Trade Prices

[LordCove]

Referring to the little debate going on in the Trade Hall... I thought I'd set this up here for minor discussion.

Mainly because... considering the minor amount of business it does... Sall's little carpentry shop sells bows and equipment at fairly lower prices than the standard set price.

The main reason I do this... is since V3... as we all recall... some of the Loot Drops on creatures has been reduced... in some places minorly, in others greatly.
Also... a reduction in the amount of Online players ( although not a huge amount as i can tell ) also means less business to those selling low-level craftable items.


Personally.... I have "never" had more than 100k in my bank account. And despite my best attempts to save... rarely seem to get close to this amount.
Yew Longbows certainly dont sell as well as I'd like  

So.... for discussion.

Loot Drops increased ( True amount ) or Prices of items reduced?
Or... is everything hunk dory as it is?

[Pen N Popper]

I find keeping up with gear to be very expensive on a low level's budget.  Once you hit around 10th level most PCs can solo something to gather coins, even if it is slow accumulation of 500gp a spawn.

My suggestion would be to lower "official" prices of items with a level requirement of 9th or less.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Hey, Shiff sells cheap the low level ammys and rings, and he Offers a deal of buy 2 get one 1/2 off, which is effectively a 17% discount on everything

[lonnarin]

Mostly I just want a grocery store with realistic prices.  A dozen eggs for 20 gp, big bags of flour, 5gp, milk for 2gp a bottle, butter by the pound.  Baking a pie isn't supposed to be as much of a chore as learning to make adamantium fullplates.  People shouldn't be cooking to make money when their other job involves killing armies for their pocket money, they should be cooking for fun.  Egg farmers should not be paid as much as high risk spelunking miners.

I'm all for magic items costing a fair price that's set, but when in the same breath we set the prices of mundane items to amazingly ludicrous prices like 600 true per a loaf of bread, 3000 true for 3 dozen eggs, 1200 for a pie, then it seems odd to me that we would be so worried about the economy of weapons and armor selling too low.  I find it hilarious that we want to "fix" the economy by totally ignoring supply and demand.

I've heard it stated many times before "oh well that's the price for YOU adventurers, everybody else pays less!"  Well I call farce on that explaination.  You're telling me that a 15th level rogue or bard with the social skills of a legandary UN diplomat can't simply don a dirty peasants attire and pretend to be one of them?  If a 15th level rogue can't infiltrate a farmer's market to buy a dozen eggs, then these are dire times indeed!  

The price of food products is most assuredly inflated by OOC and the spirit of how convenient it is to gather them yourself, ie Supply and Demand.  If these were the price of actual food products, the peasants would have had a bloody workers revolution and decpitated every noble they could lay their hands on.  Ask Mary Antionnette.  In our economy, that "cake" of charred bread at the bottom of the oven would cost at least 400gp and you couldn't deduct the price any further for it being burnt either.  It's still technically the same bread.

So in conclusion, one cannot harm a stillborn economy.  If we're going to address the situation with alarm and leap into accusing glances towards the poor tradehall crafter who just wants to move his overstocked inventory, then let us too scrutinize the opposite end of the spectrum.  I guaruntee that coin for coin, the overpricing on raw CNR and finished food items far outpaces the underpricing of moderate magical items.  The big difference is that the little things, flour, wheat, eggs, tailors needles, etc... are the backbone and lifesblood of the nation's economy, whereas swords, armor and magic rings are of a niche market geared only towards those people crazy enough to fight ogres for a living.  (of course if I saw my grocery bill, I'd seriously consider it)  If the price of a shortsword drops, the average person in the streets isn't going to feel it, just guards, military, adventurers and criminals.  If a loaf of bread costs 500gp in the tradehall, then it means that everybody's starving, pot-bellied from dehydration, covered in flies and cannibalizing one's own offspring has become a cultural mainstay.  Hunters and foragers and fishermen would be surviving, and every farmer with a chicken coop would have 10,000,000gp in the bank.

This is why I prefer communist trading of base resource materials between workers.  Need a sword?  Get me some iron and clay, or trade me something I need more.  Labor too, like 5-10 trips to the mines lugging ore for a fullplate, or I'll smelt this if you enchant that.  That's worth more to me than a digital coin.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Yeah, lonnarin is pretty much right on. The Layo market, due to OOC factors, is just screwy- it's still beholden to the "laws" of supply and demand, but the demand is set more by OOC factors than by IC factors.

The only way I could see the food market (pies, etc.) being brought down to "normal" costs is if all kitchen CNRs (rye, eggs, milk, etc.) were sold by an NPC vendor for what they're "supposed" to cost, in which case PC's would no longer need to gather the goods. That would actually be more realistic, since PC's are by and large adventurers, and wouldn't be picking apples on a regular basis anyway. Also, you could have different types of food available only in certain regions, as is the case now, but they're sold in markets.

This would also reduce the number of placeables, but I'm not sure if it will really help the database as eaxh NPC will be dynamically conjuring goods each time they're accessed. In other words, I'm not sure such a change would really reduce lag much.

The major downside, however, is based on the fact that if you know what you're doing, you can grind up through the crafts skills pretty fast. Making it so you don't have to gather raw food goods would make it go up REALLY fast. At least, the Cooking Skill would shoot up (it would help scribing, too, as so much of scribing requires kitchen CNRs), but really, cooking shouldn't be that hard to get pretty good at doing. It shouldn't be as hard as smelting and smithing... but the way it is now, smelting is sooooooo much easier than cooking.

*shrugs* But the reality? We don't have the time or impetus to make the change even it such a change was agreed upon. Odds are that we're stuck with this system until the new game is released.

EDIT: I second the motion that trading goods is infinitely better, more fair and equal, under our current system when compared to trading coins.

[Pseudonym]

I loved reading Lonn's post (as I do all of his). Yep, it doesn't really make sense buying a box of eggs for 3,000 true. In my mind, I have always rationalised the crafting system by not thinking of the CNR by what they are named but as  component A, component B, etc. Maybe the milk needed for whatever is not just everyday old peasant milk that indeed sells for 1 true a bottle but is the special milk that only certain cows fed a certain grain can produce?
Maybe all these 'special' overpriced foods are part of the secret why adventurers age so well and have such abnormal abilities?

[ycleption]

To address a couple of points from the first few posts.
For a while after v3, coin drops were still in flux. Currently though, I think it is easier for low level characters to accumulate true than it was in v2, so I don't think that should be the basis for an adjustment to prices.

The other thing, is that while beginner gear may not be worth much to guild or experienced independent crafters, lowering the price ends up harming low level crafters. While higher levels make most of their true from the occasional exceptional or high level item, beginning characters need low-level items to be robustly priced because, well, that's what they can make...
The biggest harm to this game's economy, in my opinion (other than simply the small size), is because people in this community are generally very nice and generous. Supply and demand doesn't control things unless everyone is properly greedy. Yes, sometimes this would mean trying to undersell at times... but a very large number of players give gifts, or charge minimal costs for friends/beginners/members of the same race/whatever. Often, it's perfectly an in character thing to do. The problem is that it lowers expectations of "normal" costs, and greatly hurts the merchants, from whom characters would otherwise buy. Officially, it's against the server rules to undersell things, but to my knowledge it's not really enforced, and I see a lot of characters giving items away for free... again, nice and generous, but doesn't help things on a larger scale.

I agree for the most part with lon and Milty... I would add, however, that everybody who clamors for lowering prices on boxes of CNR might be singing a different tune when all that true that would be (in general) transferred from richer to poorer characters is still in the hands of the rich, and that ioun stone sells for half a million because the wealthier characters have nothing else to spend their true on.

I guess my point is that anything you try to do to the economy will have effects somewhere else. Maybe I'm completely wrong about what those effects will be, but you can't just manipulate on thing and expect it to have the single consequence you intend.

PS Pseud: you're right on. Everyone knows that eating a diet of pure raw dire bear meat and 30 lb. catfishes will make you run faster and punch harder then anyone else.

[Stug3]

Good point made by all....The other side of the true is what is your time worth? It's not really the eggs that cost 3000 but the time it took to strangle them out of the chicken.
 How long does it take to gather a box of corn (without camping the spawn)
 now multiply that by 6... 6 boxes of corn = 1 box of eggs.
 Now seperate the chickens before you feed them (greedy little mugs)
 Collect your eggs easy... Next time you do the above set a timer and see how long it took. I know it takes quite a while (I'm on my 122nd box of corn)
 While you are doing this your riends are off whacking a dragon and collecting coin and xp. All you have to show for a few hours is a few boxes of corn.
 So what it really boils down to is labor cost. The time I spent to collect this is worth X ammount, pay it or don't. We have not even touched on the level or skills involved. A 2nd level PC will be hard pressed to get almonds away from giants baring any special skills. So would not their labor at getting them have been more than a 15th level rogue who can just sneak in and make off with a whole bushell...and worth more?
 
 Just my two cents...

[Riven]

good thoughts all!

my only addition is that it's good to be able to roleplay a generous character, if in fact your character's disposition is generosity. I think for a roleplaying server, roleplaying your character is more important than abiding by a rule to not gift things.

Also, for a low level character whose disposition really is not about digging sand, gathering herbs, or crafting, there is really no way to afford any of the low priced items. I have two characters (fourth and fifth level) who thus far have no interest in gathering CNR. They have no useful magical items, and probably it will be that way for awhile, unless I buckle down to survival needs, and try to make true, other than adventuring! One of them has 5 cure light potions, and no other magical items! So for some characters gifts are not only appreciated, but makes it possible to play the character in the manner conceived. Also for those kind of characters lower prices on low level gear would be appreciated. I, for one, really appreciate the generous folk who gift healing potions and other odds and ends to budding young adventurers.

[minerva]

 I think for a roleplaying server, roleplaying your character is more important than abiding by a rule to not gift things.

 

 
 There are many creative ways to roleplay generosity without breaking rules placed for the good of all.

[Dorax Windsmith]

I agree with Stug3, the price for basic CNR is really a reflection of the amount of time required to collect those items.  One way to possibly affect the economy without adjusting spawns, loot drops or changing the established "normal" prices would be to increase the total price cap for what the pawn shops can pay out.  I don't exactly know how it works, or if that is something easy to adjust, but it seems like the pawn shops (especially the Large Town Pawn Shops) run out of money to buy things within a day or so RL following a server reset.   If the pawn shops had more coin to purchase from adventurers, this would: 1) allow more coin to flow into the economy thru items sales to pawn shops and 2) allow crafters who want to quickly move items sell to the pawn shops and raise some coin while not undermining the economy by selling to other characters at rediculously low prices.  Ultimately we the players really have to follow the spirit of the economy in order to make this work.

[Gulnyr]

This stuff comes up again and again.  I did a couple of searches just now, and you can almost time the seasons by the regularity of economy threads.

The first thing to understand about the economy in-game is that there isn't a real economy.  It is pointless to make comparisons to real world economic forces since these things don't exist on the kinds of scales that matter.  It would be nice if they did, and that's certainly one of the most important things the new Layonara needs to have, but it doesn't exist now, so things are going to seem silly.  The economy that does exist has a very limited number of people involved, many of whom manufacture their own items, on top of an endless supply of money and no money sinks.

The way to make the economy work in a way that makes sense, so that eggs and milk and bread could have normal prices compared with well-crafted swords and armor, is to start from scratch and build a background that functions more or less like the real world.  The first thing would be lots of scripting for NPC producers and sellers, whether they be farmers and bakers or miners and smelters and smiths or hunters and tanners or whatever, and some way to monitor the supply and demand of everything so that prices would automatically adjust properly.  The background world has to control the economy, not the PCs; the PCs should be a minor part of the economy.  Affect it?  Yes.  Be it?  No.  The second thing would be to limit the supply of money, so that it comes from the governments' mints rather than growing like mushrooms in monsters' pockets - where are these monsters getting all these coins, anyway?  And the third thing would be to create money sinks, like taxes and maintenance costs.

Obviously, that's a lot of work and isn't going to be done for NWN.  I can offer three suggestions to help people make it through until, someday, there is an actual economy to work with.  They help me, anyway...

• Relax.  Yes, prices are going to be dumb sometimes, but a high blood pressure won't make it better.
  
• Follow the rules.  The rules are there to try to keep things fair for everyone.  They aren't perfect, and you may not like some of them, but, at the very least, this will prevent some ridiculous argument a few months from now that will totally blow your mood and possibly leave nasty ripples across the community.
  
• Don't try to craft to get rich, or even to break even.  You will only frustrate yourself.  Everyone else makes what you make, too.  If you manage to sell something now and then, congratulations.  If not, don't let it get you down.