Implosion (Revived Discussion - 1.66 Feature)

[Pankoki]

Okiday folks. Reviving this discussion since in the next Bioware patch (1.66) Implosion will be ignoring any sort of Death Magic Immunity.
  As per the DnD Player's Handbook (both 3.0 and 3.5 ruleset):
Implosion
 
Evocation
 
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
 
Components: V, S
 
Casting Time: 1 standard action
 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
 
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
 
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
 
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
 
Spell Resistance: Yes
 
You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)
 
You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.
 
Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.
 
  Now, Bioware decided the spell in nwn did not properly represented a level 9 spell and so they decided to give it the nice perk of making it ignore death magic immunity. Normally this would not be problematic, however there are a few things to consider here in this regard. NWN Implosion was also coded with a nice and nifty +3 to DC to the save. So you have in essence a level 12 spell save which needing an ability score of at least 19 (+5)  to cast it you have an automatic at lowest possible DC of Fortitude Save of 27. You can do the math on what it could be with added ability score points.
  Generally I encourage systems that enhance the use of good saving throws and disregard immunities. It makes certain classes that once before where considered weak, appealing instead. Also as a level 9 spell it should have certain power and fear much like other spells in that ring, and currently a level 4 (Death Ward) spell makes it negligible.
  Now on the negative side lets face it. Very few will ever make this save, and some others will be lucky to do so. In general this would make for a very unfun spell to have on both player and monster sides. So taking this into account I would like to propose (as in coversations with Orth) something that balances it out a little.
  The idea is the following:
  - Make implosion indeed ignore death magic immunity.
  - Instead of an automatic death, the player will start taking magical damage per round (maybe 4 rounds, or 1 round/concentration up to 4 rounds). The magical damage would be significant or a percentage of hitpoints, but during this time the player can get healed as they get twixted into themselves. Maybe to demonstrate the pain they get knockdown or paralyzed.
  - Have the spell reduced in radius.
    We are open to ideas in this subject but would like to finalize this discussion ASAP as the spell is getting change at the time of the update. Thank you.

[Dorganath]

I like that it will ignore death magic immunity.  That a 4th level spell can make one fully immune to a 9th level spell is just silly. Also, it doesn't seem like it's technically "death magic" in any sense of the word, other than the fact that it's deadly.

I'd have to say I'm in definite favor of serious damage over instant death.  Maybe being ethereal or ghostly would grant one some level of extra resistance given the lack of a corporeal form....not sure.  Just throwing it out there.

Those are my initial thoughts.

[Reventage]

Did I understand this correctly? The way the Bioware changed the spell so that it's no longer an AoE spell and instead you target it on one creature, whom will have to roll a fortitude save or be killed, then, if the critter saves, you continue concentrating and the creature has to roll another fort save to survive. If the creature is killed, the spell moves to another target. This effect lasts for four rounds and requires concentration or it will break.

So all in all, if you are lucky, you might get four creatures killed with this spell.

Or they just left the spell as it is but removed the death magic immunity protecting against it.

Edit: Never mind, I found the answer from the Bioware website, it's the later. Then yes, something needs to be done about it, I'll start thinking.

Further edit: I re-read Pan's suggestions, the first two options, having it do damage instead of killing you on the spot and maybe dazing the target sounds good, but the spell has an extremely small radius as it is. Unless the creatures are all tightly packed together and can't see you, you rarely get too many killed with the spell.

So maybe instead of a smaller radius keep the radius as it is and just limit the amount of how many creatures the spell can harm with one casting. One creature per five levels for an example.

[GhostWhoWalks]

I'd just make it single target instead of AE.

Still has to punch SR. Still get to make a fort save, which is a fairly common high save vs high end creatures.

Ignoring Death magic and AE is a bit much, ignoring death magic and single target is coo.

[OneST8]

I concur.

Ignore Death Immunity and only single target.

[Milo]

I like the single target idea, makes more sense to adjust closer to the D&D spell

[Rhizome]

I'm looking at this from the perspective of players who may be targets of this spell.  Whereas fort saves are typically high for our monsters, that is not really the case for our players.
  Having a spell which is instant death with a fort save and no other counter to it raises the bar on any monster that may possess this spell or ability.  Since this is the case, I think we should either go back through and adjust the CRs of those creatures/NPCs or take it out of their spell books if we like their CRs where they are currently.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Ignore death immunity, let it have the area effect, but lower the DC. The players that will be attacked with it, will be the ones in front, and they are normally the ones with the best fortitude saves - just give them a chance by lowering the DC.

Its nice to see a spell that give the warriors back some of their edge.

Harlas

[GhostWhoWalks]

Can't really lower the DC. I mean, we could subtract 3 from it. But that's only 15% different over all. Not really the problem.

Could possibly make it a touch attack. But that fairly drastically lowers the power.

I think single targeting with the DC and everything is fine. Player perspective too. I mean... the stuff that casts implosion should make you afraid. Period. It doesn't now because the issue with death ward being so readily available. Its the same reason we had Weird start ignoing death ward, I believe.

Send the warrior in first to keep the things attention, he'll soak the implosion, which most mobs will start off combat with anyway. Then you can range it down. Tactics are a good thing.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

If you cannot lower the DC, then ok, make it single target.

Harlas

[GhostWhoWalks]

Well, DC's are factored as 10+spell level+ stat modifier + spell focus feats.

Implosion also has a +3 on top of that, which is what we could remove if we wanted.

So removing that +3 bonus and making it single target would be acceptable.

But not even sure the +3 would be necessary to remove. Perhaps test it with the standard +3 for a while, and if it's found to be excessive, remove it.

[orth]

Awakening this discussion in light of the recent thread.

Change to Single Target?  I have it done already, just give the word.

[Leanthar]

Sounds good Orth.

[Pankoki]

[orange]Change it to single target but don't change the rest of it. It is a ninth level spell, lets put some edge on it.

[orth]

Okay this is done in next update.

[blonde]

This spell is still not right. I just tested it on a giant, and i was immeadiatly killed. I had a death ward up, so i didnt even get the save. And before you ask, yes i am very sure i clicked on the giant and not myself.

[orth]

Moving to Bug Reports so I don't lose track.

[orth]

Both these issues fixed in next update.