Power builds.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I can actually raise my hand and say that I do. It's how I decide how to allocate my secondary skill points.

[memilies]

Polak76 - 12/14/2006  3:25 PM

This topic is always an interesting one.

Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling.  eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet.  Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that?  How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do.  From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.

No this is just going to far! I mean before you take two weapon fighting, it's useless to try to do it, and you will be no good in fighting at all. try it some against harmless enemies for role playing purposes, okay, but are you really going into a real fight (even with goblins) with weapons that simply will not hit?

Also a level 5 rogue has barely had a chance to pick a lock in layo, does that mean he's not allowed to put points in the skill? and then many skills don't work well until you get higher numbers, including hide, and a player only has to try and fail a few times to know that. in fact i think most people with hide skill practice it plenty so that they can know what to expect, it's one of those things you really don't want to have fail on you!

and also in the 2-weapon fighting case, why would you call that cheating when there are so many similar feats (the majority really i would say) like knockdown or rapid shot, that you couldn't practice if you wanted to? it's not like you can pretend to cleave until you have the feat, why say taking one that you can do (but in a way that is totally uneffective) has to be done that way?

finally, isn't there something to be said for someone training in their off hours? layo isn't supposed to represent all waking hours of your characters life and unless you're here 24/7 theres a lot of time unaccounted for, i would think a rogue would be practicing locks and a fighting would be using combat dummies or sparring or whatever...

honestly this kind of thing  is getting to me, there are so many ways for us to accuse each other of whatever, can we just sit back and enjoy the game a little? where does all this come from anyway, the need to tell everyone else they're doing it wrong?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Pyyran dual-wielded before he got Ambidex. And he still doesn't have Two-weapon. Nor will he ever.

The rest is representative of practice that can't easily be shown, like with KD. There's a lot to be said for RP.

[Talan Va'lash]

I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.

Regardless of topic, the word civil is the key in the phrase civil discussion. From all parties involved in the discussion.

Please keep this more in mind in the future.

[Tanman]

I think Polak76 has a point. I didn't think of it, but I am going to follow up on it now for my characters.  In regard to your question how can it be acted in the game...you are right it doesn't because of game mechanics. BUT that doesn't mean that you cannot reennact it outside the game. You could use your CDT.

Just like when one wants to dual class your character, one have to CDT it extensively or go through a CDQ, so to you *could* just document that down in your CDT...that went something like this:

[Dual Weilding example]
Today I had a hand at dual weilding a weapon. I found it streneous to say the least...having to concentrate using two blades at the same time. I tried positioning the blades correctly so that I can slice my opponents and block their blades effective. I think its high time that I find myself a tutor that I can do this.

Yes it maybe longwinded. Yes, it takes time...but this adds just something more to Layonara...to make it an enriched world.

memilies - 12/15/2006  3:40 PM

Polak76 - 12/14/2006  3:25 PM

This topic is always an interesting one.

Anyway rather than power building, how many characters on leveling-up actually pick feats or skills that they used prior to leveling.  eg, a rogue goes around hunting with a group of adventurers, levels up and takes hide, MS & Open Lock, yet at level 5 hasn't even used any of these skills yet.  Then to top it off he takes two weapon fighing at lvl 6 yet has used a bow since level 1.
How many of us do that?  How many of us actually develop to the environment?
I know alot of you will put your hand up and claim you do but I've only met a minority, an extreme minority that actually do.  From a point of view this can also be termed as powergaming.

No this is just going to far! I mean before you take two weapon fighting, it's useless to try to do it, and you will be no good in fighting at all. try it some against harmless enemies for role playing purposes, okay, but are you really going into a real fight (even with goblins) with weapons that simply will not hit?

Also a level 5 rogue has barely had a chance to pick a lock in layo, does that mean he's not allowed to put points in the skill? and then many skills don't work well until you get higher numbers, including hide, and a player only has to try and fail a few times to know that. in fact i think most people with hide skill practice it plenty so that they can know what to expect, it's one of those things you really don't want to have fail on you!

and also in the 2-weapon fighting case, why would you call that cheating when there are so many similar feats (the majority really i would say) like knockdown or rapid shot, that you couldn't practice if you wanted to? it's not like you can pretend to cleave until you have the feat, why say taking one that you can do (but in a way that is totally uneffective) has to be done that way?

[memilies]

I would never say don't do it, and if it makes it a better experience for you then i hope you do!

But there was the implication that if you don't role play towards the skills you will have later you are doing it wrong. It's the "you are doing it wrong" that I am objecting to..!

And I am objecting because while i like this world and most of the people i met there is a lot of "you are doing it wrong" over things that are vague, at best. i am not talking about the hard rules, i am talking about certain things that should be  matters of opinion, and this is a good example of that. how you play a cleric is another but i won't go back to that..

Remember some of us are still discovering along the way, and some don't know the game inside and out... I don't know what feats I will pick until I see the list and even then it's a coin toss usually... not every one has a "plan", not everyone making a choice you wouldn't do personally is "wrong"...

[Tanman]

Noted.

If you are interested in the list, then perhaps you might want to check out LORE.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Query

That has all the feats and everything loaded in there and you can search for any term in the database that relates to Layo

memilies - 12/15/2006  4:47 PM

I would never say don't do it, and if it makes it a better experience for you then i hope you do!

But there was the implication that if you don't role play towards the skills you will have later you are doing it wrong. It's the "you are doing it wrong" that I am objecting to..!

Remember some of us are still discovering along the way, and some don't know the game inside and out... I don't know what feats I will pick until I see the list and even then it's a coin toss usually... not every one has a "plan", not everyone making a choice you wouldn't do personally is "wrong"...

[Polak76]

Damn Memilies, don't get your knickers in a knot!  I could have picked any example but i chose that one.  You can do whatever you want.  Powergamers dont bother me.  I really don't care how anyone wants to play this game, nor do i really care about where you put your sklls.  I brought up a topic following a line that was created some 40 replies ago.  

I'm simply stating a fact that many here don't take skills and feats that compliment the RP but rather the power build.  Its rare that i hear someone say, "I've been negotiating alot these days, gonna place my skills in Persuade even though its a cross class skill."  Rather they take ranks in tumble even though they wear Full Plate (I always find that one hard to swallow but then that might just be me).

But overall if people take offense to these posts then I'm a little worried how serious they take this game.  And it is a Game.

So whether you pick feats on the spot or pre-plan your feat/skill progression to make a juggernaught of chaos (preferably a corathite if you're gonna), it makes no difference to me or anyone that I know well here.  This thread is simply for interest sake.

Anyway thats enough from me.
Polak76

[memilies]

Well in general Polak76, and this is just my opinion, but these forums need a lot more "This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it" and a lot less "here's what i see you doing and it's wrong".  Your point is great as a suggestion but you phrased it like everybody else should be doing it and those who aren't are doing wrong.  

And if my knickers are knotted it's because this is hardly the only time i've seen it (considering i've travelled with chmmr as a cleric quite a few times, i feel slightly targeted by this thread itself too). For me that kind of thing is souring me on the layonara experience, it's not always a particularly friendly or helpful place, there is a lot of snapping and backbiting. Well not a LOT, but enough.

Sorry if I snapped at you in particular..! Your point is a good one, actually, but like i said...  oh well

[JDiggity]

memilies - 12/14/2006  10:47 PM

considering i've travelled with chmmr as a cleric quite a few times, i feel slightly targeted by this thread itself too

Hehehe, I know the feeling (of being targeted).  Furthermore, the wizard I'm usually with has developed a new-found afinity for the infamous tensers.  ... *looks around innocently*

[LordCove]

I don't think Chnmmr was pointing at anybody in particular....just raising an opinion for discussion, as the thread says.

No one should be taking this personally....just "discuss it" and play nice.

I get a little discouraged when my Lvl 14 Ranger/Rogue is left standing, and a Lvl 13 Wizard Tenser's and storms ahead, slaughtering everything. But hey....what do I care.
Sall would rather be at the back anyway.

[Chnmmr]

I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.

Like I said, I am sorry I thought I could bring up a discussion about something I thought was very important for the welfare of a roleplay server.... guess not.  Nor was I targetting anyone, infact all the people so far who have said they feel 'targeted' should not be as they play their clerics very well in my eyes (whether I like the character or not IC is a different matter )

People should stop taking posts so personally and see what is trying to be said in them.  If my post -really- bothers you then maybe it struck a chord?  All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors (there is a reason they have d4 hp and poor attack progression) and if you are with a party of good clerics it shouldnt be a dream to expect at least 'some' healing to come from them, afterall good and neutral clerics can spontaneously convert to healing spells.  

Yes I know the Tensers spell is a standard spell, doesn't mean it's right.  I really do think the Tenser spell turns wizards into something they -shouldn't- be, frontliners.

And so again, its sad when a player can't make a suggestion in a simple honest way without seeing half the playerbase get insulted and staff showing disdain of the thread.  

This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it

That doesnt work in my experience.  People generally don't heed advice that makes them appear weaker, whatever server one plays on.

[ZeroVega]

I've decided to come out of my subterranian lair to make a post on this... don't get attached, finals aren't over until next week...

First off, from my experiance players come to Layonara with the intention of playing three main types of characters (or a mix of the three).

1. Powerful soloing characters. (The guys that can rip through anything and level themselves up.)
2. Support characters. (The people that YOU don't want to go anywhere without.)
3. The uber RP characters. (The ones who are good to have all the time. In fighting and out.)

I've fallen into all three at one point or another, especially with Tath. He started as a support character, then turned into more of a powerful solo character. I then started to get a bit lonely and bored and moved to uber RP. Then I realized that fighting and adventuring is part of RP which brought me to where I am now (An RP/Support character). Nearly full circle.

In my time here I've also gone from one extreme to another as far as my opinions on these types of players are concerned. First, I thought it was all about RPing and nothing else should really matter. Then I thought you absolutely needed a powerful character to make it here. (I had a crafting phase in there too, but we'll leave it out.) Then I thought that all the characters should be able to support each other and require each other for many things (so as to facilitate RP). Finally, I just gave up and figured that we really do need all these different kinds of characters in Layonara. As long as you RP them to the best of your abilities and respect Leanthar and the other players in the process (not powerleveling or making use of exploits) who cares what your build looks like?

Then, there the question of weird class combos. (Monk/Druid, Monk/Cleric, Fighter/Rogue ect.) In Layonara, it is pretty much anything goes. Does that mean you'll get everything approved? No. What it means is that there IS a chance. What can you do to increase your chances. Well, it's pretty simple. You need "cred." Someone who's totally new to this world will be less likely to be approved for an extremely special PrC than someone who's been here a year or two. A lot of people would yell, "That's not fair!" but if you look closely, you'll find it is. It's L's world and he wants to make sure the people who play here are capable of handling their positions and playing their characters with poise befitting the position.

It really isn't a snooty thing, it's a smart thing.

As for wizards and being overpowered with Tensers. I agreed with you at one point. Many months ago I benefitted from Tensers with my wizard and realized just how strong it was. I thought it was too strong. Once I stopped to really examine it though, I found that (for me) the spell was fine just how and where it was. Wizards control magic, they study it for years and years. Many wizards here keep long and elaborate journals recording their studies and findings. Their acumulation of knowledge is matched only by SOME other characters (bards and clerics namely), and since their power essentially comes from their knowledge, with years and years of near constant study packed into them, one would think it fitting that they be powerful.

Should wizards be frontliners, it gets back to everyone's personal opinion. Wizards are as powerful as the makers of DnD make them. Leanthar is trying to keep this world as close to PnP DnD as possible but there are restrictions (such as the massive amount of  Non-GM combat that goes on). Ultimately it's up to him, but I can only see voting toward getting rid of Tensers or lowering it's power a bit, if it will be replaced with Transmutation spells that have a progression to them.

Just my two pennies, a paperclip, a piece of string, and a ball of lint though. *snatches up the lint before jumping back onto his potatoe sack and sliding down the hole in the ground*

[LynnJuniper]

" All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors"

Tell that to the makers of original PnP Dungeons and Dragons who came up with the spell

Seriously it's not that great of a spell. Its downright annoying to have to prepare all of the spells that disappeared again.

In addition it doesn't last very long and you can't cast so it's not as if you're gaining the powers of a fighter and a mage, just one buffed fighter. For a short period of time. And then when you get back to normal you realize the spell wiped out half of your remaining ones.

[Rayenoir]

It's one thing to play a stereotypical character.  It's quite another to expect everyone to conform to that ideal.  Some wizards and sorcerers like the occasional chance to beat on things.  Tenser's Transformation exists, has benefits and limitations.  I don't see why this spell needs discussed anymore.

[Force_of_Will_]

ok its happened in the past and this is one of those posts that make me say "My eyes hurt now".
It all comes down to what way you like to play.As for Tenser's,I think they should take away the polymorph ability and sword from that spell.

[memilies]

I think I'm not going to read these forums any more, they drive me insane.

[Drizzlin]

Chnmmr - 12/15/2006  4:20 AM

I am not pleased with the way this thread was brought up nor with the way the original author returned to make sniping comments at the other posters.

Like I said, I am sorry I thought I could bring up a discussion about something I thought was very important for the welfare of a roleplay server.... guess not.  Nor was I targetting anyone, infact all the people so far who have said they feel 'targeted' should not be as they play their clerics very well in my eyes (whether I like the character or not IC is a different matter )

People should stop taking posts so personally and see what is trying to be said in them.  If my post -really- bothers you then maybe it struck a chord?  All I have been saying is that wizards should not be up front outfighting the warriors (there is a reason they have d4 hp and poor attack progression) and if you are with a party of good clerics it shouldnt be a dream to expect at least 'some' healing to come from them, afterall good and neutral clerics can spontaneously convert to healing spells.  

Yes I know the Tensers spell is a standard spell, doesn't mean it's right.  I really do think the Tenser spell turns wizards into something they -shouldn't- be, frontliners.

And so again, its sad when a player can't make a suggestion in a simple honest way without seeing half the playerbase get insulted and staff showing disdain of the thread.  

This is what I do and it works well for me, you should try it

That doesnt work in my experience.  People generally don't heed advice that makes them appear weaker, whatever server one plays on.

I have tried to avoid this topic for the most part, but the comments on Tensors just keeps getting to me. You need to play a wizard and level it to the higher levels. Tensors is worthless to a high level wizard/sorceror. At best it is flavor. If anything, the spell ploymorph is the one you should be griping about (if at all).

Troll form
23 str, +5 regen

Zombie
15/- damage reduction I believe

Cast flame shield and go into one of those forums and tell me about front line fighting. The "front" line fighting makes me laugh. So fighters should not be "back line" fighting with their bows? You fight how you can and what is best for the situation, and most importantly how your PC would.

[Eight-Bit]

I don't think this thread can go in any other direction but a flame war from here.

[Vyris]

Eight-Bit - 12/15/2006  2:13 PM

I don't think this thread can go in any other direction but a flame war from here.

If I keep agreeing with eight-bit the laws of the universe are going to crumble and that would be bad for everyone, make it stop!

Vyris