seem worlds apart I for one
Can see a very small parallel with the way refuges (out costs/monsters) are seen inside
Layonara and the radicals who are inflicting horrors in the real world.

Calls that all Drow are evil and should be killed or removed, Notes around town, worried
talk of the giants taking over all seem to add to my view. Now we see talk that would paint all with one brush.

What this means I have as yet to work out but I know the way players
Reacted as humans beings with there pc,s “in game” situations will enlighten me into how we
may move for would in the real world.
I find this fascinating and in some regards and feel it would make an exhalent
starting point for PhD in the Humanities.

*Sorry for nay spelling mistakes im dyslexic

[Acacea]

There have been a lot of threads that try to compare these things, just look at all the drow ones. The point made every time is that these races ARE in fact *evil*. The majority by FAR is evil, the ones in Hlint are the minority. Even if there are a lot of them. *grins*  

Everyone will react to them differently- Acacea is *extremely* tolerant, because she thinks everyone is a little crazy anyway, and so as long as they're fun to be around, she doesn't really care. Most people complain that everyone is a little too tolerant, but it IS Hlint. Acacea met a tiefling with horns and fangs and glowing eyes and didn't even blink after the weird bunch of people she's seen there. However. The demon looking thing did not brandish weapons at her or threaten her, or...

There are a lot of subjects that branch out from this, and I think in this case he was more specific. Your examples don't really align, I think, because again, the "good" are the few, not the many. The tiny minority. Also, even in your example- if one of the people seeking asylum freaked out and ran around with a gun shooting randomly, I think everyone would be EXTREMELY freaked out and, at this point, god knows what would happen to him. If he wanted to be accepted, why would he be running around being so clearly UNacceptable?

In Hlint, not only will there be no "painting of one brush" in which ALL of the 'monster races' are cast out and hated for what one does, the ONE need not fear consequences, either. Hm...unless he decapitated someone in broad daylight in front of Garent, or something. That *might* do it.

Although, if a human man chased a human woman down the street screaming at her and waving his sword, I am almost positive there would be a lot of people stepping in before they either rescued her or discovered it was a game. It's kind of odd to think about it.

Edit: Somehow I read that and think "No one is going to have a clue what I'm talking about." Let me clarify without rambling on for an hour: I don't think anyone suggested that we paint all with one brush, to quote you- instead, if someone doesn't want to be "painted," they should not... I'm out of clever analogies for the day. "If you don't want to be painted, get off the canvas." Oi! How about "Some people are just asking to be painted." or something. Man. I haven't slept in 40 hours or something, leave me alone.

Second Edit for Topic straying reasons- Ahem. Don't go!  

[cappyra]

Here is my take.

I think you are an excellent role player Germaine.  Your character is quite unique which makes the world more interesting. Please consider however that while Layonara is a role playing server, and everyone should role play, not everyone is an experienced role player.  Layonara may actually be their first role playing experience.  

Hlint is a town of acceptance.  Long before Mary arrived Orcs (friendly of course) have walked the streets along with drow, ogres, half giants, goblins, tieflings and halfings.  So in your example...  you could have been the only one that saw the Orc as unusual.  With that being said you should react however you think your character would react.  Then role play it out.   If the Orc looks at you like your crazy...  and starts telling you that he can do what he wants... well it's because he can...  and has probably had drinks with Garent at the tavern.  Does this make sense?  He has already been accepted by the townsfolk... and then you run up to him. =)

Here is a good example that happened with Derrick.  Derrick is returning to Hlint from the Haven mines.  Up ahead he sees three ogres beside the road.  As a player I know that there are usually not supposed to be ogres in that area so I put my cursor over them and discover they are PCs.  Instead of just running by them because ethey are PCs..  I do what Derrick would do.  I hit my *voice command for attack pulled out my swords and ran at them.   They turned and said things like...  Wha?  Huh?  No kill...   Once Derrick gets closer he sees that something is a little different... basically because they are not clubbing him.  He stops short and we all stood around looking at each other.  Derrick is like er What?   Then the half giants in somewhat broken common tell Derrick they are having a pic-a-nic.   Then they all have a big laugh.  Derrick joins the pic-a-nic and shares his ale.

Ok now so in short.  You are a great role player.  I know I have experienced it.  You have a unique and fun character.  Instead of giving up in frustration, stick around and help others.  If a character isn't reacting the way you think they should...  send them a tell and make sure they understand you are role playing.

If you still decide to leave,  we will keep the light on for you when you return to the BEST server around!

[Locust]

I met Mary only once and there I enjoyed here input a lot. I’m a player with very little time available to be online and most of that time I try to find an opportunity to RP something since this gives me the reason to be “in the game”. On the other hand I’m very green when it comes to D&D and RP and I’m certain that Mary could have taught me many new things on this.

So .. yes .. I would have liked it to continue interacting with Mary (IC wise off course).

[LoganGrimnar]

i thank that all the "rare" evil classes need to be severly limited... maby aprove 1 a month. and the way you would chose is; a. the best submission and story, b. How long they have been here maby, c. How there RP is, d. how long they have been waiting in line to get an untrusted and uncommen PC class submitted. Oh and i also belive that not all of these classes are evil, like the goblins are mainly cn as well as the ogers and likly some of the giants, Drow for the most part are any of the 3 evil types, tiflings are not alwese evil, there just not prown to follow laws becouse of there heritage whice puts them in the shadows.

I also think that in the submission itslef it needs to be required that something be mentioned of the dragons summening of them. In many submissions, a few of my own included. These chars have nothing about the dragon, they have just walked into town one day for joly reasions unknown. Now we can asume that every char gose to the dragon, but if it is required in the submission then new players will know about it before going into the world. i dont know if there is somthing yet, but something should be added that says somthing along the lines of: When you start you are in a dream, and you are speeking to a dragon, dragon blablabla do this and that, blablabla help out and he chose you for a reasion or whatever it says. This way people can make there build ending up with that, not ending with  somthing like "and then i found my way t hlint, where i adventure is just begining" or whatever. Maby for older chars they can have it storyed around the dragon so they can play less then "good" chars or whatever teh dragon wouldent have summened. I belive the dragons summenes us to fight blood or somthing, so these chars that are out there make bloodwells or whatever are not people this all knowing dragon would have liked summened... or maby its not all knowing, idk. Anyway i cant explain it anymroe now, maby when i come of with better ways to word it ill repost.

[Vyris]

I hate to see people leave, but if you do I hope you find another server that offers you more of what you expect.


Vyris

[teefal]

I like what Rehevkor said about using game mechanics to infer visual things that aren't obvious from the visuals and text.

If I see someone is transparent, I say, "You don't look so good" and we begin talking about where their grave is.

If I see someone is "badly wounded", I use a potion on them, because I imagine I see bleeding and wounds that aren't really there.

If I see that a monster is a PC, I infer that I notice something about them that sets them apart from NPC monsters.  They have that "dragon summonee" look about them, or as Rehevkor said, they're not the usual freak job.

I did this with the orc in question .. I started suspicious, then saw another player talk to him, so relaxed.  I later saw him carrying on, but saw something non-threatening about the way he was doing it.

Roleplaying's about more than the obvious reactions.  There's also another big point no one's mentioning here too ... some might not act because they're *afraid* to, IC.   Personally, the more I learn about the world, the less I'm willing to attack ANYTHING.   In a place where 20 feet off the road can get a whole party killed, isn't it fitting that some of us are less brash than others?

[PsychicToaster]

With both a Paladin and a half-giant I have been trying to reconcile this issue.  The meta-gaming impulse says that any of the "evil races" are the good members of it since evil is restricted on Layonara.  The other part that kicks in is "what would I do about it?"  I could approach in a huff and demand a monster race leave, but they could just say no and go about their business ignoring me since they know it will never come to blows (even if it did their grave would be 20 yards away).  On the flip side, I have seen some excellent fearful reactions to my half-giant, and in response he has been overly nice.  However, he's not being nice to win favor, he's just too dumb to be selfish or cruel.  In his mind, some things are good and some things are bad, and that's just the way it is.  The other part is, it would be tedious to play that fearful/suspicious/hostile reaction to every hated race considering how prevalent they are.  It was one of those things that IC my characters have looked around and saw that no one else minded, and said "when in rome. . ." and accepted them too.  

I would like to point out that I do not feel their commonality is the problem.  DnD allows us the opportunity to role play an astounding variety of characters, and I don't feel people should be handcuffed into "common" races just because the rulebook states that they are common.  Players are playing the heroes of these societies, not their average population.  So player race/class ratios don't need to match regional demographics at all, nor do they need to they need to fit cookie cutter molds of favored race/class.  On the flip side, players also have the option of playing the dwarven fighter or halfling rogue if they so wish.  

The problem, as I see it, is that because PvP is disallowed we will have to accept that we can't enforce the law of the land on PCs in character.  Instead, waving weapons around and behaving aggressively in town should be reframed as abuse of the privilage granted by immunity to in character reprisal.  It'd be no different than casting a fireball within the town walls because you know no one will stop you.

[dfiremann]

When will it stop?  The good people leaving/banned/etc?!?!  I haven't even quested with you, but just from the delightful mischief in some of your posts, I mark you as a top shelf RP-er.  I agree there are some inconsistencies with drow and giants and orcs running all over town (one thing I have to give WoW (probably the only thing)), but why not leave it at that...an inconsistency and move on to enjoying the others in the game?

Too much to ask?

[lonnarin]

Layonara is not PVP.  

These "monsters" are other characters, and the ones in question are HALF-giants, HALF-ogres.  You cannot kill them on sight because they are half human unless you're an evil character who would continually commit acts of genocide... and we don't allow such characters play here.  Sure Klugger or Duur are half giant, but they're also half human... VERY apparant just by looking at them.  Even an orc or goblin is still a sentient being, and should be treated as such.  If you think that race alone dictates evil, then you are likely evil yourself.

repeat....

Layonara is not PVP

It is RP.  See something that looks nasty but isn't attacking you?  Try talking to it.  I've run out of fingers and toes to count on when my questing players automatically start attacking NPCs I've possessed rather than progress the plotline of my quests.  Is that monster saying "hello ders!" instead of biting your head off immediately, and retreating a little when you start shooting it, screaming "STOPS ITS STOPS ITS!"?  wow...  you'd be suprised how CE some of these players act.  So far I've had far too many "friendly" NPCs MURDERED by players...

for those that weren't listening the 1st two times...

Layonara is not PVP

I may sound a little stern in this post, but after seeing a fleeing Kenku begging for his life and running away, gunned down in the back, a peaceful were-bear slain outright while he was forraging berries, a goblin in a corner cowering for mercy and having his head chopped off... something had to be said.  Especially after a certain unnamed mage decided to crossbow bolt to death a Hlint kitten and immediately log off...

If you attack something that hasn't attacked you yet, then YOU are the monster.  If you walk up within range and it charges... then it's self defense.  The distinction isn't very hard to make.  See a monster not attacking you?  ask it why it's there.  Attack it on sight, just because?  Then you're no better than any volatile orc tribe or Blood spawn that's out there.

Think morality folks.  Look deep down inside and think if you're a Hero or villain.  Your race commonality doesn't dictate that, only your actions.