Question ( i know ..it gets boring :) )

[Weeblie]

Purely by rule, there are no multiclass which is completely impossible and outright denied. A paladin/monk/assassin is not denied by the rules and could in theory be allowed. However, the more exotic one tries to mix the classes, the greater chance is that they will only remain as "in theory".

Extensive is a very loose term... "no one, to date, has ever been close to even have a chance to qualify" is also falling under that extensive category... which could make it de facto impossible.

ps. This is no regard to the particular multiclass you wrote about. All multiclasses are handled on a case-on-case basis.

ps 2. This is only valid for multiclasses. If we take everything together... race + deity + classes + alignment, then one might stumble upon those "not allowed at all" situations.

[Mr. Erth]

Alright, I think I'm getting the picture Thanks for answering my question, everybody. I'll keep it in mind.

[lonnarin]

(be prepared for yet another long long opinionated essay... because work is boring)

I think in the cases of both the Undead Slayer/Pale Master and the Assassain/Paladin, those characters should be made to smite themselves into oblivion.  If a paladin truly wanted to become something extreme like an assassain, he should go through a total rebuild and have those paladin levels stripped for something more appropriate, like rogue or fighter/Blackguard.  Fallen Paladins should not get to retain their fear immunity and charisma bonuses granted by their gods... Faith and god gave them these abilities, and thus they should waver along with the faith.  You can say "oh well they can't use their abilities like spells and turning" but that's not enough IMO.  Because if given the chance, how many of our other characters would take the feat "Immunity: Fear" or "Charismatic Saving Throws"?  MOST of us would at least take one.

Other NWN class combos that make me cringe from their sheer illogic are the Dwarven Defender/Rogue (dirty sneak attacks, sneaking and lockpicking are NOT honorable, any way you slice it) Rogue/Paladin (even worse!), Aeridenites who take improved crit which only hurts the living, Druid/Wizards who use huge fire spells while in the woods (Ones who use smarter spells are ok), Dragon Disciple Pale Masters, and other such cheesefactor combos.

I am however sad that we have the restrictions on monk and druid multiclassing, since there are a whole lot of classic fantasy archetypes which fall under those classes being supported by multiclassing.  Take for example, the Monk/Sorcerer.  Brilliant!  Leap around hasted and fighting unarmed, shooting fireballs from your fists like a mystical martial arts wujen.  Then druid/cleric/undead hunter... how can you get any more aligned with nature than that?  You get to preach the word and live it too.  Druid/monk for those who want to specialize in animal-based martial arts like Leaping Tiger, Monkey Style, Praying Mantis, etc.  Druid/Rogue for truly sneaky and elusive druids that like to blend into the forrests and sneak attack somebody as the bunny from Monty Python.  A Monk/Dwarven Defender would be the ultimate sumo wrestler!  Big fat naked dwarf just sits there and squats, YOU CANT MOVE HIM!  

Technically you can make such combos, but you never get to train them in a manner that doesn't stunt their development, and effectively make them one class or the other while abandoning most of what they learned before.  For these reasons above, is why I have always yearned for the skill-based system being implimented in the next version.  It's just too restrictive to think of all these different skills in terms of classes, and we'll finally get to pick and choose how our character will be... unarmed fighting druids, Dragonball Z flamethrowing monks, martial artists that study dodging, unarmed and weaponfighting but don't care at all about spiritual development, shapeshifting assassains, etc.  

Meanwhile we unfortunately have to work with these chains D&D and Bioware put on us.  For example, MOST of the social skills are only in rogue and bard classes.  NWN actually has the audacity to suggest that if you have social skills, you are by virtue an unlawful person who sings and stabs people in the back. (my main pet peave with D&D!  "I have heavy armor so therefore I am a social pariah")

I do like the loving that Lucindite Paladins get when crossclassing freely with wizard classes, just it doesn't make much sense to me why they couldn't do so with sorceror classes.  If anything, a sorceror would be more devout than a wizard in my opinion; Lucinda gave them their powers, in a sense.  Sorcerors should above all feel that they are the champions of Lucinda, in my opinion.  She "chose" them.
-----------

On another note touched upon by Barion, I am of the firm personal belief that polytheism and practice of multiple religions should be supported.  There aren't that many true atheists in a world where prayers are answered before your very eyes, so Monotheism is somewhat moot in the sense of being the belief in just one.  Even our own gods warn us of other gods in the scripture, I'm almost certain there would be at least some mention of Pyrtechon in Rofirien's scriptures as being the enemy to be thwarted.  On that note, the gods themselves have vastly different portfolios which just don't make sense to pray to them for certain things.  You wouldn't pray to Dorand at sea unless you were specifically praying that the shipbuilder's knew their craft, but rather you'd pray to Mist or Katia to quell the storm or Shindaleria to steer the ocean currents.  Why would one pray to anyone other than Deliar when betting on a horserace?  (ok, maybe to Kitharian to gift the horse with the fleet of hoof, lol)  Further, the gods have a very concrete set of alliances between other faiths.  

Mechanically, when a cleric raises a follower of another god, his own god will treat them as if they were of the priests own faith if the two deities are the strongest of Allies.  (no xp loss for allied raising)  In that sense, there's almost a selection of heavenly and hellish "teams" of gods competing and conspiring against one another, in such a manner that many of the gods have a lot of goals in common... "heresy" wouldn't be an issue between them I think.  The "all-or-nothing" method of faith is too simplistic for me in a world of godly alliances.  One does not praise Thor with one breath and slander Odin with the other, any more that they would follow Rofirien's laws and not call upon Toran for protection of the law. In most of the major pantheons in history, there have been allied faiths and people who follow more than one god, priests of the gods being the only typical exception.  

So the common FAITHFUL follower would visit the temples of the gods he liked and avoid the ones he didn't.  This whole reflexive response "if you worship more than one, then you're obviously not devout enough to have a diety in your field so make it blank" is both historically inacurrate and illogical to me, and seems more in line with OOC western monotheistic thought than IC devotion.  Why would somebody attend temple to both Zeus and his wife Hera and a few other gods if he wasn't devoted to them all?  When gods like Prunilla and Deliar are married, wouldn't it be an insult to Deliar NOT to pray to his wife in homage to bless your family?  That's just my opinion of course, and the fact of the matter is that the gods have the power to be as jealous and fanatical as they choose to be.  

[Frelinder]

I have Actually been thinking of making an Monk/Dwarven defender

Would be such a cool Dude.. However due to Monks restriction I either must wait until epic lvls untill i can start taking DD lvls. Or if I settle whith just a few monk lvls and start taking DD before 20 But then I get too few Monk lvls cause of the fact I can't take any more of them later on... And he would be verry crippled... Bummer.

[Mr. Erth]

This whole reflexive response "if you worship more than one, then you're obviously not devout enough to have a diety in your field so make it blank" is both historically inacurrate and illogical to me, and seems more in line with OOC western monotheistic thought than IC devotion.

Regarding not being devout enough, I believe it is not in terms of faith but rather loyalty. Sure, you can easily pray to multiple gods (in fact, I think must ought to) but as a cleric/paladin or other devout, you should dedicate yourself completely to one god. By paying special respect and heed to a certain god, and praising him more than the others, you're not excluded from praying to the others, as long as it is only one you "pledge your allegiance" to. You would naturally gain a closer connection to the god in question, gaining all the benefits thereof, and would still be quite free to turn to the other gods when needed.

However, by claiming to be equally devout to to (or more) gods, you would lose the god's favor (he's no longer your favorite? Well, then you aren't his favorite either), you're no longer a devout of Toran's church, you're just a dude who prays to him. At least, IMHO.

Having a diety in your field should reflect your special relationship with that god, making him your god of choice/favorite god and you can't have more than one of those.

[ycleption]

I agree with a lot of what you say Lon... the big issue with monk multiclassing (from my perspective at least), is the massive bug with monks' unarmed attack bonus: A level 5 monk/15 fighter gets something like 18/15/12/9/6/3 Base attack bonus... which is just a bit unbalanced.

Now, that said... a monk of the Adamantine brotherhood/(deep) dwarven defender would be a really fun character :-)

[jan]

Sorry if I'm further derailing this thread, but I simply gotta know: Are there specific combinations of classes that aren't allowed? And I mean both in terms of rules and what DMs what actually approve.

From what i understand , EVERY power-build is at-least frowned upon.

Not sure what precicely are power-builds , but i recall taking 5 lvl's barbarian and then go fighter ( or another class ) was one .

Views on power-builds will vary from player to player i guess .

I asked about the double prestige class because i thought taking only minimal lvl's in a class to get to their unique class-feats and then switching to other classes was a power-build-concept as-well , but reading over the answers i guess that is allowed .

Just was browsing LORE and have another question :

Is LORE correct in saying FIGHTERS can take : overwhelming critical and devastating critical ?

[Mr. Erth]

Just was browsing LORE and have another question :

Is LORE correct in saying FIGHTERS can take : overwhelming critical and devastating critical ?

Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).

[Frelinder]

All classes are allowed to take Overwelming crit and Dev crit aslong as they meet the prerequisite for it. Problem is that Overwelming crit isn't that big of deal.. its more or less a speedbump for taking the precious Devestating Crit.

But since Dev crit is extremly powerful Layo have changed the prerequisite from 25 in base str to 30. This means You need to invest tons of feats in great strenght to get it and its simply not whorth it..

Atleast not in my opinion

[jan]

Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).

Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "


OVERWHELMING CRITICALS

Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:


Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical

Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon

[jan]

Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).

Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "
This is a " weaponmaster lvl 1 " feat and you need it to get "owerwhelming criticals " witch you need to take " devastating criticals "

OVERWHELMING CRITICALS

Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:


Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical

Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapons critical multiplier is x3, add +2d6 and if the multiplier is x4, add 3d6.

Use: Automatic

[s0ulz]

Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "
This is a " weaponmaster lvl 1 " feat and you need it to get "owerwhelming criticals " witch you need to take " devastating criticals "

OVERWHELMING CRITICALS

Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:


Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical

Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapons critical multiplier is x3, add +2d6 and if the multiplier is x4, add 3d6.

Use: Automatic

That's the difference between "Weapon of Choice" and "chosen weapon". The first regards to the WM 1st level special feat choice upon which all the WM bonuses apply to. The second just describes the weapon which was chosen to gain the bonuses of imp. critical and therefore adds the overwhelming damage as well.

[jan]

All classes are allowed to take Overwelming crit and Dev crit aslong as they meet the prerequisite for it. Problem is that Overwelming crit isn't that big of deal.. its more or less a speedbump for taking the precious Devestating Crit.

But since Dev crit is extremly powerful Layo have changed the prerequisite from 25 in base str to 30. This means You need to invest tons of feats in great strenght to get it and its simply not whorth it..

Atleast not in my opinion

Not sure when that was changed then , when i looked all that time back it still said it required 28 ( which i can get to ) and i haven't seen anything indicating it was changed

That , together with "chosen weapon " giving others the opportunity to take " overwhelming criticals " and with that opening up " devastating criticals " reduces a "weapon-master" to a simple fighter that is 3 points faster then a " normal " fighter at lvl 13 WM lvl's .

nice to hear the "weapon-master " has been reduced to just that , no wonder no-one takes more then 7 lvl's in it ( since you can afford to miss the last +1 on attacks if you can switch it for "epic damage reduction " ...a feat fighters get ...but weapon-masters don't )

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

You're wrong about that, Jan.

"Weapon of Choice" is the feat granted to WM at 1st level of the class. It provides no tangible benefit except acting as a prerequisite for other Weaponmaster class features. It represents the WM dedicating him or herself to mastry of the weapon.

One of Overwhelming Critical's prerequisites is Improved Critical. It is listed as "Improved Critical (Chosen Weapon)." This could also read as "Improved Critical (Any Melee Weapon)." (I'm not sure if it works with ranged weapons.)

A Weaponmaster's two greatest class features are Superior Weapon Focus and Ki Critical. In NWN, there's not much else worth having out of the class.

Overwhelming Critical has NEVER required a character to have levels in Weaponmaster.

[s0ulz]

Not sure when that was changed then , when i looked all that time back it still said it required 28 ( which i can get to ) and i haven't seen anything indicating it was changed

That , together with "chosen weapon " giving others the opportunity to take " overwhelming criticals " and with that opening up " devastating criticals " reduces a "weapon-master" to a simple fighter that is 3 points faster then a " normal " fighter at lvl 13 WM lvl's .

nice to hear the "weapon-master " has been reduced to just that , no wonder no-one takes more then 7 lvl's in it ( since you can afford to miss the last +1 on attacks if you can switch it for "epic damage reduction " ...a feat fighters get ...but weapon-masters don't )

As far as I know, in Layonara, ever since the epic levels were opened for everyone without the prerequisite of a ECDQ, the strength requirement for devastating critical has been 30 STR.

Getting the extra critical threat range in addition to the AB and damage from focusing on STR, gives a WM a big edge over the regular fighter, which is even better noticable when the target is prone to them.

Something odd about the Epic Damage Reduction bit, is that the LORE page specifies weapon masters get "Damage Reduction". I'm guessing this is a mistake, because weapon masters do get in fact [LORE]Epic Damage Reduction[/LORE] .

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

They can take it as a bonus feat if they meet the prerequisites, as I understand it. They don't get it free.

[s0ulz]

They can take it as a bonus feat if they meet the prerequisites, as I understand it. They don't get it free.

No class gets Epic Damage Reduction for free. The prerequisites must be met and the feats must be burned. I only intented to state that WM's can take Epic Damage Reduction as a bonus feat selection.

[Script Wrecked]

Something odd about the Epic Damage Reduction bit, is that the LORE page specifies weapon masters get "Damage Reduction". I'm guessing this is a mistake, because weapon masters do get in fact [LORE]Epic Damage Reduction[/LORE] .

This may be because, in the HotU manual (in my edition at least), the epic feat is refered to as "Damage Reduction".

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[s0ulz]

This may be because, in the HotU manual (in my edition at least), the epic feat is refered to as "Damage Reduction".

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

I'd chalk this one up to the regular error filled manuals of NWN. The link should be changed on LORE though, since it's clearly Epic Damage Reduction.

Thanks Script Wrecked

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

It's listed correctly everywhere I'm aware of. This was one of the fixes suggested by Pibemanden, and quickly implemented.

Edit: I'm apparently blind. Give me ten seconds and it's fixed.

Edit again: Aaaaand fixed, and documented.