What We Know About Epics

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Didn't really know where to put this, but this cropped up from an offbranch of discussion in the now-frozen The Hunt thread... Completely apart from all of the interplayer issues in that thread, there were a few very good points brought up.

A good many players (myself very prominently included) don't hear anywhere near as much about the characters who have reached Epic status in-game, as our characters do over a pint, or a campfire. We don't know what our characters should know, and, as such, most of us treat our characters as if we didn't know.

This is a problem.

The best example of an Epic character I can think of is Jain Farstrider, from the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Were he alive at the present point in the storyline, he'd be about fifty-five, by my reckoning, and yet he is already the subject of books of The Stories everyone hears about as children. The Travels of Jain Farstrider... That's Epic. That's what Epic means - You are the stuff of legends, literally. It's not just like folks from 11-20, who're likely famous in thier own rights. Epics are almost beyond belief.

To give you something of an idea of how Epics are seen... (Possible WoT Spoilers ahead.)

Jain Farstrider traveled all of the mapped world, and then some, able to cross vast distances in half the time it would take any other rider. His horse (something in Jordan's Old Tounge meaning Sword) was faster than any other, and was fabled to be as sharp a wit as most men. The stories of Jain Farstrider are many and varied, ranging from his dealings with the mysterious Sea Folk, to his battles with the shadowspawn Trollocs. Yet... Little is actually in the stories about his origins; each story simply links itself to an earlier adventure.

In truth, Jain Farstrider was Malkieri; a man from a country since swallowed by the Blight of the Shadow. The Malkieri were the strongest against the Shadow, and every man's life in that land was pledged against it. And yet... Jain didn't stick around, and kill shadowspawn. He ran off, doing various dealings that are quite apart from his role in the stories. In fact, Jain Farstrider was a Darkfriend, who contributed to the fall of Malkier. All of this was in secret, however, so the only tales children hear by the fireside are the like of Jain Farstrider visiting all of the Ogier Stedding in a week's time, taking messages and relics back and forth between those good people.

So...

Everyone knows about Jain Farstrider in Randland (not the place's real name...). What do we know about the Epics of Layonara?

A comprehensive list would be so incredibly helpful, because half of us don't know what we should, and shouldn't know about the Epics, and thusly have no idea how to act towards them.

[Blackguy]

Cant see why this should be stated, your character makes his own opinion about IG characters. Talk to people and ask around ingame, best way to learn someone you dont know. The same goes for knowing Epics.

[Milo]

Good point there Stephen.  I personally would like to know what people really know about Athus as well It's true that Ozy and Acacea are quite effective at spreading informations, it's hard to know what the commoners of Layonara know about the epic characters.

[FlameStrike]

In my opinion, just because someone is Epic, people that get to know them shouldn't exactly fall to their knees and start worshipping them, even if they had heard about their deeds and what not...

 Epic characters should, or should not be loved/trusted/whatever, according to your character's perspective; for instance, a paladin of Toran shouldn't really see Rufus Coldfinger (the Epic Master Necromancer) as a friend and a trustworthy person just because he's Epic,  nor should a Corathite abandon their teachings just because they just met the Epic paladin, Remiel Delmir... (yeah i used pretty much Black and White examples, sorry i couldn't recall of others), but they -should- indeed respect the Epic characters for what they are, since they've been around for a while, were probably through many many different situations, and probably have a good tale they might be willing to tell.

 

[egoober]

To be fair, this was suggested by DMOE to in direct response to comments made about the Epic characters by their own players
  It was postulated that the Epics should, by their nature, be known to anyone who has not " been living under a  rock". Personally, I have played it that I knew of the Epics that had been discussed IC and no others, and this approach has been strongly argued against.
   I think the point is that is needs to be one way or the other. Either our characters encounter these people in the course of play as normal, in which case many will be unfamiliar to us; or they are a known feature of the world, in which case basic information on them should be freely available as a player resource.
  There are Epics out there that I don't know about as a player, so I cannot be expected to RP that my character knows about them!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

You're right, Egoober, both on the count of DMOE (though, if we're being fair, I thought of it about the same place in the thread he did; DMOE was just able to post the idea), and on the count of not being expected to RP things that you, as a player, don't know.

If we're expected to know about the Epics, tell us about them. RaWr.

[Dorganath]

This isn't about making a decision about whether one likes or dislikes someone based on the fact that they're "epic".
  Such figures would of course have great deeds and/or status associated with their names. These deeds do not occur in vacuum, and many, if not most, of them would make it easily into the public domain. They'd be spoken about by the townsfolk, rumor, myth and legend would spread throughout the population, whether they be adventurers or the multitude of thousands of inabitants of Layonara's various towns and cities that are not directly represented in-game but who are most certainly there all the same.
  We're talking major deeds here, not the intricate details of these deeds, nor any of the private/personal things.
  Edit: Also keep in mind that our characters have lives when we're not pulling their strings. They would have at the very least heard the names and at least one of these deeds just by being around others....whether or not we as players were present at the time. They wouldn't know the details, but they would know the names and at least one reason why that person is "epic".

[steverimmer]

Of course there is this, perhaps there should be a resume attached to them as well though
  -- Bil the not quite epic goblin

[EdTheKet]

A comprehensive list can be found here:
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=141
  As for what people did, they have the ability to write their story, as mentioned here:
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8859&posts=10&highlight=epic statue&highlightmode=1#M141610
  which may also lead to a statue (statue would of course not be appropriate for every character, i.e. Rufus and what he did, but in that case it could be some nasty story.)
  (I wrote a ballad for the first ECDQ, but then decided I wasn't going to do it for everyone. This ballad however, should be fairly one known as it's quite the story.)

[egoober]

All of these links contain useful stuff, which somehow I'd forgotten about/missed! Thanks! I don't think anyone is really suggesting that we should "bow down" before Epic characters. However if they are Epic in the sense being suggested, as in familiar to all, then a degree of respect, awe, or even resentment might be appropriate to a character meeting one for the first time
  Just my 2c

[Ne'er]

Perhaps we should have some sort of 'Epics' section on the forums, where people can read about the major things that the epics have done (at least that the public is aware of). Like Ar7 said we should be able to perhaps have players and GMs post about what they have seen or heard about a certain epic doing. Sort of like a gossip corner.

A good way i like to look at epics (and I'm sure others do as well) is as if they were celebrities. There is never a lack of gossip about the celebrities, and nearly everyone can recognize a celebrity in the streets if they met them. They might not be their biggest fan, or may not even like them, but they at least know who they are and a few things they have done.

I imagine it would be the same for epics. We get to see epics in action and interact with them, so why not be able to gossip about these 'celebrities' of Layonara? I imagine that a Forum on the website dedicated to information on epics would be really useful.

[Milo]

*pokes epic character players to post stuff in the Hall of Heroes forum*

...Oh yeah...I need to do that too...

[EdTheKet]

I don't think anyone is really suggesting that we should "bow down" before Epic characters.

Exactly, as that wouldn't make sense. Not an entirely corect example, but think of it as meeting a superstar. You don't go bowing down for  but you do admire them/have respect for them. Or alternatively, if it's a bad guy, think of it as some nasty well-known person from history, you don't go bowing down there either (well, you might because the person you might be thinking of might be Ivan the Terrible who'll cut off your head if you don't bow), but some fear and caution would probably be something that you'd be experiencing.  

However if they are Epic in the sense being suggested, as in familiar to all, then a degree of respect, awe, or even resentment might be appropriate to a character meeting one for the first time

Exactly, respect, awe and resentment are good examples of how you can feel about a well-known and famous (or infamous) person. Fear ('The Coldfinger will get you!' nice example that )or caution are other examples as mentioned above.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Sure, we have a list of the Epics. But where is the list of their accomplishments? Where is something telling us what they've done that MAKES them epic? Sure, some of them (Xiao being the one I've read all of) actually have the information that players like me are after, but other (Triba Gues!) are notably lacking in that regard.

[freemen2]

Being epic does not mean having yer life splattered everywhere for all too see either, Path as written 5lines in his thread because I saw way too many times peoples' action towards other PCs changed because of what they saw written in their development thread when mosty are private journals and such...hell most people don't even respect a simple thing like what see when they click on a PCs eye, to have a semblance of knowing where they stand in regards to them...way too many times I've seen others, or have been, treated like a one of the guys when I am impossible, for other players...In a world where battles is a common thing one of the first thing you start doing is weighing yer chances of survival in regards to others you interact with...although I agree about the no PK rule here, it does make a lot of people think they are can treat anyone the way they want when anywhere else they would be dead after the first few sentences they typed to a player *shrugs*

[Etinfall]

Tis goes against the lvl status but to me, just being 21 and above does not make a character epic. The character needs to be around Layo for some time. Be known to us as people to, on forums.  and be up in the epic levels.
 
  some examples are:
  Enzo Reynolt. When I first met  him he was another ranger to me. More powerful than me but not indestructive by no means. After a few months(3-4) I realized Enzo (and G452) were probally  going to be here in the epic levels. After a year and he did hit the epic levels I and my char, Cole Etinfall, think of himi as one of the most powerfull people he has met. His actions in game have achieved him the epic arua, hitting epic levels in nwn is just him growing in power.
 
  Ozymandias-I met him as a player he was larger then life. Everyone in game and on the forums knew of him, but always made jokes about his moods and such. At the time I met him he was in epic levels but my char was actually meeting him in game(and not able to go through his pockets and read his stats) so Cole just assumed he was someone with power that hides it and loves to talk about history. OOC I know he is epic and is high level but in game I have travelled with him a few times early on and saw he was powerful indeed for someone so sick Then I would hear stories about him doiinf something or another.
  Plenarius Ashely-in game I seemed to travel with him alot. Usualluy on a quest, sometime just him helping out a party I was in. He was approachable and just very strong. He to will be an epic char in the years ahead.
 
  and there  are more out there, some I have never met or seen but have heard about in game or on forums. But there are alot of people hitting lvl 21 and above that are not epic in my eyes. They need time to be heard of and seen. It should take years. And contribute to the community as well.
  These three have in common the fact they they have been here on Layo for a long time. Many years. Thay is why we all know about them, and I have always assume Cole talks to Jon the Butcher in Hlint or Dorris the friendly resident of Ft Last about stories about these people.
  Chuck the barber in Pranzis says"hey I heard of a man with wings that protects others from the evils of this world. Someone thought they saw him take out an entire army of Orcs to save the peole of Waysend."
  "I heard he likes cashews," monty the one legged carpenter says.
 
 
  OK I just re-read this and I do not think it makes sense at all. I just think when you come up on a char in game you may have head of things about them and they may be epic later on in the years but a long time comming.
 
 
  epic real life:
  Babe Ruth
  Albert Einstien
  King Arthur(real??)
  Ceasar
  Cleopatra
  not
  Brad Pitt
  Jon Bon Jovi
  Shirley McClaine
 
  I apoogize to any Shirley McClain fans

[EdTheKet]

Etinfall - 2/18/2006 9:56 PM   Tis goes against the lvl status but to me, just being 21 and above does not make a character epic. The character needs to be around Layo for some time. Be known to us as people to, on forums. and be up in the epic levels.
 

 That's why we have the ECDQ system. In order to get an ECDQ you need to, and I quote (just so that everyone is aware):
 

Leanthar - 4/13/2005 3:36 PM
  Permission for a character to progress into epic levels via ECDQ will be determined on a case by case basis. Two criteria will be discussed before the decision is made. These criteria are:
  - Character needs to have been played on Layonara for at least 12 months - Character needs to have shown involvement in the world. This isbased on RP, quest participation, active guild membership, or other ways of leaving a 'mark' on the world.
  Both of these criteria must be met. Determining if the character meets the second criterion will be done by Leanthar, with input from the GM team. If a character has been played very well, and left a mark on the world, the time requirement may be lowered slightly. This is at the discretion of Leanthar.
 

 When you pass these criteria, you can have an ECDQ run, and only when you successfully complete that are you allowed to take lvl 21.
 

But there are alot of people hitting lvl 21 and above that are not epic in my eyes.

A lot? We only have 15 (and they've all earned it).

[Etinfall]

Ed you are very correct about the number of lvl 21 and more, it is not a lot. And the rules for advancing above are awesome and right on.
 
  I edited the rest cause I did not realize this topic was elsewhere also.

[GhostWhoWalks]

The most important thing Ed said in this thread, was that your characters exist when you are not playing them. They don't go into sleep mode.

They exist in a world. A world that DOES know about these people. They whisper tales about them. They sing songs about thier deeds. They are heros, or villans.

There are things that almost all civilised people would know, it's in the lore of the world now. If you went up to any merchant or any crafter in the world, and asked them what they knew of Blacklung... they could tell you something. They may not know he's a human. Or that he's old. That personal type of information is rarely covered in stories... but they would know some things. Basic things.

It's not about bowing and scraping. But it is about realising that these people have been allowed to progress to epic levels for a reason. They have made a splash. It may not have impacted your character, but it's impacted the world in many cases, and your character is in the world.

I have 1 character that would never had heard of any of the epics, he lives in the forest. Alone. He hunts. Alone. He doesn't speak common beyond a few words. He doesn't interest himself in the trappings of mankind. But... he knows of Rhizome regardless. Because the animals sing their own songs about him. The trees whisper his name.

In character, when I first met Rhizome, I didn't know him by appearance. But once someone said his name, I had respect for him. I didn't know anything about him. But I knew that the birds sung his name. And that means he's someone to be given respect in the natural world.

Some would be known for their battle prowess. Some would be known for being wealthy or skilled at crafting. Some would be known for the deeds they have done. Some would be known for something else all together. But they are known.

Players make up less than 1% of the population. It's an incredibly small portion. Players often forget that I think. But we're the minority. When you walk into Hampshire, it's a bustling port town. Tens of thousands of people are there. You have to weave in and out of them to get to the markets, and push past them to make a purchase. At the docks you have to traverse all the workers loading the transport ships merchants own.

There is more going on than we see. And that's the most important thing for us players to remember. We're only a small part of the world. And the world goes on as does our character when we're not driving.

[Leanthar]

Very well stated and right on the mark Ghost!