This is gotta stop...

[FlameStrike]

Think about this, if Layo, no, more importantly, the game engine that makes NwN and consequently, Layonara, has limitations, in this case, i will simply refer as to lag, heavy lag that is caused whenever a large quantity of PC's or NPC's are in a certain area.

 Now, on the luring part and the reality thing.

 If the game limitations weren't as harsh, i suppose there would be a more intense level of reality ingame, in this case, town guards that would defend town whenever someone lured a monster into it, or even close the gates and let you die by the hand of what you provoked... however, can you imagine the guard's reactions shortly once they defeat the monster? They wouldn't sure be happy to have their lives put at risk just because someone lured something they couldn't handle and risk innocent lives by doing that.

 I don't mean to offend you in any way, simply take this as an example, since there are quite many possibilities regarding this issue.

[Dorganath]

Everyone please try not to read too much tone into posts.  This is the Internet, not a face-to-face meeting.
  On the issue of dragging monsters back to town, the official line is don't do it.  We understand that mistakes happen, that people stray into places that maybe they shouldn't have gone, but the simple fact of the matter is this:
  If you (and by "you" I mean a non-specific character) find yourself face-to-face with creatures that are beyond your ability to defeat, it's natural to run.  However, in this case, it is only your character that is at risk.  If you drag monsters back to town (or area transitions or whatever) you are now putting other characters at risk.  There are people on the other sides of those characters, and none of them want their characters to die because someone stirred up a nest of ogres.  I could also add that in towns there are frequently oxen laden with valuable CNR and now also horses, which are expensive. A pattern of such behavior is certainly indicative of griefing (against server rules) and just a general apathy for your fellow players in the community.  In terms of alignment, intentionally putting others at risk to save your own life is probably Evil.  All the Evil characters who posted in this thread please raise your hands....*waits* Right....so please don't make a habit of it.
  We understand that mistakes happen, but we also ask that you as players exhibit some level of personal responsibility and try to notify someone if you have inadvertenly led monsters to places they shouldn't be.  Let a GM know in-game.  Come to the forums and post an IC warning.  Park your character on the other side of the AT and warn travellers of the dangers beyond...
  Above all, have some respect for the rest of the players in the community.

[Glassman]

Okay, in light of the can of worms I seem to have opened, I appologise to Gulnyr. I realise now that the answer to my question wasnt a personal attack on me aimed to make me look stupid. I agree that some people will do whatever it takes to keep their beloved characters alive on Layonara just as alot would in a PnP game, even at great cost to other palyers. I personally would never lead monsters to any settlement, and have frequently bitten the bullet when a hoarde of zombies from The Broken Forest have spotted Lan and moved to attack. I will say though, in a world where peoples characters can get married, and may even ask that their characters have children, the lines between reality and fantasy seem to get blurred. People will always become emotionally attached to characters who live out their fantasies and are damn good at living them too. Its all about escapism, and a break from the norm. I didn't mean to cause any bad feeling, in much the same way as Gulnyr no doubt thought no bad feeling would be caused by the answer he gave.

The problem with Layonara, as I see it is that it is an addictive game world that is a testament to the hours and and dedication of its team of GM's, programmers, and the players. People will always try to keep their characters alive in such a place, especially if it brings them such happiness, and the more the world is updated, and becomes closer to real life, the harder it will become for these server rules to be implemented. I may be wrong, but I dont think so. Its just the way that I believe society is heading. The more real games become, the more people will try to loose themselves in them. Heh....roll on The Matrix

[Doc-Holiday]

I am very sorry Glassman, it is never my intention to make an idiot of anyone but myself. Your concern is a very real and important and I'm sorry I didn't convey proper respect for that as I feel my comments may not have helped in this particular case.

[jjkolb]

CAUTION: Thread is about to make a sharp curve ahead!  I try to use the word 'one' instead of 'you'.  For example:
 

Gulnyr - 1/3/2006 9:18 AM About two steps before one causes other people problems.
  If one is exploring an area, one knows one might run into something one can't handle, so it's one's responsibility, and it's one's own fault. One should face the consequences. When one drags creatures back to town, or leaves them in high-traffic areas, one has now caused problems for other people.

  That way it sounds a lot less harsh and doesn't imply finger-pointing (though it sounds kind of goofy).

[Acacea]

The rephrase leaves much to be desired, as one can hardly emphasize personal responsibility with a generic pronoun essentially meaning "anyone."

"...One might compare it to throwing an 'amorphous dart' at something and seeing it splat and slide ineffectually to the floor. Sentences often need a pointy end in order to stick properly into the targeted object, unless one desires to resort to the clingy nicenesses that are those annoying sucker cups that repeatedly fall off of the glass, which would be a completely different story and would still fail to make any impact on the reader due to its very nature as an Annoying Sucker Cup Sentence..."

"...The problem with sharp darts and sharp sentences (if indeed it is really a problem) is that it is on the reader's shoulders to not, without cause, volunteer themselves as targets. One would think that this wouldn't be a problem--however, if people responded to rockskipping in the same manner that they so often respond to the written word, one might expect to have another person race across an area simply to throw himself into the path of the water-bound stone, and then indignantly ask why you chose to strike him with it. Rather, we should ask, 'Sir, why do you stand in the way of my stone?'..."


This has been an excerpt from the upcoming instructional volume, The World Needs More Pointy Objects, brought to you by someone with far too much time on her hands.


Edit, just because I don't really want it to be a one vs. you debate... "Yes! Don't Lure 'em and Leave 'em, it's cruel to the monsters (henceforth referred to as the victims) and to the adventurers that the victims attach themselves to on the rebound, in their violent quest for re-affirmation of selves."

[Diamondedge]

I've been instructed by my superiors to not take offense to Acacea's post, as well to not be a human buttocks about the entire matter. Which, naturally is simply quite impossible for someone of my vastly minute caliber to even dream of attempting. As such...


*Acacea, where in the heck do you get off, casting stones at everyone's glass house like that? It isn't enough that you have to moan and complain when someone of obvious superfluous amounts of intelligence makes him/herself present, but you go so far as to attempt to defend your offense-bringing comments by saying, quite basically, that "you shouldn't have existed in the first place, so that I wouldn't have to insult you in such a manner". Well, dear, it is things like this, people like you, that make the world the murky marshland of poverty and fear that it is. For shame, Acacea, for shame.


*- Not to be taken with any bit of seriousness in implied tone: Merely a jest to provoke Acacea's ire, and very likely ineffectual and a failed attempt, all in all. I love you all, especially Acacea. *patpat*

[Dorganath]

Alright....
  One more visit from the Grammar/Spelling/Tone-of-Voice police and this thread gets locked.
  *sighs*

[Diamondedge]

I'd like to play the Devil's Advocate card now, and point out that...

A) Yes, it's just a game. Meaning that you shouldn't be so worried about your character dying if he gets in a jam. Similarily, however, those of you that feel this way also need to take what you dish out and realize that yes, it's just a game, and you shouldn't get too bent out of shape when someone drags a few spawns to town. If your ox dies and your heart rate increases tenfold and you find it hard to breathe, it may very well be time to take a step away from the computer for a few hours to look over your life and try and figure out what it is you're doing wrong.

B) Again with the 'It's just a game' idea: Everything you've already spent time doing can be done again. You die and get your 10th death token? Oh no, make a new character! It isn't the end of the world. Your ox died so you lost a crap load of mithral and want to exact vengeance? Go for MORE mithral! Make a quest out of it for crying out loud. Vengeance against whatever-guards-the-mithral-veins. Or, if you see the monsters in town, decide that they need to be wiped out and gather a group of hearty adventurers together to eradicate them. Even if you're level 5 and a bunch of giants meant for level 12 parties come to town, you can still get a bunch of level 12+'s together to wipe them out. Make an adventure out of it, since that's what characters are supposed to be: Adventurers. Not commoners, not peasants, not people that sit on benches and complain about how "those bloody orcs are in town again". Go collect some orc tusks or something.

C) You're supposed to have fun. So... shrug off the anger and be happy and stuff and have a good time. Don't get bent out of shape for this kind of thing. It really isn't as annoying as you say it is, and if it is, you have your personal priorities a little bit askew. Like I said, take something of a break.


C'mon guys, it's just a game, you shouldn't let it get you down. If your character gets killed by a couple stray ogres, well, that's too bad. Learn something from it and move on. (Example: If someone else can outrun the ogres, chances are you can probably evade 'em too!)

That's all.

Diamondedge, over and out.

*ksht*

[ThrainSil]

I try to see these "misplaced" creatures as wandering monster encounters.  As Diamonedge sayed RP it into a fun encounter. Just part of the hazards of travelling. Yes I hate dying and getting DTs but always knowing where all the monsters are can get a bit repetative.

While there are many fun low stress things to do in the game, I find those difficult fights where I think I might die to be the heart thumping thing that makes an online game fun when you cant go back to an old save game. Sure I cuss when I die and the other living things in my house look at me oddly but the risk factor is one of the great thrills of the game.  If Layo had unlimited death with no serious consequences I would be bored.  And yes i've run screaming from monsters in the game because I did not want to die.

[Victor]

Layonara is a role-playing server.  Standing their ground and fighting a hopeless battle might be in character for some, but this is not true of everyone.  The complaint here seems to revolve around game mechanics.  Characters flee from monsters, and those monsters either pursue those characters into towns causing havok or lie in ambush and strike the first unfortunate soul to wander back into their domain.

One has to admit, this is not unexpected behaviour for monsters.

No one is surprised that monsters chase characters.  People are simply surprised to find themselves killed when walking down the road.  People are simply shocked to find their livestock being slaughtered in the town. However, these things are not just the result of an undesirable game mechanic, they are the result of role-playing.  We're not talking about people who are deliberately luring monsters into town in order to plunder their guard slain corpses or harass other players.  We're talking about explorers and travelers who have either blundered into a bad situation or "bitten off more than they could chew".  It may be very natural for their character to flee like cowards or run screaming for help.

Rather than insisting that everyone altruisticly choose death to avoid inconvieniencing other players, I suggest everyone role-play and alter their behaviour accordingly.  Stables exist for a reason; they keep untended animals from being slaughtered by wild creatures.  Failure to take precautions when traveling can lead to disaster, even on the most well known stretch of road.  These are uncertain times, and death might be lurking around the corner.  You will likely get jumped sooner or later, and while no hero wants his 10th death token while out on a stroll, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  All you can do is file an appeal with the gods or better yet, the disputes and grievances forum.

As far as the offenders are concerned, players shouldn't hesitate to take them to task in game if it reflects how their characters feel.  "What were you thinking! You could have gotten children killed, bringing those monsters here!"  In some cases, a little DM intervention might be needed, either in the form of local justice or an alignment penalty.  Rogues could be locked up for their crimes, but paladins and the like should wrestle with their own consciences, risking the loss of their class and abilities when they fail to follow their codes and ideals.

All told, I don't want anyone to sacrifice role-playing for the sake of game mechanics.  I intend to roll with the punches, whether from lag, server crash, or inconsiderate adventurers who insist on getting me killed along with them.  I'd rather take one for the team of account of someone else role-playing their character, than tell another player to die out of character just to avoid inconvieniencing me.

[Dorganath]

These are all good points, and yes...most people would run from a hopeless fight.
  And yes...we're up against game mechanics....the most important one being this:
  When monsters are parked on the other side of an Area Transition, travellers have absolutely no chance of defending themselves as they move from one area to the next.  They are automatically flat-footed, and the creatures can typically get 2-3 free attacks before your load screen ever finishes.  This little reality of the game is one we cannot overcome, and it is one that cannot be easily defended against, nor can it be avoided or even RPed.  The analogy is you're walking down a road in a meadow, your vision goes black for 5-10 seconds and then you're in the forest. That simply does not happen in reality. And if upon appearing in that forest you find yourself surrounded and immediately attacked by some angry/hungry creatures, you might think to yourself, "Gee, I should have seen them coming..." and you should have...only you can't, because NWN mechanics does not allow it.
  Areas are constructed and encounters are placed to allow people to transition safely from one area to the next because of this very issue.
  RP the dangers: Yes.  Expect the unexpected: Yes.
  But besides all these things...besides the game mechanics...this fact still remains:
  Making a practice of luring monsters to ATs and/or towns in order that other players and NPCs can kill what you cannot is contrary to server rules and borders strongly on griefing.
  To come running back to town, a town populated with hundreds or thousands of common people, many of whom are likely children, elderly or otherwise not proficient enough to defend themselves, and expecting that populace to defend you as the hordes of goblins/orc/ogres/whatever stream in behind you is simply contrary to the actions of Good-aligned characters, and is rather suspect for even neutral characters.
  I'm running out of ways to explain this.  Have some respect for other players.  If you cause a dangerous situation, contribute to solving it.  At the very least...warn others or apologize to those harmed. 

[Gulnyr]

I really don't want to reply to this, but I'm feeling stupid so I'm gonna.

There is a server rule that says "Don't lead stuff to town."  That trumps any RP reason for doing it.

EDIT: Or Dorganath can give you the longer, less blunt version with a scoop of authority on the side.

[Glassman]

What I’m seeing here is that in order for the server to run smoothly, certain role-playing sacrifices are having to be made because of game mechanics. I know its moot point, but I whole-heartedly agree with this. As much as Layo is getting more in-depth all the time, there are certain things that will never change. And AT’s is one of them.

Just an Idea. How about a few stationary guards placed outside towns as gate guards. They will attack or be attacked by monsters that follow characters. This isn’t a get out of jail free card though. A system similar to the DT or PK is used whereby every time they bring monsters to town, they receive a point, and after so many the GM’s are alerted and can take action, such as sending a group of town militia to arrest offending characters, who will then have to serve a stint in the clink or pay a hefty fine. This alone will act as both a deterrent, and also a safety net for characters that are truly desperate.

I’m not condoning leading monsters anywhere. And the programming involved in something like this is probably enormous (wouldn’t know because I’m no a programmer yet). I haven’t weighed up any pro’s or cons because I just had this idea.

I do have one question though. If new characters are traveling along reasonably safe routes, and get ambushed by monsters dragged away from their spawn points by other characters, are they supposed to fight to the death too? I know this is the whole reason behind the server rule which states no luring etc. If said characters die and get DTs what should their players do? I’m assuming they post something on The Disputes and Grievances forum.    

[lunchboxkilla]

Ok... I gotta speak up... I never ment this top be a debate.. I just wanted to make a point and be doen with it..

*sighs* next time I'm gonna fine the person responible and yell at him RP wise...

[Wintersheart]

Glassman - 1/5/2006  11:12 AM
I do have one question though. If new characters are traveling along reasonably safe routes, and get ambushed by monsters dragged away from their spawn points by other characters, are they supposed to fight to the death too? I know this is the whole reason behind the server rule which states no luring etc. If said characters die and get DTs what should their players do? I’m assuming they post something on The Disputes and Grievances forum.    

The so-called safe routes aren't really safe - Mistone is a big place with lots of wilderness in between the more settled areas. Most of the "roadmaps" you cross on your way between cities are in fact such wilderness. So in short there are no safe outdoor areas, but...

I note you write “characters”. If you are in a group and encounter something you can’t handle having one character sacrifice himself for the others is usually the best solution both IC and OOC. Should you wish to bring it up in the forums the other players can testify.

Travelling alone is different. It always carries a greater risk. My own character Rolf got two thirds of his DT’s due to the GS bug while travelling alone (extremely frustrating). If you choose to travel alone you are taking a greater risk is a player.

However having said that if you do get jumped by something that OOC clearly shouldn't be there try to get hold of a GM either in game or on the forums.

One: we can then take care of the problem so no other players get caught in it.
Two: we can help you (within reason) sort your immediate problems and if nothing else testify to your version should you wish to bring it up in the dispute and grievance forum (bearing in mind the restrictions and rules set forth in the forum).
Three: handling incidents such as these in a mature manner demonstrates that you are a responsible player which is always a big bonus.

To quote what Dorganath said earlier in the post:
“We understand that mistakes happen, but we also ask that you as players exhibit some level of personal responsibility and try to notify someone if you have inadvertenly led monsters to places they shouldn't be.  Let a GM know in-game.  Come to the forums and post an IC warning.  Park your character on the other side of the AT and warn travellers of the dangers beyond...

Above all, have some respect for the rest of the players in the community.”

In short mistakes happen - its how you handle them that’s important and that also counts if you inavertedly got drawn into someone else’s mistake.

[Diamondedge]

In closing, I'd like to make one single remark.

All these adventures taking up residence in Hlint that kill all sorts of monsters...

One of these days a group of monsters ought to 'retaliate'. Ogres or goblins or something... I dunno.

[lunchboxkilla]

Diamondedge - 1/5/2006  7:46 PM

In closing, I'd like to make one single remark.

All these adventures taking up residence in Hlint that kill all sorts of monsters...

One of these days a group of monsters ought to 'retaliate'. Ogres or goblins or something... I dunno.

They have before...
Ask the older players they day Fistiron got angry and sent half dragons into hilnt