Points in Harloff

[jan]

IceDragonDuvessa - 6/23/2006  8:41 PM

jan - 6/23/2006  2:29 PM

I , as a "non-spellslinger" would like to see the classes more balanced.If that happens by weakening the "spellslingers"or by powering up the "non-spellslingers"is not something i'm qualified for to suggest realy.Ofcourse i'm biased towards the normal "non-spellslinger"way because i play one ;-)
The point is that players of "spellslinger"types can do more and therefor are NOT pushed into party and roleplay seems odd to me,i know a lot that do roleplay anyway,but also see a lot of them going out single and ravish a continent to get cnr's and gold unfortunatly.
I as a fighter have fleshed out the things i can get and the regoins i can handle on my own far too much i must admid,hence why i changed him from a adventuring type to a "benchwarmer"in Hlint.I changed my role from getting hard to get materials ,to one that shows new characters around and helping my friends as much as i can now. Because my character is polite and nice to be around( or i hope so) he makes easely contact with newcomers.Things will get different if you have a character that is a loner,it will get very frustrating and boring if you have one of those fast.

Despite playing something of a spellslinger myself I have noticed this inequity as well and in my working spice up the challenges across the servers I have also taken to making some more balanced fights to bring the spellslingers in with the fighters. One example of which is giving certain creatures an on hit banishment that will send off the summons if it hits them thus making a good PC fighter a necessity. I've also been trying to make balanced parties of enemies including spellcasters, fighters, group leaders, ranged attackers etc. though I started on East to give those that are coming up to epic levels and beyond a place to go that still offers XP and challenge so many have probably not yet seen this type of creature.

This is not to say that I am working to cripple the spellcasters either as a balanced party includes them as well, but with a mix of monster types and abilities in the spawns it will require just that... a balanced party.

 

Thank you very much Ice,a very enlighting and in my case hopefull answer  

[regnus]

"On the subject of class balance... I understand that magic-wielding characters are simply more powerful, but DMs SHOULD be the ultimate equalizing agent."
This can very easily foster some of the feelings that we are trying to avoid though.  By equalizing agent do you mean that GMs punish spellcasters so that they cannot do the things that other classes cannot?  That is a slippery slope.  

I truly believe that certain classes 'should' have more power than other classes.  But only in certain areas.  A spellcaster has strengths over a fighter.  But a fighter has strengths over a caster.  *shrugs*  It goes back to what Ice is trying to do with the spawns and why I like this place so much to begin with.  It takes a balanced party.  Sure people can solo certain places and some better than others.  The point is to get into a party though and go have fun.


"2) hasn't gotten some godlike DM-granted power for whatever reason"  
What do you mean by this?  I don't see everything obviously, but I have never seen a godlike DM-granted item anywhere.

3) isn't given the opportunity to be useful because there are epics or near-epics who can do anything and everything Pyyran can do, better.
So what if the epic can do it better.  Try anyway.  I cant tell you how many times there is a (near) epic on my quests and they have horrible rolls or on a tangent so far off that it isnt funny.  I know when I play Owen, he has no regard whatsoever of epic, near epic, or just spit out of the dragon's mouth.  People are people.  Some deserve and by their very nature and RP, get respect, but they are just people.  I always hate to see characters on my quests that defer to the epic because the *player* knows that they achieved a level over 20.  It becomes a game of follow the epic.  Epic does not mean that there is no one better or that they know everyting.  Speak up.  You cant help if you dont try.


Heh.  I tangented off topic and then kinda came back on there at the end.  I am in a post happy mood today though so watch out.

[Leanthar]

Well said Regnus.

[Acacea]

I again wonder why specific cases are praised instead of being discussed with the DM responsible until it comes time to discuss it publically on the forums.

[miltonyorkcastle]

weeeeeeeeeeee.........  I have just now caught up on all this craziness (I'm in a transition time in my life and so keeping up with Layo has been sporadic at best), and I have to agree with Force- my eyes hurt......  think I've been reading posts (from just two threads) for literally two hours straight.  I mean, actually reading... I normally just scan things....  anywho, just to touch on something Meizter mentioned about being around 'till the end of Layo.....

Yeah, old Milty's gonna be here in some form or fashion for as long as Layo exists.  I'll try my best to give back and help the community.  I chose to come to Layo, and I have chosen to stick with it, make it better, and have a good time in spite of everything that might possibly and actually have gone "wrong."  I could blabber on more, but that's really the heart of it.

[Ne'er]

Agreed, my eyes hurt. Lots of reading in there.

On broken classes, at the moment I haven't seen or heard much complaining about them. I have always wanted to play a spellsword, regardless if they are underpowered or not. I just don't have the time to get another character up to that point. As for the Skald, heh, I know a person who plays one pretty well. But he has never, not once complained about his skald abilities. Instead he's been grateful for the cool things it lets him do, and the fact that there are so few out there like his character. I firmly believe the idea that "You make your own good time." And if you are going to let a few problems with a class ruin that good time, so be it. But instead, look at the good things

[lonnarin]

If mages were so powerful, how come they slum around town all day waiting for a dwarf with a shield to log on?  On the flip-side, if Bjorn wants to go mining, he just marches out and does it.  Mages have to waste a feat on a pickaxe and swing with pitiful little girly arms, despite his temporary boosts, heheheh.  A dwarf in improved expertise with 2 dozen beasties all around him is more secure than a mage tiptoeing through kobolds with his invisibility about to fade.

[Nyralotep]

Agreed Lonnarin, and that is why Nobwocket makes sure to surround himself with fighters all the time.  But I have done the solo thing a long time ago and it gets old after a while so I do appreciate what Ice is doing.  It will make fighters also seek out the mages more as well as the opposite.

[blfarris]

with the past being the past ...

I will add this grain of sand to the lists of information of concerns

I do not play much on Layo because of real world events, but when I do find time, I truely feel like I will be retaliated against from one particular DM.  So in general, "if you are not having fun, do not play"

Now before someone thinks this is an attack it is not!
It is a simple observation ... that just maybe ... others feel the same way ...

One question though ..
are some people interchanging the terms of balance and favortism?
meaning are some people thinking the way people are treated is not balanced and leans toward favortism ... in their opinions?

just something to think about

[Nibor21]

What a shame Harloff wasn't there last night. Layo really showed herself as the best of PWs, with superbly written and run quests, great Rp and just soo much it was incredible.

Also hats off the code monkeys - No server crash. Outstanding

[Dorganath]

blfarris - 6/24/2006  8:39 AM    One question though .. are some people interchanging the terms of balance and favortism? meaning are some people thinking the way people are treated is not balanced and leans toward favortism ... in their opinions?  just something to think about

 I can't speak to how anyone else uses the term "balance". When the GM team uses the word "balance" however, it refers to trying to keep everything in the world fitting and working together as it should. Microscopically, it may look like something is over/underpowered, gives Group A a disproportionate advantage over Group B and so on. Macroscopically, however, we strive to have everything fit and make sense so that overall, the playing field is fairly level. We don't always get it right on the first try, or the second....or the third...and in some cases we're up against hard-coded bugs and features that we cannot always affect. But our goal when balancing is what I stated.
  I'm not going to comment on favoritism. Too often the word has different meanings depending on one's perspective and perceptions.

[Frelinder]

I would like to say a few things about class balance. If you wan't to be able to go soloing, then build an cleric or an spellsinger that have an strong summon and the world is yours. If you wan't to be the strongest hero in the party, then build an fighter based character.

As an example. Kilkenny is an lvl 20 cleric. He can go to most places on his own. I mean not many can do firesteep alone.. but he can. I don't take any pride in that.. its just what the Clerics/wizards/sorcs can do when they are lvl 20.

Boon is an lvl 14 fighter/wepon master. He woulden't last long on his own on Dregar. But when he is properly buffed from a cleric he is already in my opinion as strong as kilkenny are, although he is just lvl 14.

I can't speak for the two classes that are "known" to be broken. But instead of looking on how strong your class are when soloing. look how strong it is in a party fully buffed

I mean take an Fighter lvl 12/weaponmaster lvl 8 as an example. Thoose who have seen one fully buffed from a cleric and hasted in action can't be serious if they say that spellcasters are alot stronger then fighters

I have heard spellcaster characters complain as often as fighter based characters. Because they think that when they are in a party, all that they are good for is to buff the fighters and then haste them.. and then the fighters steal the show. So the coin always have an flip side.

in my eyes the classes are as well balanced as they can be. So its realy up to the players what kind of character they wan't to build.

[Varka]

Short thing on classes: (Just my view of it)
When And only if, maybe, possible... there will be a wipe. Team - try to balance the spelsingers as well (like the paladin). Just an idea. Reason:
When I hear the word fantasy I mostly think of "Willow" and "lord of the rings". How many spellsingers are there in those movies vs. fighters, archers etc.
My idea for the furtures is:
Dont balance the classes. Let mage,cleric be ... powerful spellsingers...but balance the number of them. Just an idea - which can only be done much much later..

New thing:
Classes that dont work probably...well - an idea...
Close those classes and give the ones playing them a chance to chance them because...
"Dont sell a pack which does not work. It only gives sad customers"....but dont skip it either - judt put it on the shelf and fix it when there is time.


PS: Dont see this as an attack - but a straight and short notice (point of view) before varka here goes out of the door and moves to "ROSKILDE FESTIVAL" to party for a weel!!!!!!!!!!!

Have fun and keep layo safe............Team and player................ GOOD JOB THERE.....AAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL OF YOU *closes the computer opens a bottle of ale - vacation*  

[ZeroVega]

I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.

[Philosopher]

ZeroVega - 6/26/2006  1:14 PM

I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.

Also druids!! Where are the tree-huggers when you need 'em!?

[Dorganath]

A few points on class balance:
  First, Layonara is not designed for soloing. Yes, it can be done in places, and one's class and level tends to determine what those places are. I personally disagree with the mindset of picking a spellcaster because of the summons and power at a given level. My own character is a sorc/fighter mix who doesn't use anything but a "shadow" summons, which really is not a summons at all and certainly not something that enables him to solo with little or no risk. But that's how I RP him.
  Layonara works best when parties are formed with a diversity of classes. I think this past weekend's plot finale quests were a perfect example of that. I'm not sure about the other groups, but for our group, the task would have been impossible without a mix of strong fighters and archers to deliver the damege, clerics to protect, heal and tend to the dead, rogues to handle traps, locks and other roguey things, and mages to strengthen the party and weaken the enemy.  
  In a sense, limiting one class or another to some arbitrary number doesn't necessarily make sense, as a good rounded party should have perhaps at least one mage, one cleric, one rogue, and several up-front battle types, be they fighters (or some variant). druids or monks. Having a archer along is good as well. Though we could always do what we have done with racial types and that is when too many people are submitting for them, we close them temporariy.
  Lastly, as we move to using NWN2 in the near future, the GM team is going to be taking a look at EVERYTHING and trying to design the game with playability and balance from level 1 through level 40, even though we won't be able to get past level 20 in the initial release of the game. We're trying to build this in from Day 1, rather than go back and try to fix it after the fact.

[ZeroVega]

That's why you rock Dorg.

[Niles09]

ZeroVega - 6/26/2006  2:14 AM

I actually think that's an interesting idea. If you restrict the number of wizards, sorcerers and even clerics (to a point cause I likes me clerics), it would probably force players to pick up new and inventive characters. Rogues perhaps? We don't have enough rogues... never have. Same with monks. Bards too to be honest.

I tried to keep up with this topic, the replies however was too great, so Im sorry if this already have been mentoined.

My char is half rogue, and the only advantage of that is sneak attack. Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts. And when I found these I had given up using skill points in those skills! Traps dont necessarily have to be advanced constructions, but could also be simple snares in any monsterfilled cave. Its only fair the rouges got something to do. Should a fighter class not be able to find one, they can just walk through, they are made to take damage anyway.

[Acacea]

Quests. Need rogues. Badly.

There are other places with traps also, and generally the mechanical benefit of the sneak attacks and extra skills are all anybody takes the rogue class for, anyway. Heh.

[FlameStrike]

Niles09 - 6/26/2006  7:07 PM



 Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." There are two dungeons I can come up with that have traps, Storans and Krandor Crypts.

 That's so not true... i'm afraid you'd need some more levels, and/or more high-level people to take you on a trip for some nasty dungeons out there.