Points in Harloff

[Marswipp]

My eyes are sore -- too much reading to do... I even skipped like two to four posts, took a brake to eat...

I couldn't exactly tell there was a rift between the community leaders (GM teams) and the community's base followers until it was pointed out...

It seems that being oblivious I have missed out on many things, even though I have my periods of long silence. (I now feel funny )

[Niles09]

FlameStrike - 6/26/2006  8:16 AM

Niles09 - 6/26/2006  7:07 PM



 Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts.

 That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there.

Year thats another problem. Some of us level slower than you would think possible. Ive been in here in a year. I dont like speeding around finding the bests place to get xp, (Because of school I can rarely go on quests) or finding some really strong people to take me to a place where Im of absolutly no use. Ive actually played here for over a year.

[SquareKnot]

That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there.

I think that actually makes the point. If all the rogue skills aren't useful until you either go on a quest or become 15th level and travel with a large, high level group to a formidible dungeon, then there is a balancing issue here. There is a shortage of opportunities for rogues to use their skills. Can you imagine telling a mage "You can only use magic from 3 schools unless on a quest or when you hit high level?"

For NWN2 Layo, I think a few more traps and locks would be nice. That's all. Request made. I'll leave it to the pros now.

[Dorganath]

Hold on a moment here....
  Rogue skills are not the same as casting spells.  Similar, but not the same.  A better comparison would be to compare skills.  Casting of spells is more akin to a rogue's sneak attack.
  For example, outside of quests, a wizard or sorcerer (or any spellcaster) can't really use the Spellcraft skill to its fullest potential.  Lore isn't used much except to identify the odd item or two; it's capable of so much more.
  Rogues can use Hide/Move Silently a lot when they're not on quests.  They can also make a lot of use of Use Magic Device.  Pickpocketing is of course not permitted except on quests.
  And lastly, it's important to know that there are in fact traps and locks all over the place that aren't in dungeons which are specifically placed to give rogues a means to apply their skills.  I can think of at least three places in Hlint alone. And there are several others in towns and cities all over Layonara.

[feniox]

I think that could be an idea to be honest, to restrict the caster numbers in some way. I just checked the server status, and on all three servers there are currently 47 players, 25 of those are wizards/sorcerors/clerics with most of them being the latter two.

Maybe there shouldn't be an upper limit on the amount of casters approved, but I think the idea of limiting them in the same way as racial restrictions could be a good idea, or possibly worked out in a ratio of casters vs other classes (I say "other classes" rather than fighters because that would ensure that the caster numbers would remain higher than they would if it was casters vs fighters).

Clerics could be different again, maybe with numbers restricting the amount of Clerics PCs that can be approved for anyone religion at a time, with those numbers varying depending on the deities. Obviously deities such as Lucinda and Toran may have a good number, whereas more "underground" clergies such as Corath or Baraeon Ca'Duz could be limited to less than a handful. Though that may not be a neccessary enforcement, I only know one person to ever play a Cleric of Ca'duz (that was me) and Corath clerics are restricted due to the alignment thing anyway. Maybe the cleric numbers could somehow be affected by the temple donations even, which would be another incentive for people to keep their donations coming in.

Just a thought though

[ZeroVega]

Actually, I played a Cleric of Ca'duz for a bit and I believe since drow society revolves so closely around their religion and so many drow strive to be clerics of their deitys (and the fact that there are very few of them) would actually make them one of the more "open" religions. I'm sure if it ever becomes apparent that certain classes are being chosen over others, not for their RP ability or because of the connection they have with a certain character they will cease to be approved for a while. It happened for a few months when the Fighter/Rogue combo started popping up every other day in the submissions forum. We eventually had to say, "Pick one or the other and if you find you want to multiclass in the future you can work toward it."

ZV-

[feniox]

ZeroVega - 6/26/2006  1:27 PM
 I believe since drow society revolves so closely around their religion and so many drow strive to be clerics of their deitys (and the fact that there are very few of them) would actually make them one of the more "open" religions.

That's true, but would there need to be that many of those clerics sent to the surface at any one time? Unless it's an invasion situation (which obviously wouldn't be played by PCs) I don't imagine there would be a need for a great number of Ca'duz clerics to be above the surface.

I think that would be more of a reason for restricting them, though like I said before, there aren't enough applications for those anyway for it to become much of an issue. Including yourself I still only know two of us who have played them for any amount of time in the last 18months or so, but I could be wrong?

[SquareKnot]

Dorganath - 6/26/2006  2:04 PM   Hold on a moment here....
  Rogue skills are not the same as casting spells.  Similar, but not the same.  A better comparison would be to compare skills.  Casting of spells is more akin to a rogue's sneak attack.
   

 True, rogue skills aren't the same as spells. But the comparison is fair, because a mage character grows in strength through getting more and better spells. The rogue improves through getting more and better skills. It's a skills based character. If it weren't for sneak attack, skills would be the only signficant way a rogue improved. A rogue would pick up more hit points, like all other classes, a feat now and then, like other classes, better attack bonus, like other classes. The only thing that makes a rogue special is the skills.  

For example, outside of quests, a wizard or sorcerer (or any spellcaster) can't really use the Spellcraft skill to its fullest potential.

Not to its full potential, but it can be used. The engine automatically uses it for identifying the spells others cast. It can also be used when counterspelling. And again, it's a very, very tiny part of the class. If Bioware removed Spellcraft from the game, would it alter things significantly? Would people stop playing mages/sorcerers? No, because the class strength would still be there. Would druids stop being druids if Animal Empathy was removed? No, because druids would still have their strengths. Would people think twice about being bards if perform were removed? Probably, because Bard Song is a core strength of the class. Not everything, but a big part.

Rogues can use Hide/Move Silently a lot when they're not on quests. They can also make a lot of use of Use Magic Device. Pickpocketing is of course not permitted except on quests.

 Out of the 11 skills which are somewhat unique to or favored by rogues, 5 are quest or role-play only (Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade, Pick Pocket), 4 are usable skills (Hide/Move Silently, UMD, Set Trap). That leaves 2 -- Open Lock, Disable Trap. A rogue, out and about on a typical day of adventuring, can only use 4/11 skills (except in role play with other players) unless there are locks and traps. 4 skills/11 total = 0.364, 3 schools of magic / 8 total = 0.375. A good roleplay class, but a little weak out adventuring.  I guess it all comes down to how heavily one weights sneak attack. If sneak attack is mostly what being a rogue is all about, then this really doesn't apply. And sneak attack in NWN is quite powerful. Not so much that I'd compare it alone to a wizard's spells, but still powerful.  

And lastly, it's important to know that there are in fact traps and locks all over the place that aren't in dungeons which are specifically placed to give rogues a means to apply their skills.  I can think of at least three places in Hlint alone.  And there are several others in towns and cities all over Layonara.

 This is interesting. I've encountered a few of these and went through this thought process, "Hey look, a locked door. I bet I could get through that. I wonder what's on the other side? I'll just pick this lock and " A loud voice breaks in right here and says, "Wait, this seems like a violation of server rules. Will I, the player, get in trouble for this? Is it worth the risk? No, not really." At this point, my character slinks away from the door. Maybe I'll give it a try now. Thanks for this tidbit.

[Acacea]

If its a player lock, you can't pick it anyway. If its not, then it is much more of an in-character decision. Should your character really be breaking and entering, or is it just the player? And is it broad daylight with people everywhere? That kind of thing.

(Not making assumptions for -your- character, just cringing inwardly in memory of official campaign murder and pillaging by the paladins and so forth. )

[Dorganath]

Alrighty, well, Spellcraft is a HUGE part of a wizard/sorc's skillset (as they really only have like 5 class skills, one of which is Heal) especially on quests.
  I would go so far as to say that most skills in the game for all classes do not reach their full bloom except on quests. The fact is that a CRPG does not really capture the essence and spirit of most skills except with GM intervention. And again...comparing a school of magic to a skill just isn't valid comparison.  
 

SquareKnot - 6/26/2006  5:20 PM This is interesting. I've encountered a few of these and went through this thought process, "Hey look, a locked door. I bet I could get through that. I wonder what's on the other side? I'll just pick this lock and " A loud voice breaks in right here and says, "Wait, this seems like a violation of server rules. Will I, the player, get in trouble for this? Is it worth the risk? No, not really." At this point, my character slinks away from the door. Maybe I'll give it a try now. Thanks for this tidbit.  

 I appreciate your tendancy toward caution regarding what is/is not against the rules.  The rule is simple though...and partly enforced by game mechanics. Any door with a conversation is probably not one you should attempt to enter without a key or an invitation...the Leilon Arms being an exception...as they belong to players.  At the same time, these doors cannot be picked by any rogue on the server, as the DCs are far too high.  However, if there is a door, that can be picked, perhaps it has a trap that can be disabled, these are there for rogues to practice and use their skills.  And as I said before, they are all over the place.
  So I guess the point here is that the perceived class imbalance is perhaps not as large as you think, or may not really exist at all.  One could argue that a fighter gets to use a lot more skills when not on a quest than anyone else. *shrugs*
  Balance is a big picture thing, not an "X vs. Y" thing.

[Niles09]

So far I know there is one trap in the ratman place. And that is only one in a whole dungeon. If you're talking about the house next to the bind stone, I was told it was banable to break in by a GM. Zan wouldnt do that anyway.
Im not talking about dungeons with one or two traps, but dungeons filled with traps. Anyone who have played, BG, NWN campaigns, Morrowind or Oblivion would now what I mean, and now it is only fair.

[ZeroVega]

Warning! It's late, this post IS too long, I have repeated things several times in it, it may be boring, you may simply want to skip it. Thank you.

Heh, there is a dungeon on East that has, I would say, one to two dozen traps on every level (no joking). It is a higher level place of course, which is, as you pointed out, what makes it difficult to play a rogue but they're there. Also you (SquareKnot) compare rogues to wizards which I simply cannot do. Wizards are a torrent of power. They can solo better than many classes, that is true. In a well rounded party though wizards are possibly the LEAST valuable characters (at least on Layonara).

Look at it like this... once you hit level 10, fighters are dishing out as much damage per round as a wizard is. They're holding off the enemy and holding the font line. Clerics heal, summon, cast killer spells and can melee better than every class (except perhaps Paladins). Bards have their song, their RP ability which can greatly liven up any adventure, their lore and spellcraft skills and spells (though not as many) which honestly covers the wizard. With the exception of some special spells that paralyze, instant death spells or damage spells (the latter of the two which are mostly useless in well rounded groups), all of the things that a wizard can do can be covered by a bard or cleric.

In contrast a rogue has something that no other class has, and that is invaluable skills and LOTS of them. If you went to the Dungeon of Scarabs without a rogue, I will tell you right now, you're probably not coming out. Only rangers can be better scouts than rogues (honestly) and most truly don't come close. No class can disable traps as well. Negotiators? If you don't have a bard it's gotta be a rogue. Pick lock? Well, I've seen it used on many occasions. You can't get into several dungeons without it (a few of them on West as well). And last, sneak attack is (in my opinion) the most powerful feat in NwN. With anywhere from three to four attacks per round and good positioning, no class can deal equivilent damage.

I marveled once at how powerful the spell was. It was back in B4 I believe and I was on a quest with Lue and Gotak (just naming them for the sake of the story). We were fighting a balor and when we had killed it I looked back at the log. Gotak had dealt very little damage by his standards (3-7), but Lue had dealt into the 20s. I was shocked and wondered how this happens so I asked the player how he got the magical weapons. He replied that it was a normal sling he was using but his sneak attack did so much damage that the DR of the Balor couldn't stop it all.

Let's face it. Wizards and Clerics are the most powerful solo classes in NwN, but in a group, no class (other than Cleric at best) is more valuable (in essence, they're a support class, like Bards). There are even places that it is simply physically impossible to get to without a rogue. It's not as if it'd be dangerous without a rogue, it just can't be gotten to... end of story.

[Marswipp]

'tis ture, each class has its advantages. If you want to know them, look in the NWN manual, or the D&D Player's Handbook.

[SquareKnot]

I would go so far as to say that most skills in the game for all classes do not reach their full bloom except on quests. The fact is that a CRPG does not really capture the essence and spirit of most skills except with GM intervention.

This is my point, and then I'll be quiet:
Most classes get their strength from something that is handled well by the NWN engine. Like say, spells or combat. Rogues, on the other hand, get their strength from skills (and sneak attack, a point I conceded early on). The NWN engine doesn't handle skills well. So as NWN2 Layo is designed, please consider giving lower level rogues a few more opportunities to use the skills that the engine does handle well (traps and locks), so they can feel useful to their parties and have a moment to shine.
End of point.

I'm sincerely sorry this got turned into a "this class is better than that class" or "this class is best for soloing" or "all classes have their place" or "there are too traps in Layonara" discussion.

[Niles09]

The rouges disable trap and open lock are core skills, and they can be handled by the system outside quests. That there are one dungeon that are filled with traps does not make up for all those who aint, and its just not ok that you need to raise in lvl to be there. So far everytime Ive brought up that for some of us, lvl 8-12 is extremly slow, everyone says I should join a powerplay server, cause its not about the xp. And again, I havent tried a roleplay other than this, where nearly every dungeon at least have a few traps.

[LordCove]

I know what Pyrean means. My character is almost Level 10, and doesnt even have cleave yet. The reason being, Sallaron was never meant to be a great fighter. I made that decision early in the game, and although I regret it, seeing other Lvl 10s annihilate things which might have annihilated me, I still wouldnt change it. Thats how my character should be.

As for the whole "problems with Layo" part. Bah.

For us, the server is free. Playing the game is free. Joining GM quests and such is free.
If anyone feels its difficult to get onto GM quests, they must be in a rare timezone. I havent been here long and have been on quite a few.
Ive never had a single problem with any GM ( except for Caliban throwing me to the back of the XP line. *grins*), and whenever Ive had a problem ingame theyve helped, sometimes in record-breaking 15seconds after the post time.

I used to have this idea of the GM team sat in an office in Bioware studios, churning out ideas and being paid. This of course, is not the case. I would like to thank each and everyone for the time they have put into Gm quests, simply so that people like me and you can have great adventures and fun times....

[Niles09]

LordCove - 6/27/2006  12:20 AM
As for the whole "problems with Layo" part. Bah.

For us, the server is free. Playing the game is free. Joining GM quests and such is free.
If anyone feels its difficult to get onto GM quests, they must be in a rare timezone. I havent been here long and have been on quite a few.
Ive never had a single problem with any GM ( except for Caliban throwing me to the back of the XP line. *grins*), and whenever Ive had a problem ingame theyve helped, sometimes in record-breaking 15seconds after the post time.

I used to have this idea of the GM team sat in an office in Bioware studios, churning out ideas and being paid. This of course, is not the case. I would like to thank each and everyone for the time they have put into Gm quests, simply so that people like me and you can have great adventures and fun times....

Which doesnt means we cant do our best to make this place better. One thing I know is, when Im making something, a drawing maybe, Im happy for feedback in the creationprocess so I can improve it, Im not a GM ofcourse, but so far I could understand this post was made for contructive critism that would help making the world better. In the end, its still completly up to the GM's.

[darkstorme]

I'd just like to raise my voice in favour of a few more surreptitious traps.  Surreptitious, and deadly, for preference.  The point was well made that most tanks can just walk through traps and take the hit without significant effect.  I'd like to see more Indiana Jones (or Tomb of Horrors) -style locations, where if someone goes in singing and kicking down doors in bright shiny armour (not naming any names here), they get hit by a Powerword Splat! trap.  Scything blades, poison darts, rooms that seal and slowly fill with water....

In addition to adding a little more by way of teeth to the underpowered trap system in NWN, it would give the Rogue/Scout a little more respect.

Regardless, this is just a personal suggestion.  I enjoy Layo immensely, with or without that addition.

[Nyralotep]

Traps like there were in Oriax would be nice.  It would make the rogue more valuable in party play and keep parties closer together when not on a quest.  Problem being with the stability of the server steadily increasing that once dis-armed they are gone till next reset.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Put a reset timer on the traps.  I really, really want to see more traps and locks in Layonara. Okay, so there's three or four traps/locks in Hlint. Sure. Okay, I'll go with that - I've only found two, but hey. There's the Hlint Crypts - great for the low-level fighter, cleric, paladin... Excellent places for anyone with turn undead to flex thier class' muscles. Hlint Sewers, good for those woodsy types with animal empathy. But...  In the Crypts, Rogues are useless. The whole undead not having vital areas thing. There are no traps, no locks, and nothing to Sneak Attack. They're about as useful as a Brownie Fighter with a focus in Archery.  In the sewers, well... You can Sneak Attack, but if you HIT anything, it dies. No need for it except against our lovely Ratman.  Seeing a small XP reward for disarming a trap would be nice, too. What good is "practice" if you're not learning anything? You get XP for killing something. You get gold for killing something. How different is that from recovering a trap and getting a little bit of XP, plus the trap?  Besides, let's see some more usefulness for Improved Evasion.