The Dark Beast - Quest Feedback

[Makashi]

After running the quest last night, I thought I should probably write something up that all the people who have been involved in bits of this quest, or were participants last night can read over.

This series was more of a test run, I've run quite a few impromtus relating to this quest, on different people, different times to make sure I got a wide spread of the community involved.

I am really pleased with the communication that is going on in the forums relating to this, and I achieved what I planned on doing in getting people to communicate instead of taking the usual 'lets charge now and think about the consequences later' - Which a party found out very quickly, that this wouldn't work.

As for last night however, I was a little suprised at how many hints, both from players, and from myself during the quest, were ignored. Small details they may be, but are key to the quest.

I had a player state something along the lines to me a few days before the quest - 'I can't even hit them, this spawn is stupid' - After hearing that, I realised many players were ignoring information, this player was perfectly capable of dealing with the situation presented, but ignored the information they had received.

Just want to remind everyone that is involved in this, not to ignore information, I will state as I did last night to some one, a level 1 character would easily be able to deal with these creatures - with the right information, which a lot of you have already.

Again I want to thank those of you who have been contributing to discussions on the forum, and I hope it has been fun for you all to be a part of.

Makashi

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I was very little involved, but I enjoyed reading through the exchanges of information that was taking place between characters. Good work Makashi!

I can only repeat what was said about information passed during quests or discovered in research by the characters. If this information is neglected or forgotten - i.e. no notes are taken on the quests - many quests may be failed and deaths may be the result of it. Many learn this the hard way and unfortunately some never seem to learn, or are counting on others to keep track of the info.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Just want to say thanks for running a quest where the bad guys can't be defeated by outright bashing.

I think the reason so much info is being ignored is that people are used to being able to "win" by straight-up combat, and when they can't, they they think the DM is being overbearing or something.

It's quests like these that inspire and teach novice questers to use their heads and think beyond sword swinging and spell slinging. That is, if they stick with it, make the choice to ~think~ and don't just say, "This is stupid." and leave.

(and this coming from a guy who loves to bash the  out of things)

[Interia_Discordius]

RP killing it instead of outright bashing...
It opens up a ton of choices though, and I think a lot of us knew it had to be RP killed, but the choices themselves got a touch overwhelming.

Maybe next time the group will have a better chance

[LynnJuniper]

Debating weather or not to make a post in this thread in order to avoid a total beat down...

I think the quest went well once people realised out right bashing wasn't going to get it done, I liked that everyone had bits of the information and really liked how the whole community came together on this at the crossroads to talk about it.

What I'm going to say is unpopular now, so Im prepared for the adverse opinions:

If a GM says : This is the number of people I'm going to take because this is the number I can handle and this is the number that can work well on the quest without it being overbearing.

Please...please stick to that number.

I know it really really stinks to resort to rolls and turn people away , and then that scheduling comes into play but I think this should be stuck to.

That said, I think the level requirements should've been stuck to as well, but I brought Rhynn there anyway therefore was probably as much in the wrong as I deem myself to be, atleast for that.

[Joyrock]

I like the quest, and found the simple way to defeat the monster, after asking a few questions IG about them  to others that have done battle with them.

great quest,  rather enjoy how you handle it, and you use the right amount of force with them, going easy on them at first then going all out forcing them to put pride aside and use there heads.

[Lynn1020]

If a GM says : This is the number of people I'm going to take because this is the number I can handle and this is the number that can work well on the quest without it being overbearing.

Please...please stick to that number.

I know it really really stinks to resort to rolls and turn people away , and then that scheduling comes into play but I think this should be stuck to.

That said, I think the level requirements should've been stuck to as well, but I brought Rhynn there anyway therefore was probably as much in the wrong as I deem myself to be, atleast for that.

I agree.  That's one reason Randi found a reason to leave.  

[Drizzlin]

At first I brought my level 8, because the quest said recommended levels, 8 to 12. I know it then said all levels will be welcome, but when I saw a level 35 and level 20+ pcs there, I decided to log. I didn't want to just follow around some epic pc doing what they said to do without being given any input, when the quest "suggested" levels 8 to 12. Nor did I want to encounter creatures scaled up for a level 20+ on a quest suggested for levels 8 to 12. On that same token I didn't want a level 8 to 12 encounter to be wiped out with the snap of the fingers of some level 20+.

The quest also said RP mixed in with a LOT of bashy. When we as players read that, we think this is a quest that is going to have a lot of fighting. We wonder what level range the encounters will be. When you read recommended levels on a quest description, you expect to see creatures and encounters scaled for levels 8 to 12. I know you have said with proper RP, the creatures can be defeated by a level 1. We as players didn't know that, nor should that even matter. On that note, if it were that easy, then why was there a level recommendation at all?

I can understand if you allow a level 6 or a level 15 because they are still close to the recommended levels, but to allow/have level 20+ at a recommended level 8 to 12 is far from the curve and why I logged.

Another note, some people didn't get there half an hour early to listen to Ozy give the quest details. The quest description said for pcs to meet somewhere before the quest. It didn't mention that prior to the start of the quest, all the secrets of the quest were going to be given out by a PC. The time before a DM quest starts is when you get to know the pcs, but it is also a great time to go afk and get what you need done before the quest. A lot of the people did go afk to prepare to be able to sit at their PCs for 2+ hours, while waiting for the DM.

When you have 18 people it is hard to listen to the rp of every person. I for one love Ozy's PC, but the elf can just talk and talk and talk. After having been on this server for over 3 years and listening to his pc, you don't know what to believe or not (nothing personal Ozy). When I heard him talking, I took it for his RP and didn't "write" things down. After all I thought this was a DM quest, and didn't read any mention of "all the details will be coming from a PC before the DM gets there, before the DM quest starts" Is that may fault? Maybe, I am not arguing that. I am telling you why I, along with a few others, did not receive the information or retain it.

Now please do not take this post as me slamming you, because I am not in ANY way. I am trying to explain why we, as players were confused, unorganized, and didn't hear or write down these secrets. I of course was not on the quest because I logged, but I was watching it from my wife's PC.  I kept trying to ask her what was going on and she would say "I don't even have a clue, I can't keep up with the scrolling chat, because there are too many people here talking at once".

I have the utmost respect for DMs and the work you do. I know it is a thankless job, but you have all the thanks in the world that I can give. This post is meant to be constructive to your statements and not a "finger pointer". I don't personally think it sounds that way, but I know that meaning and intent can be lost from transition of mouth to pen and paper.

EDIT: Sorry for the Edits, but I tried to cut and paste this, and we all know how well that works. =P

[Pen N Popper]

Good feedback so far, I think.  Not sure how many brief miniquests Makashi ran prior to the calendar one, but Bumblebee was bombarded with PCs querying him and the forum thread was hopping!  Good stuff!

I really like the way Makashi has taken the time to debrief us, the players, on how things ran and can run.  These big chunks of electronics between us can obfuscate even trivial details.  

When I make suggestions about "all inclusive" quests and things to keep people interested in logging in, this quest fits that exactly.  There were holes everywhere, bloody footprints, PCs spreading rumors, clues left and shared, on and on.

Keep up the great work!!

[AeonBlues]

Some points....

1. Ozy misinformed us by stating that an axe could bring these things down.  I think everyone in the group has learned that weapons are not the answer, and being very still is a good one.

2. With such a large group, it is hard to communicate well and work as a group.  The size of this group is directly responsible to why characters are not feeling heard, and things seem to be moving slow. It takes years of practice and training for a large and leaderless group to work efficiently.  I must say though that before we ended the session, everyone in the party learned a lot about what we are facing. This last episode was very valuable for that reason.  

3. Right or wrong, we need to make decisions and stick by them.  The larger the group, the more we need strong leaders that can make decision that keep everyone participatory.  Often epic characters will take actions that only pertain to them, as they do not want to be responsible for everyone dieing.  We need to decide our best course of action, and do it.

4 Given that these things see with ears, we need to identify everyone that has a move silently skill.  This was not done.  We talked about the impossibility of making everyone silent with spell, but we never identified all the characters that have decent stealth skills.  Would it be acceptable for characters to bring scrolls that cast silence? Could they be acquired in game from a merchant PC during the quest?

AeonBlues

[Makashi]

In regards to the first point, I never mentioned this, nor remember hearing it myself, so not sure where that came from really!

I won't be making merchants available to buy these scrolls, you'll have to find a PC that can make them, or find them in loot drops etc.

Also please be careful about the very first thing you've mentioned under point 4, thats not entirely true

[stragen]

I really enjoyed the impromptus.  So much so that I asked Makashi to do a CDQ for my character.

The Shieldbreakers, were very involved in the impromtus leading to the quest.   Having countered the beasts on 3 separate times.  As well as the first meeting with the hunter.   I took time to spread information/rumours and fear.  Including a nice story-telling session at the Storm-Quest. However the actual quest session we couldn't make.

As I saw the level requirements for the quest I didn't have any of my higher level PCs involved with this quest directly.  I did have one offer advice on demon hunting.

I think we as a player base should avoid crashing level requirements and party sizes.  Or a PM to the GM can also work.

One of a reason the impromptus worked so well is that the parties were already formed, and had a reason to be where they where, before the dark-beast appeared.  They are likely to be following the +-5 level rule.  So when the quest happens, everyone can contribute.

With a planned quest session you will have a party that is formed by a mix of characters, who may not cooperate.  

I think this whole series has been really good for the Layo community.  It adds athomsphere, fear of the dark, and good talking points and gossip.

PS:  I don't think its over yet!

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

Drizzlen I’d advise you to walk up to your manager at work, chew him out, and then say 'no offence’ or 'nothing personal’. This will cost you, your job however it will teach you that inane prattle will not work in reality.

I did not discuss anything pertinent at all about the quest, beyond one detail that was repeated once the Game Master said start. The questions asked were of other relevance’s and on other subjects, however if you cannot be bothered to use your head even a little. I cannot be bothered to make more then the suggestion to 'ask around’ before throwing a stone in my direction.

As for not always trusting what Ozy says, I say that’s probably the smartest thing you can do. I honestly hear that comment a lot, and I’m always agreeing with it. The reasons for it are unfortunately mostly out of character, and not complementary to the team. I will leave it at that, complain to them if he’s giving bad answers not to me I’m just a parrot.

Aeon for that I do apologize. I  did not think the DM was going to spawn demi-gods upon you. Much less ones possibly marked invincible/plot, had I known that then I’d of informed you what you were dealing with as monsters as dangerous as Bloodstone was. I expected with the low level quest mention, and that it was highly bash oriented that in fact an axe to the head would work.

Now if you don’t mind I need to determine if I came down a little harder then intended on Drizzlen for irritating me.

[AeonBlues]

Also please be careful about the very first thing you've mentioned under point 4, thats not entirely true

Well hmm.  I don't think they sense magic directly as they ignored a lot of us that were not moving but had magics cast on us.  Perhaps then they are also attracted to movement?  Basically we need a good plan to bypass a vast horde of them.  You hinted Makashi that we needed to enter the hole while it was still daylight...  

AeonBlues

[hawklen]

Postive magic and healing was mentioned as a way of damaging said creatures, as my PC pointed out a few times to deaf ears. But hey, it was fun!

[Drizzlin]

Drizzlen I

[Drizzlin]

Drizzlen I'd advise you to walk up to your manager at work, chew him out, and then say 'no offence' or 'nothing personal'. This will cost you, your job however it will teach you that inane prattle will not work in reality.

Now if you don't mind I need to determine if I came down a little harder then intended on Drizzlen for irritating me.

Find a better job is my advise to you. I in NO way said anything offensive, nor did I put anyone down. If you work for a company that can not listen to their employees then I advise you to seek another career, they don't care about you in the first place. I am in the medical field. When something is wrong I tell them, and it has NEVER cost me my job. I have always excelled in my work places, from today to back when I was in the Military. In fact last week I went to my boss and suggested moving the medical bio-waste containers and making sure that everyone was told not to throw anything in them outside of bio waste. While working, people were sometimes placing other things in the containers, which in the long run costs the company more money. This is due to the hosptial having to pay more to dipose of bio wastes vs regular trash. My boss said "you are right" and they are moved now. I didn't get fired for tell him there is a better way.

It is all about your appoarch. Unfortunately on a forum like this, demeanor and emotions can be lost in transit from a person to writting. What you consider inanne prattle is probably why you can't approach your boss, or maybe you are that boss that won't listen to anyone and know it all? What you call innate prattle is also a reason why sexual harrasiment and the under paying of women and minorities still exists in the work force. Because sadly, some people see it as innate prattle when you question or make suggestions, even if they are in a constructive, well thoughout way.

Thankfully in reality, like here on Layonara, we don't have those problems. The staff listen to us, as long as we are constructive and treat them with the respect they deserve. The day that stops to exist here, will be the day I will take my own advise. I actually love he suggestion forums and how easily you can approach the staff here. Although when L says my name, I do almost pee myself!! Just like Richard Prior said he use to do when his father said "RICHARD"!!

I don't think you came down hard on me, nor would it bother me if you do. I am not offended by your response. If I in some way offended you, them i'm sorry. I never meant to and even stated that from the start. I know some people are just sensitive and get their feelings hurt easily, for various reasons. After all I am in trying to become a Psychiatrist and work with/study people who have a hard time communicating.

EDIT: I thought about this after I wrote it. This of course applies in America. I'm not sure if you are in the US, and I acknowledge things are far different in the work force in other countries. Take Japan for example. Questioning your boss there, could get you fired in a heart beat =P

[Makashi]

Right - next quest I do then maybe I just won't give out any information for PCs.

Seeing as it's 'not expected for a PC to give out information'. I will just do a whole huge copy and paste job at the beginning of a quest, which I think is ridiculous, If I'm not able to give information to PCs to pass along, this is a pointless series, and is going completely against what I intended originally.

As for why was there a suggested level. Because that is what I suggested suprisingly, it was not a requirement in anyway - Now. After a lot of discussions in other parts of the forums, I took off level requirements, as epics complained about not having enough quests, or low levels, etc.

Doesn't seem to matter when I run a quest, there are always a few unhappy players, and I'm sorry to those players, for not being able to enjoy themselves as most the others do.

If there is not improvement from the behaviour of players OOC towards me next quest, I'm going to call it a day on layonara.

Thank you.

[Drizzlin]

Well again I appologise Mak. I did not go on the quest, so I can't speak for the quest. I have not been on one of your quests and look forward to making one. I think all DMs sacrafice a great deal of their own free time and I'm sorry if in anyway you took my post as being rude.

When we as players go to the calender, we look for discriptions of the quests, level limits, party size, and what the quest is about. How else are we suppose to find a quest suited for our pcs both in intrest and power level?

Having a PC give the info before the quest starts is out of the normal, while completely fine, and we didn't expect it. Different is a good thing, but we over looked it as a whole in this case. Perhaps if the quest said an ooc discription that "// info about the quest will be given out by a PC", we would have known. As well the PC that gave the info did so and didn't go on the quest. That too kind of threw us off too.

Please don't let the few unhappy people ruin it for everyone. Your time and hard work is appreciated by so many more, that the few should hardly matter.

[Makashi]

No need to appologise really, but anyway, due to what people have been saying:

- My quests will now be capped to a maximum of 10 players, selected first by sign ups, then by rolls.

- I'm going to restrict the levels to the level range from now on, no exceptions, if you are not within the range, don't bother turning up.

- If people proceed to tell me things are being run unfairly, they will be allowed to leave the session, but I don't really want them attending any more I run. I have ran things fairly, the mistakes made have not been made on my part.

Think this about clears up most the issues people had with the last session, though I dislike having to do any of the above points, it seems this is what needs to be done.