Implosion and Similar Spells

[Decius]

 medium area of effect effectively is single target unless the creatures are very close together

[ZeroVega]

@Decius: I could have sworn it was changed to single target. Thought I read it somewhere but I don't know if it ever got signed off and went into affect. *shrugs*

[blonde]

It is not single target. There has been talk of adapting it more towards the DnD version where the caster picks his targets, but that is hard with the current nwn mechanics.

[Rayenoir]

ZeroVega - 11/17/2005  8:13 AM



Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.

Oh come on.  You're never packing a dispel or a spell breach?

[Harloff]

Wintersheart - 11/17/2005  10:58 AM

Varka - 11/17/2005  7:07 AM

*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!

*grins* never trust fighter on this - Skarp take out the cleric!

*winks*
 

*Skarp looks around*

Damn it which is which

[dadunmir]

Are the mechanics of the game such that Undeath Eternal Foe really on works vs undead or does it provide protection against death magic and neg energy drains in general?

[Chrys Ellis]

*wakes up and reads all the responses since last night*
  My, goodness. Lots of replies already.  Ok, time for some clarification on a couple of things.
  First, Pan said he knows half a dozen characters who can make the fortitude save against a DC 32.  I'm not sure if he means this to address the same question I had about the save.  I was commenting that I don't know anyone who, should they roll a 1 for their Fort save, would survive that spell.  Either Pan misunderstood me, or I misunderstood him.  In the latter case, that would mean he knows half a dozen characters with a 31 Fort, right?  Or am I missing something in that?
  Second, regarding this being a single target only, I think I can confirm that is not the case here.  Xiao resisted a spell right at the same moment Seteece was killed, according to the battle text, and they were, in fact, standing pretty close to one another.  Unless the giant managed to cast something on me, I think it's safe to say Xiao was resisting the implosion.
  Third, isn't it already a game of "bring the cleric" to certain areas?  If death magic is involved, fighters will need deathwards.  There are already areas groups won't go without a cleric, because death magic leaves it too much to chance.  Or they could use items like Orth described to Save vs. Death but, how do you get Save vs. Death Items?  Are they craftable?  I've certainly never heard of anyone selling such an item.  Can they be found on drops?  Just curious.
  Fourth, to clarify about knowing your enemy and taking them out first, I should note that the priestess was GM controlled.  I don't know if she was invisible or not, but I didn't see her until she had cast the implosion.  For those familiar with the rift, this all occurred at the spot just before going down that first ramp, across the ravine from the group of drow where there used to be diamond veins.  The only evidence of her was a summoned dire tiger down below, which I assume she cast from across the ravine.  I'm only pointing this out to note that the group didn't rush in blindly and fail to take out the priestess first.  She came to us.  I've only ever seen her rush opponents when a GM is controlling her.  I'm not saying the GM didn't have the right to do it, just that I didn't see her approach.  We were well prepared, but not for the priestess rushing us and starting off with the implosion spell.
  Finally, regarding this being a strategy game vs. luck, I agree that this is a game, and luck should be a factor, but within reason.  I also feel that if the party knows what they are facing, there should always be a way to prepare for it.  Now, I didn't realize that implosion wasn't treated as Death Magic, so in this case, I didn't know my enemy as well as I could have, nor did Seteece.  If we did know, we could have increased his chances of survival, but not ensured it, unless we had death jewelry for him (which I would definitely like to know more about).  I don't know what lvl the priestess is, but I assume the SR needs to be pretty high, and she needs to roll relatively low against it in order to resist.   Same with fortitude.  To have a fortitude of 28 is not something most characters can attain, even with jewelry.
  I'm not saying there should not be instances where you simply have to make some saves against a spell, or suffer the consequences.  'Harm' is an example.  That spell can dish out around 100 damage, but most characters facing enemies with this spell could survive that if they were at full health.  At that point, they have a choice whether to continue fighting or try to withdraw to heal up.  I am just opposed to a completely healthy fighter type being taken out by a single spell, even if there is more than one roll to save against it. Say spell resistance and fortitude, for example.  The cost of death is too high in this world for it to ever be left strictly to chance, in my opinion.

[Filatus]

Feldspar set in a copper ring gives you save vs death. An exceptional one, along with protection from spells provides a good bonus to your save.

[blonde]

"...Second, regarding this being a single target only, I think I can confirm that is not the case here.  Xiao resisted a spell right at the same moment Seteece was killed, according to the battle text, and they were, in fact, standing pretty close to one another.  Unless the giant managed to cast something on me, I think it's safe to say Xiao was resisting the implosion..."

Heh, im afraid that spell you resisted was my confusion spell which i got off right after i got the priestess down. And the spell IS AoE, no reason to discuss that further .

"...I don't know if she was invisible or not, but I didn't see her until she had cast the implosion..."

She might have cast sanctuary actually, but i saw her all the way, and was casting a Forcefull hand at her...she just beat my initiative and managed to get the implosion off right before she was knocked down.

"...Or they could use items like Orth described to Save vs. Death but, how do you get Save vs. Death Items?  Are they craftable?  I've certainly never heard of anyone selling such an item.  Can they be found on drops?  Just curious...."

They are craftable, and I think Set has some.

[dadunmir]

To clarify the single-target aspect of the spell.  I've cast implosion on groups of ogres slaying nearly 4 at a time.  It's not single target.  I've also in doing  the such caught myself and died.  I'm considering posting that on the worst/funniest deaths thread.  I rolled when I realized I self-imploded.  That's all another story though.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

The chance/risk/luck factor should always remain, in my opinion. The challenge and thrill is lost if one can put together a party that can handle protections against any spell. As long as they have clerics have heal spells they can basically continue unchallenged. And on Layo you only face oponents that use such high level death magic in places where you know that there is a high risk of being killed. The Rift is dangerous, and it should be dangerous. I assume you go there for minerals/ore, and those are worth the risk, or no one would dare to visit that place.

Regarding the save vs. death jewelry. I assume that a +2 save vs. death ring adds 2 to a fortitude or will save vs. death by a bodak's ray or an implosion spell?

[miltonyorkcastle]

It probably is just semantics, Pan.  This game is quite a bit different from an RST, to be sure.

[Pankoki]

[orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed and I've seen people make higher at even 32. You are forgetting one little itsy bitsy weenie thing called, Spellcraft bonus. Which amazingly enough is added for every 5 points in it to all magical saves. That means that just about every mage out there with a decent backbone can make those saves in a jiffy, not to mention a whole bunch of other classes and people who put points in them. Its a beautiful thing.  Death bonus items have been in the crafting system since V1.  Finally to say that the death penalties in this world are too harsh, come on man. You were a part of this world when dying meant losing weeks and weeks of work in XP. Now all you get is a bunch of reduced stats and a chance of a death token. To be any more lenient than that is just to remove death penalties and have "infinite lives". Death penalties are far from harsh here. So what? You get stuck in one place for an hour or two meditating about what happened. What is wrong with that? Maybe it gives you time to consider your situation and why you died and plan for a better counterattack. And again, luck is not a small factor, its a factor just as important as any other.   It seems to me that you are just venting cause a character has weaknesses that can be exploited. Things go like that, it happens, thats how the game is designed. Every class has moments where they roll the dice and sometimes they fall where it hurts. Mages get clobbered by a huge rock, Clerics get eaten up by some nasty earthquake reflex save, rogues get the horrible horrid wilting, and fighters get to suffer the painful Wail. Its how the game goes.  As far as the spell, yes, its an AoE but its itsy bitsy tiny and it has some lag related quirkiness that depending on how you target it it sometimes only targets one and sometimes it targets an entire group. Eld uses it all the time and sometimes she takes out 4 or 5 monsters that seem to be a bit apart and sometimes she takes out only one when they are scrunched up together. Nothing wrong with this really, its just the quirkiness some spells have.

[Chrys Ellis]

Pankoki - 11/17/2005 8:25 AM [orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed and I've seen people make higher at even 32.

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  You said you could name a dozen characters who could make the save.  I'm not sure what you mean by making it with their eyes closed, though.  For me, unless I could make the save even if I rolled a 1, I wouldn't be closing my eyes.  Maybe you mean their fort combined with the spellcraft bonus makes the roll trivial.  Xiao can make the save, but it wouldn't be guaranteed.
   

[/FONT]Death bonus items have been in the crafting system since V1.

  [/FONT][/FONT]
  The death bonus items I know of improve your chances against death magic, but don't protect against it the way deathwards do, am I right?  

[/FONT]Finally to say that the death penalties in this world are too harsh, come on man. You were a part of this world when dying meant losing weeks and weeks of work in XP. Now all you get is a bunch of reduced stats and a chance of a death token. To be any more lenient than that is just to remove death penalties and have "infinite lives". Death penalties are far from harsh here. So what? You get stuck in one place for an hour or two meditating about what happened. What is wrong with that? Maybe it gives you time to consider your situation and why you died and plan for a better counterattack. And again, luck is not a small factor, its a factor just as important as any other.

[/FONT][/FONT]
  I was referring more to the Death Token system. I have no problem with the other aspects of the death system.  

[/FONT]It seems to me that you are just venting cause a character has weaknesses that can be exploited. Things go like that, it happens, thats how the game is designed. Every class has moments where they roll the dice and sometimes they fall where it hurts. Mages get clobbered by a huge rock, Clerics get eaten up by some nasty earthquake reflex save, rogues get the horrible horrid wilting, and fighters get to suffer the painful Wail. Its how the game goes.

[/FONT][/FONT]
  I don't have a problem with character weaknesses, just weaknesses that can't be overcome by proper preparation, and can kill in an instant.  Aside from the Wail, the examples you gave don't guarantee death, do they?  Granted, a mage won't likely have enough HP to survive getting clobbered by a huge rock, but they might.  The wail can be guarded against with a deathward. As fair as wilting, I can't recall if it's death magic or not.
  I know we differ on this, and that's fine.  I just wanted to voice my opinion, to shed some light on the topic and open it for discussion.  If those running this world are still satisfied with the system in place, then so be it.   

[Pankoki]

[orange]By being prepared you can overcome all the things that have been mentioned, they are weaknesses of characters but they can all be overcome.  With high enough saves (and trust me a lot of people can get high and then some) and with us disabling the fail on 1, a lot of people automatically succeed on those DCs mentioned above.  Sounds to me that you just need to familiarize yourself more with the technical aspects of the game. There is a way to prevent all that has happened and has been mentioned in this thread. However those are character things that I rather not discuss, secrets of the trade or in-character knowledge, regardless of what they may be nothing "unfair" happened to the members of your party.  They took their chances on something that was hard and weren't prepared properly, thus their chances of dying were high and paid for them. I think it is about time you go in-game and start asking around how are the ways to circumvent this problem instead of keep bringing it back to the forum. I heard the story from the DM that was involved and I trust him to be honest on the way things happened, so far it sounds that there was little degree of preparation and everything was taken for granted because the caster in that spawn normally has a different spell sequence.

[steverimmer]

Just thought I'd point out that on any encounter Bil always looks for the mage first and attacks him before even considering the other attackers.  Thought most other people did that too

[ZeroVega]

Rayenoir - 11/17/2005 10:00 AM

ZeroVega - 11/17/2005 8:13 AM   Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.

  Oh come on. You're never packing a dispel or a spell breach?

  @Rayenoir: Err... yeah I do use Spell Breach and Dispelling. Two things though. One, Spell Breach won't take off Protection from Death Magic cast by a cleric or druid. Two, I don't make it a habit to attack PC clerics. When I cast finger of death at an NPC their death magic protection is permanent (99% of the time). Perhaps I chose my words poorly but what I meant was, a cleric can cast protection from deathward and have almost no fears from NPC's death magic. (Mainly because not many NPCs cast dispells with the exception of their nifty traps) Implosion is one spell that makes a nice little exception to that.
  So I think we've decided. Implosion is a nasty spell. Feldspar jewelry will increase your Save vs. Death Magic (which includes Implosion) but there is no spell or piece of equipment out there that makes you immuned to it. (Besides Spell Resistance and Spell Mantles) We've gone over the tactics that can be used to foil those who'd use the spell, and have learned the quirks of it. (Killing odd numbers when it should kill more/less) There are characters that can make the save with their eyes close and those who can't. So there we are... right?

[Dorganath]

Chrys Ellis - 11/17/2005 11:40 AM   Xiao can make the save, but it wouldn't be guaranteed.

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  That begs the question...why should it be guaranteed?
  To touch on something you mentioned before, it shouldn't matter that a GM contolled the NPC that cast this spell.  If this were a real world, these baddies would probably not just stand in one place waiting for you to come and kill them.  That you talk about having the right spells in place suggests that you are expecting the particular NPC to always be in the same place every time, when in fact, this world changes constantly, and direct GM involvement reflects that.

[Synpox]

There's always a way around something...

[miltonyorkcastle]

*looks up at Synpox's statement and grins*