Points in Harloff

[Meizter]

Well time for a more in-depth comment on the post Harloff made as well as my own concerns. This should not be read as a “good old explode-and-leave” post, it is my thoughts on the subject and as such I have considered this carefully before posting. Please do not read this as an attack on anyone nor an attempt to discredit the work of anyone or any such things. I have a feeling I will be banned for this post, but I want to express my thoughts first, and should I be banned so be it.

First of all I will say that I have always respected Harloff both as a player and as a friend (yes I guess it is known to most that we know each other in RL) He has often made suggestions especially to how crafting could be improved and has a logic approach to things. Such outburst as this is for one who knows him a sign of a deep and thorough frustration. I recall when we began to play here, making the Sigurdson brothers, it was a great time. We would speak of how great things were, but alas as time passed and we saw how it in reality works frustrations came to us. Recently discussion of the world is mainly focused on issues that needs attention and I guess some know and to others it will come as a surprise, but the reason I left the team was not my limited RL time, but more that I could not agree with how things are and functions so as I wrote in my resignation letter “I cannot in good conscience be part of something I fundamentally disagree with” hence I returned to the state of player, but enough rambling about old times and why things have been done as they have.

In many aspects what the team and the players does here is incredible. I have often been immensely impressed by the work put forth. With that said I will proceed to my points of critique.

I agree with Harloff and although perhaps it could have been put in a nicer way, but it none the less holds truth. So let us try and look beyond that and instead take a look at the issues he raises.

Well classes I have already commented on earlier, and I do believe it should be made a vastly higher priority than for instance giving us flower to hand to each other. It is true as GhostWhoWalks stated that for instance skald update will affect very few people, and I could see this as a reason to down prioritize such update, but still I will say that I find classes to be of vital importance in this game. That a class isn’t working is perhaps also a reason why so few play it, who wants to play something that is basically useless. About adding “I understand the limitations of my class” to a submission is really not necessary I think as such lies implicit in applying for the class, however you will no where find the calculations on how DC’s are determined etc. for your feats, which should be fixed at least so people can stay clear of these non-working classes. But even if you know the limitations you should still be allowed to say “this is not working” and ask for it to be fixed, I see no reason why one should be content with something that is not functioning as intended.

Let’s be honest to ourselves and take a look at the summons. They are very different and some are better than others. I will simply ask this and you tell me why it is so. “Why are the majority of clerics worshippers of Lucinda and Vorax?”

I will pose a simple answer, their summons are better and their domains are better. Lucinda has some of the best domains and the golems are not to be trifled with. I will wager that 90% of the people here when planning a character think about how to get the best of it power-wise and I shall readily be the first to say that for me it goes as well, although I chose poorly when I chose the skald

I believe the bear Harloff mentions is summonable at level 17 and has a CR of 25 or there about. Now don’t say that such summon is reasonable, with such summon you only need to buff it and stand back and watch it kill while you harvest the XP. Basically I believe with such you can solo Dregar easily.

I do believe there is much secrecy in Layonara. I will put up examples I have used before when addressing more or less the same issue.

-   Gods: why aren’t people told of them, it is like having a cardinal at church having to call the pope to get an opinion on a matter or explain why something is a sin. Even high level clerics here do not know why things are as they are, and if I played a cleric I would find that immensely frustrating.
-   Krashin: This is a very recent thing but none the less I will bring it up. We have had a history and in depth description of Krashin lying for  perhaps 5 months, but people are not allowed to see it. Why not just throw it on LORE for all to see instead of waiting for a new handbook, we have a LORE-team after all.

ZeroVega put up this question:

Do you really want to know everything about everywhere?

And my reply is a simple yes. When I was a GM I did not really know much more than I did as a player, and I think it is of vital importance that a GM would know almost everything that is going on behind the scenes, it is what being a GM is about and yes it removes the mystery of the world, but if you can’t handle losing that then one shouldn’t be a GM, or so I think at least. About the gods, perhaps not everyone should know, but it should be in the deity forums at least, every cleric should be entitled to know why their god does as he/she/it does. Furthermore I would like to take another statement by ZeroVega and comment on:

Too bad I don't know any (secrets ed.) about Layonara... perhaps that's because there are none. About the gods, can you name for me one character or GM for that matter that knows in full what's going on? I can tell you, as I was a GM, that it's not posted in big bold print on the GM Forum all the little secrets of the plot, the gods, organizations, different lands and NWN 2 transitions.

Let me say this, there are plenty of secrecy in the GM structure and as you say it is not posted on the GM forum this information. Does that not already indicate some level of secrecy; at least it does to me. I know there are forums I have never seen nor will I ever see, I have seen some come and go, being closed of for some within a day of it appearing, but I shall not name these forums in respect of the teams. In any case does any ordinary quest GM know what the World GM’s are doing, I don’t think so and I know they don’t have access to the World GM forums, now I would call that secrecy as well. Why should any GM not be able to know what is going on in the world, I find that odd to be honest.  I don’t know if I overstep my boundaries here but I will then speak of team structure which I think is also a problem. I have stated this within the GM team before I left so I will merely summarize here as we are talking of this anyways. The team is like a pyramid, at top L then we get World GM’s, then GM’s then Project Team, and then Project Writers and finally the players at the bottom, no one can see the forum of the one above, and very very little information is passed downwards. I myself found that frustrating and I do believe that a more open structure could work equally well if not better, but I know few share this view. I see no reason why information is not passed downwards, it would serve well I think to have many issues shared and also would allow for more views on the matter. I do believe that a horizontal team structure can work just as well as a strictly vertical one, but again this is just my opinion.

And speaking of views on a matter. There was the vote for the twins and “the community “was asked. How many voted on that one…56. Now I will be so rude to say that it is not the opinion of the community that is the opinion of part of the community. The survey was open for 24 hrs and 45 minutes according to times of posting and if we count the posts for and against we have 11 to 1 (excluding posts from L, Stormspirit, Pankoki and posters who posts more than once) which mean that 27 % of the people who voted in favour posted what they thought, where as only 7 % of those who voted against voiced their concerns in a post. I think this should perhaps be considered as well, why do people not voice concerns? Could it be that people are afraid to post critique of things, fearing “retaliation” or perhaps a ban for being too outspoken in disagreement, I am leaning to that answer but I imply you to ponder it for a moment while you look at the numbers again.

Generally I don’t have much faith in a forum survey; it is hardly something I would base a decision upon so to say. If we look through the forum it is filled with praise and back-patting, but don’t you ever wonder why there is so little critique? Could be everything is A-OK and in that case fine, but at least from the people I speak to it seems things are not ok, in fact somewhat far from ok. Out of respect for those who have confided in me I will not disclose any names, but I have been told that people are afraid to post critique as they fear being banned or punished by the team, or simply end on some GM’s “black list” so said GM will cause them problems. I think this is a sign that something is terribly wrong in the community, there is a huge rift between players and GM’s in some cases I think. Just think of this simple example.

Joe Average begins to play Layonara. He likes it here and wants to progress into epic levels or perhaps even world leader. Now suddenly Joe finds out that there is something he disagrees strongly with and for him there are two possible options. Easiest is to keep quiet with it, perhaps even praising the team for their skill and dedication, ensuring he has done nothing wrong that may hinder him from reaching his goal. On the other hand Joe could also publicly or in a PM voice his opinion and concern; however that could mean that he would step on some toes and Joe knows that those who will be approving him for his goal are those he will be criticizing. They will when time comes discuss his application in a closed forum where he has no chance to defend himself, let alone know what is being said about him, so Joe goes with what he knows is safe and stays quiet.

I believe people fear the team, they fear the wrath of the GM’s and they know the GM’s hold the ultimate power in Layonara, as well as many believes that power corrupts.

Now Harloff made a statement about GM’s being allowed to do more than players. Even if this is not the case, it is how it can be perceived by people. This is what it is important to watch out for, perceptions. It does not always matter how things are, it matters how they are perceived by the community. If you never see a GM denied for Epic/World Leader and you see others denied it does not require much to seed the thought that they were approved solely because they are GM’s.

Please note that the following example is in no way intended to discredit the player of the character nor the character, it is simply used to illustrate a point and I mean no disrespect.

An example is the case of Remiel. Remiel fell from grace as far as I know and thus lost his paladin powers, or so you would expect at least. I for one am very puzzled then as to why he still has paladin levels, as well as fighter levels, the best of both worlds so to speak. With no explanation for this it simply reads as if he was a GM and thus he shouldn’t lose too much as one would imagine a paladin falling from grace would retain nothing of his paladinhood nor gain the bonus of fighter feats or perhaps it is just me that sees paladinhood as a very black/white thing, there is no middle ground in such.

I do believe that it is of utmost importance in everything one does, especially as a member of the team, that one thinks about how ones actions or commenting will be perceived. Of course there is never a fail-safe method, but at least by having this in mind constantly one will improve the odds for not arising misperceptions.

Another prime example about how things are perceived is this, and again please bear in mind that this should not be read as an attack or attempt to discredit anyone, but merely how I have perceived things. It has been brought up that Pankoki and Stormspirit play much together and also Pankoki ran Stormspirits ECDQ as a one-on-one thing. Now as they are friends they should of course be allowed to play together, I believe everyone agrees to that. However one should perhaps note that the perceptions of how things are might be different. As to illustrate, Eldarwen and Acacea and Triba are all chars who spend a lot of time together or so I gather at least. Now when Pankoki runs a quest where these two attend and also take initiative, and by doing so gets more attention, as Pankoki states himself, those who take initiative get rewarded. To people that may very easily be seen as favouritism or as Pankoki running the quest for Eldarwen, although this perhaps is not the case, something I shall not determine, I will merely focus on how it may be perceived.  But in any case such perception is troublesome as it is something that will not just die out if you don’t speak of it, it will remain in the hidden and living well there, trust me. I don’t have a solution for such problem, how to change the perception as it seems so integrated into the fabric of this world now, but we must bear in mind that people forget such things very slowly.

However as I have mentioned taking initiative I have a comment I would like to make as well, which deals not with perceptions nor anyone specific, but more a general statement. When we see characters taking initiative for a whole group it can be hard to add to this group. This is especially the case if the char in question is very intent on wanting the spotlight, and thus the attention of the GM. Now this may be all fine IC play, but I think we as players also besides being RP’ers have an OOC consideration to our fellow players, the people controlling the other chars in the party. I think it is the obligation of any player to think of how we may allow everyone in a party to have a moment in the spotlight if possible, and as GM’s we should try to accommodate everyone having at least a moment where they may be important, something I tried to implement on my quests at least. It may be intimidating if your typing skills are not overly good, if you are not speaking English as your native language and you are grouped with those epic GM chars. I can well understand why some don’t really participate in a quest then but hang back and “leech” xp to use that term. I think at that point it becomes important that we remember our OOC considerations and perhaps at times set them above being correct IC play. This would, or so I hope, make it easier to integrate high and low levels making them better team-players. To put it simple I think we should have consideration of our fellow players and set that above the need to be correct IC for our char always. This does not mean you cannot RP your char, it just means that sometime we should stop trying to hug the limelight and let others step up, or even encourage them to step up. Even if this perhaps not is proper RP for your char, it is a consideration for your fellow player and I find that equally important.

Another issue, which I think is in the spirit of the posts Harloff used to make, is about crafting. Crafting is a nice addition to NWN, but there are issues. The imposed limitations for once, they were added to stop people from mass producing I think, but it does not stop anyone from mass producing, it only means I now have to spend 40 times as long polishing 200 gemstones, but I still do it, although annoyed. And annoyed is the word here, it causes only annoyance for those who wish to become great crafters, something that requires hours of grinding. Yes crafting is grinding, at least if you want to be good, that is a fact I believe. I have heard the argument that the limit adds realism, but I hardly think that it is a bonus as there are so many other places where realism is missing in crafting, which I can illustrate by these examples:

-   From a 5lb gold ingot you can make 1 ring, and an amulet takes 10lbs of gold, what happens to the leftovers?
-   Swords are made in molds, such sword would hardly work, and it is made from metal and by hammering it, not by pouring liquid metal into a mold that is how you make cast iron which is not useable for weapons.
-   Costumization is difficult, but the concept of changing your armor after it has been made holds no basis in reality, armors are costum made, or at least if we go for plate armors.

Just 3 quick examples to show how realism already is missing so why try to make some realism by adding an annoyance factor for the people who craft.  

Now someone mentioned the amounts of rules here. I myself have no problem with rules, but I think we also need to understand that no matter how many rules you make there will always be people who break them, or go to that place where you are no longer playing within the spirit of the rule but going by the letter of the rule, which can be a difference. People will most often try to get the most of things, I believe it is in our nature really, and so people will utilize whatever means they have available to make themselves get to the most favourable situation. I mean we see spells that can make people do things they perhaps were not meant to do, and so the spell gets changed so it can no longer be used in such powerful way. I cannot help but wonder at times why this is, if you take a look at it from a player standpoint, a point I try to take as often as I can, it would seem like you are indeed punished for being clever and using your resources to the fullest potential. This is a low magic world, so by definition spellcasters will be far more powerful than non-magic users, simple as that. So of course you will see spellcasters being able to do more than most others, they will become the most powerful on the server. I recall the discussion of Tenser’s Transformation where it was discussed if said spell should be disallowed as it would allow mages and sorcerers to solo far more than anyone else. Well if we just drag in the low-magic world view it is obvious that they should be able to go places fighters wouldn’t even dare of going. It is how things are when a world is set in low-magic. As those without spell abilities cannot improve through powerful magical items they will not be able to keep up with magic users. So I ask this, why hit on those who actually play clever and use their spells and a skill to the maximum of what is possible, to me it somehow seems a bit odd.

I know this is volunteer work and that no one gets paid, and L has to pay for server costs, so yes it is his world and bravo to those who help create it. However they are not the only ones giving their time actually, what about the players who spend hour after hour here, without them there wouldn’t be a world as we have now. Just a small spin on this which I think is important to remember.

I would also like to make a comment on the post Harloff made with regards to his attacks but first a word before my point. This is not intended as an attack on anyone, it is a statement of a fact, and I imply you to read it not as an attack or slur. Yes such attack as he made are uncalled for I agree and alas it has drawn attention away from the points he made. However I would like to add this. In the past there have been several instances where the posts made by Pankoki have been sub-par to the high standards set by for instance Rhizome, who is always respectful in his replies to players no matter how many times a question have been asked and no matter how “dumb” it may seem. Time ago the posts made by Pankoki did often have a hard tone and were not always respectful to the players, this however has changed and respect to Pankoki for that. However one must expect that people do not forget such easily. If you once see a GM post a hard reply to your question you will remember it, it will only make the rift between players and GM’s bigger as no one wants to have such reply to their posts, hence they don’t post. As such I will merely say this: do to others as you wish them to do to you, for people do not forget past transgressions easily.  

My next point is a simple one. I think as things are Layonara is on the point of being too large. This is especially with regards to how things work; it started as a small game for a few people but has grown tremendously. One cannot expect things that work with few people to work with such huge community as well. For Layonara to continue to grow I think drastic changes should be made or it will break under the pressure caused by a growing players base.

I’ve seen that several posts say that if you are not satisfied with how things are you should just find another place to play instead of complaining about what is not right. Well I think that is very wrong, I think if you are not satisfied it is important that you voice why you are not content. It is not to disrespect anyone or anything people complain, or at least for me it is not. I care deeply for this world and when I complain it is out of concern and I wish to bring attention to things that might be perceived negatively by others than me, in an attempt to make things better, or so is my feeble hope. But from the posts I have read through there I get a distinct feeling that people think we should all bow down and be content or leave, something I can never agree with, one should always stand up and say what one believes to be right and wrong, no matter if this is a free game or not. If we are at a point where we cannot criticise or at least the community doesn’t think we should do so I think we are truly lost. It is really seen as this, when one posts critique you will most likely see 5 others posting that they don’t agree and that the team is doing great and you should not complain, I think that shows that perhaps within the community itself there is no room to criticise which is truly saddening.

But as I have seen most who post hold the aforementioned opinion I shall take my hat and leave, for I am indeed not content with how things are. Thus for me it is a sad day in a way, but also a day where I will put my frustration to rest once and for all. When I came here first I thought I would play here until Layonara was no more, I joined the teams to add what I could to this world that I had come to love and where I have spent numerous hours, playing and interacting with you all. However I had the simple hope I could perhaps help things improve for there will always be things that needs improvement, but alas I could not. Or perhaps rather I could not keep my energy for it, I have felt drained due to my frustration with the game, a reason I have not played in a while. I could simply no more find the energy to log on and be reminded of my frustration. I have found many a good friend here and it is with sadness I say farewell to those, but I hope we may still communicate from time to time.

To quote Lonnarin on the options available I will sum it up as this:

Go to another Server – Done, already found one
Go to EB and buy a new game – Done, bought WoW quite a while ago
Go outside meet women – Done and done as well although I stick to the one I already met.

But joking aside, and this was intended as a joke and not a stab. I think things could be improved in many aspects and perhaps they will in time. I have done as much as I can and have the energy for, posting about my concerns both here and on the GM forums while I was a GM, but at some point I have stopped to care. I make this final post as I think someone should stand up for Harloff who made some very valid points if you look past the wording of his post.

I had hoped that there would be posts from those who share these critical views on things, as this was a prime opportunity to get a debate going about the problems. But alas it was not meant to be, which is saddening.

I have had a wonderful time playing here before frustration set in, and I hope when I think back on Layonara that I will be reminded of the good times for there has been an incredible amount of those, but alas I fear I shall remember the end better than the beginning.

Farewell and best of luck to you all

*takes his hat of the rack and leaves, his head hanging low*

[Filatus]

I'm sorry to see you go Meizter. Great post and I think you've made some valid points. And it speaks on your behalf that you take the time to defend Harloff, of whom I know he always had the best intentions with Layo.

I can definately understand that as a gemcrafter the new craftsystem doesn't work for you. I myself spend from time to time almost a hour in polishing gems, luckily avoiding RSI despite all the ridiculous clicking.

With you now leaves the last of a group, You, Harloff and Winter, whith whom I had a great time playing and let's not forget being the founders of Raven. Can't say much else than take care right now, because I don't like farewells.

[Leanthar]

"...I have a feeling I will be banned for this post, but I want to express my thoughts first, and should I be banned so be it..."
  *sighs* Come on man. You knew darn good and well you wouldn't be. You put that there because it was an intentional dig at me. Very sad to see that. You are not banned because this was constructive, not flaming.
“….- Gods: why aren’t people told of them, it is like having a cardinal at church having to call the pope to get an opinion on a matter or explain why something is a sin. Even high level clerics here do not know why things are as they are, and if I played a cleric I would find that immensely frustrating….”  Pretty simple really. They are still being defined. I did not start this out with a budget of TSR, nor the man power. The team does not have the budget nor the manpower of WoTC. It is really very simple. It is called time and we are still defining them.
“…- Krashin: This is a very recent thing but none the less I will bring it up. We have had a history and in depth description of Krashin lying for perhaps 5 months, but people are not allowed to see it. Why not just throw it on LORE for all to see instead of waiting for a new handbook, we have a LORE-team after all…..”  I have already answered this above. Guess it wasn’t good enough of an answer but that is the answer.
“…In any case does any ordinary quest GM know what the World GM’s are doing, I don’t think so and I know they don’t have access to the World GM forums, now I would call that secrecy as well. Why should any GM not be able to know what is going on in the world, I find that odd to be honest….”  They are running quests. I will never require them to get approval from players on what quest should and should not be run. They are here as volunteers. They do the quests that they can when they can. If that is not good enough then I do not know what to tell you. *sitting here totally stunned with this statement*
“….I don’t know if I overstep my boundaries here but I will then speak of team structure which I think is also a problem. I have stated this within the GM team before I left so I will merely summarize here as we are talking of this anyways. The team is like a pyramid, at top L then we get World GM’s, then GM’s then Project Team, and then Project Writers and finally the players at the bottom, no one can see the forum of the one above, and very very little information is passed downwards. I myself found that frustrating and I do believe that a more open structure could work equally well if not better, but I know few share this view. I see no reason why information is not passed downwards, it would serve well I think to have many issues shared and also would allow for more views on the matter. I do believe that a horizontal team structure can work just as well as a strictly vertical one, but again this is just my opinion…..”  WOW! There are only 3-4 positions that has to have authority and that is all we have. We have a team of 30 (around that) and only 3-4 “managers perse” that is pretty darn flat! Me of course, Dorganath to merge all of the content and get the module out (no easy task and I will not allow just anybody to do that), Orth and OneST8 doing another project. That is about it as far as managers. You tell me how to get it any more flat than that. If you think you can do better in a company or business then give it a shot. This is the link to the org chart and it is darn flat. http://layonaraonline.com/organization%5Fchart/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_files/Layonara%20Online%20Organization%20Chart_frames.htm
“…I know this is volunteer work and that no one gets paid, and L has to pay for server costs, so yes it is his world and bravo to those who help create it. However they are not the only ones giving their time actually, what about the players who spend hour after hour here, without them there wouldn’t be a world as we have now. Just a small spin on this which I think is important to remember….”  Totally agree. But again you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill problem. There is little to nothing that can be done about all of this in a volunteer project. It is not a company and we do not have funding and unlimited man-power hours. If it was a company where we had an income and guaranteed man-power hours things would be a little different but it is not. We do the best we can. To some it is not good enough and that is fine, everybody has their own opinion. If you can do better then go out there and give it a whirl.
“…I’ve seen that several posts say that if you are not satisfied with how things are you should just find another place to play instead of complaining about what is not right. Well I think that is very wrong, I think if you are not satisfied it is important that you voice why you are not content….”  Agreed. You can talk about content, what should go in the game, what is wrong in the game systems, how to fix those game systems etc. But don’t flame, don’t accuse, don’t assume you know how to lay out the structure better etc. You can always recommend but if things do not go the way of the recommendation it does not mean that you are right and we are wrong because we did not choose what you recommended (or anybody recommended).
"….But as I have seen most who post hold the aforementioned opinion I shall take my hat and leave, for I am indeed not content with how things are. Thus for me it is a sad day in a way, but also a day where I will put my frustration to rest once and for all. When I came here first I thought I would play here until Layonara was no more, I joined the teams to add what I could to this world that I had come to love and where I have spent numerous hours, playing and interacting with you all. However I had the simple hope I could perhaps help things improve for there will always be things that needs improvement, but alas I could not. Or perhaps rather I could not keep my energy for it, I have felt drained due to my frustration with the game, a reason I have not played in a while. I could simply no more find the energy to log on and be reminded of my frustration. I have found many a good friend here and it is with sadness I say farewell to those, but I hope we may still communicate from time to time…..”  Good luck out there and I hope you find what you are looking for. But judging by this post I think it will take you running your own world with your own content and teams in order for you to be happy. It is not an easy thing, give it a shot. Dedicate 40+ hours a month to something with even a team of 3-5 (you will need at least that to get even a small player base) and good luck finding the good ones out there. I do wish you the best and I hope you find what you are looking for in the RP field.
“….But joking aside, and this was intended as a joke and not a stab. I think things could be improved in many aspects and perhaps they will in time. I have done as much as I can and have the energy for, posting about my concerns both here and on the GM forums while I was a GM, but at some point I have stopped to care. I make this final post as I think someone should stand up for Harloff who made some very valid points if you look past the wording of his post. …”  You didn’t really stop caring, you grew tired of trying to help improve things. Quite a difference there. Now put yourself in our shoes where we are still trying 4 years later. Change and improvement is not easy and it takes a long time especially in a strictly volunteer situation. It is no easy task to make sweeping changes with limited man-power, no set hours, no real way to get the changes done except the love and desire of the volunteers carrying through on their commitments (something that is hard to find). Doing what we do we have to work through the weariness, the torment of being beat on every single day (and yes it is very nearly every single day). We do the best we can, just like everybody out there. I am glad you found a server and I hope it continues to hold up to what you want it to be months or years down the road.
  It is sad to see you guys go, you are great RP'ers that is for certain. But this is usually what happens when friends start talking about how bad/wrong things are. They get each other in a boil until it gets out of control. All well and good as everybody has a right to their own feelings and desires. Good luck and take care. Wherever you go the server is lucky to have your RP join them.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I have several things to say in response to Meizter's post.

I applaud the maturity and decorum used in the presentation of his concerns.

I cannot bring myself to understand why on earth he would leave before even giving the chance for things to improve.

I agree with virtually every statement he made, especially in regards to the perceptions of "DM favoritism" as it relates to the interaction on quests between high-level characters, DMs, and lower-level characters. I do not mean to say that such things are actually the case, but, as stressed in Meizter's post, the perception is a common one.

I disagree with the comment on mass crafting to an extent, because the limits on the number of finished products that can be made keep the chances for success (and XP gain) at appropriate places, instead of putting fifty ingots, fifty molds, and fifty polished gems onto the jeweler's bench when you've only got a 5% chance.

I disagree with the comment on the customization of armor; for me, all the time spent at those customization tools is OOC. I'm just trying to get the look that my character would've bought in the first place.

I disagree with the sentiment that we are likely lost; please, Meizter, at least give the chance for betterment. The way you posted, even if the things you had said had been a harsh, glaring critique of everything Layonara is, gives the team no reason to see you banned. It was your respectfulness (as opposed to Harloff's lack thereof, who may not have been banned it had required a unanimous vote from the Team; different levels of tolerance for such on their parts, it would seem) that makes your post a good example on the way to present even the most dire of concerns.

I feel that your judgement is off in regards to your immediate leavetaking, but that is your choice. I wish you well in the choice you did make, Meizter.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Very well formulated Meizter. It shows that you have given these matters some thought and wished to share your concerns with the community in a constructive manner. Thank you for that. I am very sorry to see you go. I had great times with Geir as a player and GM both. Stay in touch... and lets get this get-together organized in the end of July. Could be fun to meet you guys.

Your concerns, as well as Harloff's, have been brought to the GM forum and are being discussed. We'll do our best to address these matters even though none of them are easily solved.

Check in from time to time.

Kind regards, Thorsten

[Chuckles_McChuck]

Most things I would have commented on were already taken care of by many of the others who posted before me.  

I too agree there may be a "perception" on GM favoritism (I say "may be" because I haven't noticed it myself, but I tend to not look too deep into these things and go with the philosophy, "As long as I'm enjoying my time here with my character, who cares who is getting special treatment or not."  However I know some people do), which can be intimidating to players.  Really, its not hard for GM's to have that kind of influence on a server such as this, and some might abuse it, but if you think these aren't policed in a sence, I think you are wrong.

Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions.  For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made?  I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ.

Thats all I have for now, heh, I work better in small spurts then making huge paragraphs, I dont have the patience for it.  The last thing I'll say, which I really can't find a way to support my thoughts on it.  Is the server is growing too fast and I myself am starting to lose that great feel I once had for it on the first couple of years I was on the server.  I doubt I will ever leave, as I already put so much time and dedication to my character and her role here, I would not be satisfied leaving until the day her story ends on Layonara... which I doubt will be anytime soon.

[Leanthar]

"....Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions. For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made? I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ...."
  Nope, that is very much incorrect. It was made because a GM had a too long quest and I didn't think it was a good thing to happen as the perception of favortism happened and sadly is still happening. What you stated is exactly the opposite of why it was made. Sadly people always think the worse in things but that is okay. We make mistakes and we try to fix them and in this case the rule came from the exact opposite reason you stated.
  I have to say I am saddened to see that people think so badly of things that they assume the rule was in place to hurt players. The rule is also in place because we can not keep up with the flood of quests and quest requests. We are already a long ways behind and we had to adjust things in order to see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

[jan]

"I believe people fear the team, they fear the wrath of the GM’s and they know the GM’s hold the ultimate power in Layonara"


As i am one of those that thinks it will be held against you if you criticise too much , i will step over my fear and after reading both Meizters post and Leantars reply ask the things i'm missing in the reply that interest me because it would take away most of the questions i have .


"That a class isn’t working is perhaps also a reason why so few play it, who wants to play something that is basically useless. About adding “I understand the limitations of my class” to a submission is really not necessary I think as such lies implicit in applying for the class, however you will no where find the calculations on how DC’s are determined etc. for your feats, which should be fixed at least so people can stay clear of these non-working classes. But even if you know the limitations you should still be allowed to say “this is not working” and ask for it to be fixed, I see no reason why one should be content with something that is not functioning as intended."

How is the view of the team on this ?


"Lucinda has some of the best domains and the golems are not to be trifled with. I will wager that 90% of the people here when planning a character think about how to get the best of it power-wise and I shall readily be the first to say that for me it goes as well, although I chose poorly when I chose the skald  

I believe the bear Harloff mentions is summonable at level 17 and has a CR of 25 or there about. Now don’t say that such summon is reasonable, with such summon you only need to buff it and stand back and watch it kill while you harvest the XP. Basically I believe with such you can solo Dregar easily."

Is the team working on balancing this and IF not ,why not ?...For me as a specialised fighter character (weaponmaster)it is frustating to see that "spellslingers"can do so much more then a fighter.I know and understand that this server is meant as one of the few servers that encourage partyplay a lot and wonder how it is possible that "spellslingers" somehow are the only ones that can tackle regions alone and profit from that a lot.


"Now Harloff made a statement about GM’s being allowed to do more than players. Even if this is not the case, it is how it can be perceived by people. This is what it is important to watch out for, perceptions. It does not always matter how things are, it matters how they are perceived by the community. If you never see a GM denied for Epic/World Leader and you see others denied it does not require much to seed the thought that they were approved solely because they are GM’s"

As i have been wondering about that myself , i would like to know if the team talks about a behavior code for gm/dm characters regarding the following things :Approval for WLDQ/Epic;Approval of reimbursed items lost to their chars;limitation on their chars due to roleplaying events;assigned items after quests for the same characters.I'm asking this because i have seen some things that in my eyes place gm characters above non-dm characters.I will not put any names or examples in this post and if you want to know witch things i talk about,please feel free to ask either in tells or trough pm.


"People will most often try to get the most of things, I believe it is in our nature really, and so people will utilize whatever means they have available to make themselves get to the most favourable situation. I mean we see spells that can make people do things they perhaps were not meant to do, and so the spell gets changed so it can no longer be used in such powerful way. I cannot help but wonder at times why this is, if you take a look at it from a player standpoint, a point I try to take as often as I can, it would seem like you are indeed punished for being clever and using your resources to the fullest potential."

A point i take to hart myself. As a weaponmaster you have to have an intelligence of 13 or higher to even be able to take the PRC.Is it wrong if i play my character to his full potential ? This intelligence in my eyes makes him smart enough to NOT run into things were he can get killed , but instead he WILL lure the monsters out a few at a time simply because it improves his chances to survive and get what he came for.

If you (the team) would be so kind to give me a guideline on how i SHOULD see it would be nice and would perhaps prevent me from making mistakes as to server policy in luring rules.

I know the team and in particular Leantar could spend their time better then replying to posts like this and i understand that it gets frustrating to see these posts come up now and again .Apart from the questions i have put inhere i would like to say that i realy enjoy playing here and that because i have turned my character from a pure adventuring one into a more roleplaying,hanging around Hlint character, the changes sofar to improve roleplay opportunities are greatly appreciated.

Last but not least ,Meizter i realy hate to see you go forgood and that is not because Raven loses a great jeweler but because i will miss a great character.
With you the last of the founders of Raven will go and i'm sad to see that happen,be happy in the choices you make and i wish you much fun in whatever game you find to play.Please try to visit from time to time and let us know how things go with you and Harloff.

"May Aeridin guide your ways "....*grins* "Wait ...wrong one " May the storm be with you "*smiles* Good luck friend ...hope to see you around once in while.


 
 

[Varka]

Okay. Got 5 min to write something before I am on the road 350 km.

1.   Yes: Crtisime is aloud, should and always be object (or at least as much as possible)
2.   Secrecy or gabs in history: Either way – GMs should have the knowledge of the world or what there is. GMs are “Gods” so to say.
3.   Gms are Gms for one reason. They should be discipline, mature, loyal to Layonara and making sure it developments (and not to friends, players, GMs or even L).
4.   Being a player and Gm at the same time – that gives problem in my eyes. But as Dan stated. Then Gms would be burn out. What to do? I have no clue
5.   There are good things and bad things about Layo and there will always be. Bad things are just problems/ a challenge which needs to be solved.
6.    Structure of Layo and the Team: I have no idea how it works but flat structures are good (looking from a medium big company).
7.   GMs: to favour players:  DAARRRHHH! Wrong answer (but this happens or players suddenly sees it).
8.   GMs: Fair play – give all a piece of the spotlight – BINGO!


Frustrated: Been there, done that and I am still there on occasions but I think I have and idea that might will help a bit…

But it is a secrete for now



Geir and Harloff. Sorry to see you leave. There is probably not much I can do to get you back…
Well I will stick around here for a while and see what happens.

And in the near future 29.07 - I believe I can convince you guys if my idea gets the green light.


Thomas

[regnus]

Ok.  It is pretty clear that we have a line between the GM team and the player base.  I don't think that anyone is going to dispute this.  What I think is unfortunate is that so few players have stepped up to initiate any kind of change.  

Before anyone replies to this post, please read it through and think about it.  It is all too easy to just fire off a post whether you supporting or dissenting.  Really sit back and read it a few times and digest it, then post your thoughts.

Let me address some things that I see.  I look at what are now several seperate posts on this topic and I see mostly the same people responding.  These are not the people that have the problems really.  It is the silent people out there that are having the problem.  

Here is a suggestion (and I say this with no sarcasm or any kind of snideness)...

OPEN YOUR MOUTHS!  

If you want to affect change then you have to change yourself.  How is the team to know that there is a problem if you do not inform the team?  If you have a problem with a specific GM then go to another one.  We talk amongst ourselves but there is no dark and smoky backroom where we plot the demise of a dissenting player.

I for one welcome comments and suggestions.  At the end of every one of my quest sessions I open it up for questions, comments, and complaints.  Fire away.  The only rule I ask is that you keep it respectful and constructive.  It is really hard for someone to improve if you just tell them that they suck.

The same goes for the world as a whole.  How are we to improve *anything* if you, the players, dont tell us?  This is your world as well as mine, or Orth's, or Pan and Storm's.  Open your mouths and tell us what is wrong.  We are not going to hold it against you.

If you still feel that the forums are not a 'safe' place to let these things be known, then email L.  His door is ALWAYS open.  ALWAYS.  Tell me where else can you find something like that?  Even before becoming a GM I can remember PMing L and getting a darn near immediate response.  L cares for Layonara and wants to see everyone happy and having fun.  This is not to say that his response will be 100% to your liking, but rest assured, your voice will be heard and that is saying something.  And it should also be noted that when there is a discussion that needs to take place or a problem that needs addressed, L will put this out to the GM team.  Now before you read that and think that L just copies PMs to the GM forum, I can tell you that EVERY time L brings a PM or email concern from a player, it is done anonymously to us.  He posts the content and that is it.  No names ever enter the picture unless the player approves of it first.  Names that happen to be in the PM are often blanked out or covered by *******.  

Your voices can be heard.  The initiative is on you, the players, to take it.  Tell us what you have a problem with.  If you dont like something then let us know.  The time we have may be better spent somewhere else.  

Let's not confuse things though.  Having your voice heard and having everything go your way is something different.  Let's all go into this with the proper expectations.  If the team goes in a different direction than you want us to, then you have to accept that.  You dont win every battle after all.  The point is, we dont know that you disagree with the direction unless you tell us.  We discuss almost everything that is done in the world for quite some time before we move forward to implement.  Rest assured that player concerns are a part of that discussion.

So please people, if you have a problem, let us know.  Whether it is a post on the forum, a PM to a GM, or an email to L.  Speak your mind (respectfully) and let your voice be heard.  Sitting out there and stewing on a problem is helping no one.  In the end, you lose your fun and we lose a player.  No one wants that.

[Acacea]

I already responded to this sort of thing twice, so I don't really want to double or triple cover, but there are some things in this one that I feel, while not quite accurate, are easy enough to reply to.

Things like complaints that "we get holdable flowers when we've got broken classes."

Think for a moment on how much time is really involved in both of those. They're not even in the same league, so honestly in my opinion saying that flowers 'made the list' instead of the huge amount of time necessary to fix a class that will affect a handful of people, does not feel entirely truthful to me.

If someone finds a hak on the vault that can wave a magic wand at Layo-PrCs and fix them with just the addition of plopping an npc down or something, then by all means! That certainly should have taken priority.

But that is not the case, and so when cruising the vault and finding something waiting to be implemented and thinking, "Hey, this is kind of cool--maybe some people would enjoy this," and some people do, it seems more like "Mission accomplished," not "too bad this took up the balance slot! Ah well!"

That said, I feel that if it cannot be fixed right away and players must live with it as a flavor class until then, it should be clearly stated in its write-up so that they have the information beforehand. Yes, it is for roleplaying value. But let them look at how it works, and ask themselves, "is this key to my character's concept, and will I enjoy myself down the line regardless of true mechanical benefit?"

Edit--fixed a double "are" in the first paragraph.

[curtwise]

When you are new to Layonara and a beginner in "L's" world, everything seems unfair and unequitable. The dice rolls are against you even the "lag" on the server is your enemy. This world has some deficiencies, some things that dont work the way they could or should. Whether it be the rules, the software or the hardware. I'm so far down the food chain, i cant even see the the DM's, GM's or deities of this world.

Just like in real life (RL), there are plenty of things to complain about. We all hear the sayings dont just complain about it, do something about it,  or be constructive in your criticism(s). Each person whether here or in RL has their own individual way of dealing with stress and frustration. I think as human beings we make concessions or at the very least tolerate each individual's right to express their emotions, opinions or feelings. We actually find ourselves (as seen in this thread) defending each player's right to express those very things.

We also have the right to screen out those opinions that we dont agree with or might cause us to feel uneasy about our own situations or person(self). Whether as a player or in RL or as the creator of a cyber world (excuse the expression). It is up to each of us to hold fast and hard to what we hold true and dear to ourselves.

Hence, some will stay in Layonara, some will leave, and some may return. The best thing we can do for each other is to make our stay here pleasant and enjoyable. Again, hence "all" the rules that the creator has set down for this world and the palyers in it.These rules help to form the foundation for fun in this RP world.

I believe the God, Jehova of the Christian faith did the very same thing. Created and began to, out of necessity, create laws and rules so people could co-exist. Otherwise, as seen in other PW's or MMO's or (whatever else exists), chaos reigns and rules, making the experience unpleaseant and intolerable for most players.

This world is free to enjoy, where we can learn and grow in the RP experience,  but it is not free for players to abuse or misuse, not at the expense of what has been invested by the founders and for those that spend their precious time to maintain. And not at the expense of the enjoyment of the those that want to play in this world.

So as a newbie to Layonara, i hesitate to express an opinion, but have read and heard the opinions of those participating in this thread. I feel compassioned (word?) to say thanks to those willing to express their opinions whether i agree with them or not. I ultimately, of course, agree with "The Man", its his world!  But such honest and frank discussions, although time consuming for some, ultimately give players the feeling of "community", a word that is so profoundly being thrown around in these forums.

Even the printed words of "L" himself speak of an expanding and growing world. A world with a sense of "community" that is shared by those that participate and "live " in Layonara. There is a common thread of decency, commonality as well as diversity that is shared in this world by all players. This common sense of "community" has been preserved, nurtured and maintained by it's creator and the team that serves us all. For what purpose(?), so we as players can RP, simply stated!

I don't agree with everything in this created world, but until I can put together the hardware and work out the software and create my own vision of a PW, I will respect this world and it's rules. Not without some whining and griping, for that is what i do in RL too. But i wont tear down the institution i work/play for unless I can do better myself. So I will direct myself to making Layonara the best place to RP for myself and others. I wont be perfect and at times i may not be believable as a character, but i am learning, And i havent seen or found a better place or safer place to learn, than right here in Layonara. I believe this so much so, that i am encouraging interested family to join me in Layonara.

And should the the money gods choose to bless me, i plan on helping with financial support as well. Something about "put your money where your mouth is?!"

DM's, GM's, staff and players continue to make this a great place to game and be, now if only i can convince my wife to go on line with me. hummmmm....Thanks!

[Chuckles_McChuck]

Leanthar - 6/23/2006  8:52 AM    "....Remember a rule was placed for ECDQ's that they will be no longer then 25 hours or 5 sessions. For those who think there is favoritism should ask themselves why this rule was made? I'm pretty sure it wasn't because some "NON"-GM had too long an ECDQ...."
  Nope, that is very much incorrect. It was made because a GM had a too long quest and I didn't think it was a good thing to happen as the perception of favortism happened and sadly is still happening. What you stated is exactly the opposite of why it was made. Sadly people always think the worse in things but that is okay. We make mistakes and we try to fix them and in this case the rule came from the exact opposite reason you stated.

 *blinks* ummm... I guess I could have chose my wording better, though I thought I was clear, Leanthar, I was on your side on this one.  What you stated the reason for it happening was what I said, just in different context.

[lonnarin]

hmmm, I'm quoted JUST short of "pick up a sourcebook or codebook, pitch in and help out if you want things fixed" as far as options go...  the one that requires effort on the player's part.  I'm not screaming "love it or leave it", to any extent, but if you don't like what's going on in the world... make an effort to join the teams and fix it.

I too play a skald and often for over a year and a half now.  Yeah, I know things were lacking in the PrC, I used to blind, deafen and cause terror in myself whenever I failed my willsaves against myself!  At that point, I filled out a bug report, and it was fixed by the next update.  As for the team's dedication in this matter, Orth took time out of his own playing schedule to send me a tell in game about not taking too many skald levels yet, as the class is currently being streamlined to just 5 levels with most of the same features, but improved.  

I would also like to point out that I am a skald who enjoys walking around with flowers in my hand... la la la la! *prances about*  I personally welcome any and all additions to props, handheld items, nicknacks, paddywacks and superfluous minutia I can get!  It's the little things like mages holding books, clerics having holy symbols, necromancers customizing their staves to have skulls on top, married couples having a baby/bludgeoning object,  and dudes getting other dudes pretending to be women flowers that help the whole immersion factor.

I was a GM here briefly, but wound up being bogged down with too much schoolwork to keep up with the constant NEEDS (wants) of the community.  Every day I checked my account, I'd have about 6 new players sending me CDQ requests so they could turn into red dragon disciples by lvl 12, turn chaotic evil, validate their god-sex cults as official history, get free golem armies, have it suddenly rain yew from the skies, etc etc.  I would put up in huge bold letters on the CDQ request entry that I was full and not accepting more, highlight it, paint it red and everything... and there would be 8 more requests the next day right under it.  Then when you finally get to throw somebody's CDQ, they just don't show up and here you spent hours and hours drawing up plot, characts, designing the player special item rewards and having to send them in to update the database... and it's a no-show for 3 months.  DMing on even the lowest level of responsibilities is STRESSFUL, because there are tons of stressful people out there.  They sit and complain about there not being enough quests for all to play, then the same ones are those that send a request each to EVERY gm listed, then start going behind the backs of others requesting things that Leanthar already said no to.  (Azaria was told she couldn't be a Red Dragon Disciple by Leanthar, so she sent every GM a PM asking to have it run behind his back).  These same people are the ones who avoid the public quest calander like the plague, the quests we actually want to run.  Calander quests are seldom because the bottom 1 percentile of the populace wants 99% of our time running CDQs for every hangnail they get, hence the latest update to the rules where people on CDQs no longer get quest xp.

This is a free service, and as such, not beholden to any consumer's timetable.

[Chuckles_McChuck]

"Is the team working on balancing this and IF not ,why not ?...For me as a specialised fighter character (weaponmaster)it is frustating to see that "spellslingers"can do so much more then a fighter.I know and understand that this server is meant as one of the few servers that encourage partyplay a lot and wonder how it is possible that "spellslingers" somehow are the only ones that can tackle regions alone and profit from that a lot."

"This is a low magic world, so by definition spellcasters will be far more powerful than non-magic users, simple as that. So of course you will see spellcasters being able to do more than most others, they will become the most powerful on the server. I recall the discussion of Tenser’s Transformation where it was discussed if said spell should be disallowed as it would allow mages and sorcerers to solo far more than anyone else. Well if we just drag in the low-magic world view it is obvious that they should be able to go places fighters wouldn’t even dare of going. It is how things are when a world is set in low-magic. As those without spell abilities cannot improve through powerful magical items they will not be able to keep up with magic users. So I ask this, why hit on those who actually play clever and use their spells and a skill to the maximum of what is possible, to me it somehow seems a bit odd."

Also wanted to state this, and another quote I saw earlier if I can find it... anyways, found it heh, I wanted both of them as they prove how hard it is for the GM team to make the desicion on whats priority and whats not.  Your quote shows that you as a player think the "spellslingers" should still be made weaker still (correct me if I'm wrong).  The other quote from Meitzer states; though, that through the many rules were making the "spellslingers" too weak which should not be the case for a low magic world.

In situations like these it becomes a conflict of interests, and as was said before, you cant possibly please everyone.

[jan]

I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.

[Force_of_Will_]

My eyes hurt now.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

jan - 6/23/2006  2:29 PM

I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.

Despite playing something of a spellslinger myself I have noticed this inequity as well and in my working spice up the challenges across the servers I have also taken to making some more balanced fights to bring the spellslingers in with the fighters. One example of which is giving certain creatures an on hit banishment that will send off the summons if it hits them thus making a good PC fighter a necessity. I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc. though I started on East to give those that are coming up to epic levels and beyond a place to go that still offers XP and challenge so many have probably not yet seen this type of creature.

This is not to say that I am working to cripple the spellcasters either as a balanced party includes them as well, but with a mix of monster types and abilities in the spawns it will require just that... a balanced party.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

On the subject of class balance... I understand that magic-wielding characters are simply more powerful, but DMs SHOULD be the ultimate equalizing agent.

Yet I still find myself more or less useless on quests because my character 1) cant' cast or heal, 2) hasn't gotten some godlike DM-granted power for whatever reason, or 3) isn't given the opportunity to be useful because there are epics or near-epics who can do anything and everything Pyyran can do, better.

It almost feels like I'm being punished for my class choice; I understand this isn't the case, but... It's terribly frustrating when you give it your all and still get less (reward, things to actually DO in the quest, etc) than someone who just ran through whatever as opposed to roleplaying thier character.

And no, I'm not going to give specific examples, because I don't want this to turn into an accusation-fest. I just want some input on the issues I mentioned.

[Nibor21]

IceDragonDuvessa - 6/22/2006  7:41 PM

I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc.

*grins* This is probably the holy grail of NWN encounter building and as such is always really hard to achieve - It always seems whenever i have tried to make these encounters for a PW that you end with an encouter that destroys everyone in a party of level X, but a party of level Y stomps over the poor spawns as if they weren't there