Author Topic: lets have the level talk :) (Read 815 times)

jrizz · « **on:** September 05, 2006, 02:25:46 PM »

So there was Wren having it out with some forest giants on his way to the forest giant cave when along comes a high level party going the same way. Now I know that there have been "talks" about lower level chars partying up with higher level chars and that this is frowned upon. So Wren RPed a little to find out where they were headed bid them "safe travels" and went the other way. This was a bit of metagaming on my part knowing the level spread issue and not wanting to put anyone on the spot. But it really made no sense. Now maybe someone from the GM team will chime in on this topic and say "oh it would have been fine for you to join that group due the events" but how would I know that at the time? Perhaps a open discussion on the subject would enlighten us all and get many views out on the table.

pejsaboy · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2006, 02:40:40 PM »

I also would like a little input on this. Most specifically, is there a specific cutoff point in the difference of levels between a PC and the average of a group, and would that also apply to a character with higher levels than a group in question?
Examples:
Group is average level of, let's say 13. PC in question is level (13-x) or (13+x). At what point of x should the player NOT join the group? Sorry for the math, easiest way I could think to express the idea.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2006, 02:52:02 PM »

I don't think there is a problem with characters of different levels hooking up. That kind of rule would be way too general, and it would cause problems with RP.

The trouble starts when a lower-level character is very often partied with higher-level characters and going places that lower-level character has no business being. An occasional trip isn't a big deal as long as the lower-level character is helping in some way and not just sitting back sucking up XP. Just don't make a habit of it.

Another problem would be a higher-level character doing all the work for lower-level characters on the NPC quests. If the lower-level characters can't kill the Goblin Overlord or gather giant heads themselves, then they should try a different tactic, or find another way to gain some XP and try again later, not call in the higher-level characters to do it for them. This is also true for resource gathering.

vgn · « **Reply #3 on:** September 05, 2006, 02:53:00 PM »

Well in this case I don't think it would be appropriate and in fact you basically asked in your post if this would have been an ok time and if not, why, as it didn't make sense to you.

The reason it would not have been ok is for the same reason you seem to think it might have been ok. It makes no sense. Since you didn't say so in the post I'm going to assume that the high-level characters in question did not know your character. So basically, the question at hand is why would a group of high-level adventurers ask a random person they found in the woods to come along with them on whatever potentially dangerous trip they were on?

Now, on the other hand. Let's say that your character has had several RP situations with one or more of the characters in the past in towns/inns/etc and there is at least a companionship relationship if not friendship between the characters. Then it would probably make sense and be ok on a non-habitual basis to adventure together at times.

Basically you need things to make sense.

Related to this is the fact that you had a little meeting in the woods at all. If they saw you battling giants and stopped to find out if you were in trouble and needed help and from there a conversation ensued, then ok, that makes sense. If on the other hand you are just random people out in the woods, why would you stop and talk, especially during the dark ages?

If I'm out walking the world and see one or more characters I do not know I rarely will speak to them unless I'm playing a concerned character and I think the others might be in danger. Why would I? In a city or tavern, sure it makes sense. It's a social setting. Out in the wild or even on the roads? You just don't talk to people. Ask anyone who lives in one of our Urban Jungles like NY. Do you stop and chat with everyone you see while walking down the street? How about at night in the dark?

This bridges well into a general poor RP behavior I see in Layo and in many PWs or online games. It's the basic mentality that if you see another character they must be a good person and you should stop and talk to them. Now most of the time they are good people, but this is a dangerous world, to just assume someone is good is rather odd really down right silly.

Leanthar · « **Reply #4 on:** September 05, 2006, 03:09:07 PM »

I don't know that situation or what was involved.

But this stated by Gulnyr is right on the mark:
"....The trouble starts when a lower-level character is very often partied with higher-level characters and going places that lower-level character has no business being. An occasional trip isn't a big deal as long as the lower-level character is helping in some way and not just sitting back sucking up XP. Just don't make a habit of it.

Another problem would be a higher-level character doing all the work for lower-level characters on the NPC quests. If the lower-level characters can't kill the Goblin Overlord or gather giant heads themselves, then they should try a different tactic, or find another way to gain some XP and try again later, not call in the higher-level characters to do it for them. This is also true for resource gathering....."

jrizz · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2006, 03:32:17 PM »

Staying on point then the question comes back to numbers but in more general terms. What is the low level range, mid level range, and high level range? I see that the real issue is in making a habit of a lower level char partying with higher levels. This is a feels right thing, if it does not feel right then it is not right

.

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:10:36 PM »

What if I dont look at relative levels.... Tyrian doesnt look to see how high(or low) anyone is to go adventuring. She goes, and if it is a weak group its a weak group, and people will die. If it is an all powerful group then WOOO HOOO lots of XPs. But you cant see how strong someone is, right? Its RP.

Am I missing something?

Acacea · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:16:44 PM »

But the question doesn't come back to numbers. I don't really understand this requirement for the exact. We're allowed to join parties regardless of level, it wouldn't make any sense to restrict based on an OOC mechanic. You restrict based on RP terms--do you even KNOW the characters? Where are they going? Is it dangerous? Why in the world would they bring someone who might get slaughtered? Will you be able to chip in, and do they even like you?

You don't need to get a strict breakdown of what the level ranges are and what % of the time you are allowed to mix ranges. Things just need to make sense.

If people started telling me who I couldn't have in party with me while doing something because I'd reached quota or something, and I wasn't trying to drag them into the Underdark or something retarded, I'd be seriously irritated. I don't go places that often, and when I do it's not for XP and rarely is it for crafting materials. Since it is for my entertainment and that of my character, I will usually bring whoever I know that provides me with said entertainment, regardless of level, unless they will be in significant danger--which is an IC limitation.

As has been said before, the problem comes when you tail behind characters at much higher levels than you, sitting back and getting XP for things you have no business taking on, or not having to do any work on NPC quests. There is no breakdown, it's just common sense and IC restrictions.

If you can't really add a lot to the party, you had better be really funny.

Ne'er · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:17:57 PM »

There is the potential for abuse. For example, the level 3 character should NOT be on East romping through the countryside slaying everything, gaining barrel-loads of xp.

In the same sense, if its all RP then why the need to go to the most dangerous area in the world? After all, you're character can't actually see the experience they gather on these adventures. In my own opinion, there really is only so much you can experience by being dragged around the world or by not fighting things on par with your abilities.

For example, in cross country if you are new to the sport and not in shape and try to run all-out for 7 miles you aren't going to get better. Instead you are going to hurt yourself. Same with lifting. Same with most everything. You learn a valuable lesson, but your skills don't actually get better. So an adventurer romping around with people far more "experienced" than themselves asks to be hurt. They would, in my opinion, learn a lesson, but not improve skills wise.

But that's a flaw with the XP system itself, as I see. So not really something that can be fixed.

Xandor Loriland · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:43:36 PM »

I think you have to be careful about deciding whether a cituation like this is appropriate or not based on numbers alone. Its a good place to start but there are cases where a lower level character can make sense with a higher level party. I have personally been in three parties at different times when this issues came up and GMs intervened and said that a lower level character was being "dragged" around for XP when in both cases that couldn't have been farther from the truth. There are times when a lower level character with key capabilities adds a lot to the efficiency of a party and is actually a key enabler to the party being able to accomplish tasks that would not otherwise be possible. Since Rawkwin has gotten 90% of his XP from quests and spends most of his other time on line crafting and selling or RP'ing for quest related issues it just seems like this low level number metric is being used as a yardstick rather than a flag that makes you look deeper. I would suggest some balance be used in evaluating these cases.

In one of the cases the lower level person was a character well known and integrated into a party that was performing a key task of healing. This was a lower level cleric given the specific duty of healing those who are not front liners since there was another cleric taking care of the front line. This makes a huge efficiency improvement since the main healer doesn't have to leave the front line during combat. This character was also a backup for raisng the primary cleric which is a party saver in many cases. This character was invisible to avoid attacks of oportunity resulting from proximity to combat while healing. So at first look it could look like the lower level character is being dragged around but in fact he was a key enabler. And in fact if the party is fighting things that give XP to the higher level characters then the chances are the lower level character is not getting much XP due to the way the CR and XP relate. There is also the XP penalty for party level spread which is a cost paid by higher level characters to have a low level in the party. This character got very little XP from the adventure but the perception was that they were being dragged around.

The second case was a lower level fighter that was well known to the party through RP and business arrangements who just happened to be a better front liner that some at much higher levels. Again this character was a key part of the team at the time and enabled the party to accomplish goals that would have entailed much higher risk otherwise. Being in the front line also carries substantial risk for a lower level with lower HP so the cost seems already built into the game.

The third case was recently when myself and another character wanted to do some exploring. Rawkwin normally operates as a healer and is made invisible to again avoid having his healing disrupted by the combat going on around him. So since he can't cast invisibility on himself he always makes sure there is someone in the party that can make him invisible. In this case the only person we could find was a lower level wizard relatively but with invisiblity and mass haste he was able to provide some key capabilities that made it possible for us to explore otherwise much more difficult areas. This person was known to the other character I was with but not to Rawkwin. I am in the habit of ignoring levels as has been said many times in the forums to avoid metagaming. I only know that this character is a lower level now because the GM told me during the interaction.

I agree that there is an issue if the purpose of having the lower level character there is to power level them and there is no good RP reason and they are not contributing but simply having a lower level character in the party is not a sufficient metric to say that something is wrong. If we are supposed to ignore levels to avoid metagaming then it shouldn't matter what level people are if they are contributing to a party and they have an RP reason to be there. I think level differences can be an indicator of problems at times but is certainly not a black and white indicator. So I guess I am just tyring to present the balance side of the issue since I try really hard to play in the spirit and rules of the server but have found cases where this particular metric does not always indicate a problem.

So I think the question about how many levels difference is appropriate is not necessarilly the right question to ask. A better metric is to ask why each character is in a party. If they are contributing key capabilities and enabling the party to function and they have an RP reason to be there being known to the others in the party and functioning as a group then I don't see why level should matter. The problem comes when a character is getting rewards for doing nothing. But rewards for doing something key should be allowed.

Vyris · « **Reply #10 on:** September 05, 2006, 04:58:41 PM »

Basically, the way I always look at it is this...

If you can be in a party, and make a meaningfull contribution to that party in the success of the intended mission, then you are in. I do not mean standing back and shooting arrows at things in a blind hope of causing a point of damage here or there. I mean, if your going to take your 18 hitpoint, level 3 rogue out into the bush with the big dogs get in there and put your 18 point butt on the line and try for some backstabs.

Carry some targetable healing potions to help out the front line fighters, or stay back and guard the mage/cleric if there happens to be one. The 5 seconds it takes that gnoll to mow you over may be the difference betwen life and death for the rest of the party.

If you have skills, use 'em! Into alchemy?, use those choking gas potions to effect to slow the charge down, or, if you happen to be in a bottleneck you can keep the back ranks dizzy and confused with them so theres not a mad rush as one enemy falls. This will give the fighters and healers time to gather strength.

My point is theres LOTS of ways to play above your character level, and make a difference and EARN the XP you get, plus the trust and respect of the higher level PC's in an RP sense. If the PLAYER knows they can get you out in the rough stuff and not have to baby-sit you the CHARACTER is going to be more willing to consider you when forming the next party too.

Vyris

Guardian 452 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2006, 06:30:53 PM »

I had my level 10 rogue Danny in a group that was higher than him recently... He was able to kill things and saved one person from death with a well timed healing potion!

He used a bow... but he was built to use a bow!

Plus Danny is a RP roit, lots of fun to play in a group...

A rule won't really do any good... people should have the maturity and understanding to keep this in control themselves. Both the low level person and the high level people are responsible to keep abuse from happening!

Going out with a group once and a while when invited isnt a big deal if your "out of your league". So long as you have RP reasons to be there. Not that your RL buddy is in the group.

But doing it constantly when it's clear that you are not contributing is abuse, and you know it when your doing it. So should the high level people in the group!

I really REALLY hope that this doesnt end up a rule.. the GM team has enough stuff to watch as it is! and this will really put a kill on people.... say a RP couple that are a vast number of levels apart... so they cant travel together anymore? that would stink!

G-452

jrizz · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2006, 06:37:56 PM »

ok I completely agree with both Xan and Vyris about contribution. That is the stick to measure by.

Weeblie · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2006, 12:38:40 AM »

Quote

Guardian 452 - 9/6/2006 3:30 AM

Plus Danny is a RP roit, lots of fun to play in a group...

Exactly!

Note that being able to do 100+ damage/round isn't the only way to contribute to a party. I would rather bring someone who's willing to socialize a little than someone who doesn't...

IceDragonDuvessa · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2006, 01:15:26 AM »

If I was to log on and notice a group pulling someone much lower level around or a high level pulling a group of low levels around I would be much less likely to say something if I saw the rp happening. That is first and foremost. If theres an RP reason and the RP is happening during the "bashing run" then its not that big a deal. But if its a high level pulling a much lower level about and the only thing I hear is the occasional "Oooh 500 to level" then theres a big problem. Keep in mind too that the problem does not only lie in the XP the person is getting but also in the items and gold that they have no business having access to yet.

NEXUS7 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2006, 02:23:43 AM »

From a players point of view my take is that, I dont know what level other PCs are., what are levels, all my pCS see is what other PCs do, so if Im with Ozy as Mille I know hes very old and has a lot of magic powers and is wise in the ways of the world, Mille is 8th level and Ozy 30+ but mille makes maps and so adds to the game story.

Same with Spugly and lower level PCs he has been hired many a time to go with lower level partys thats cus hes a body gaurd.

I think metagaming kills the fun and as a player I some times get it in the nick from other players who are metagaming and do not like the fact i try not to. Some times its like being talegated on the road there in a big rush to get EXP and stuff and your trying to just play your PC the ebst you can.

So I would say if its in game and make teh game story move along with good RP thats all that matters.

jrizz · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2006, 10:59:30 AM »

We have had a lot said on this subject in a few different threads. Here is what I think the summary is so far:

1. If a char cannot or is not contributing to encounters (fights, puzzles...) then they should not be there (I guess the exception to this would be grave retrieval)
2. If there is a good RP reason for a wide level spread then it is fine.
3. If you are in a party with a wide level spread and the lowest of those levels are below 10 then don’t go to Central or East.
4. If you are in a party with a wide level spread and the lowest of those levels is between 10 and 14 then you can go to Central but not East.
5. If you are in a party with a wide level spread and the lowest of those levels is not below 15 then you can go to Central or East.
6. If you are below 10th level you should not be on Central or East.
7. If you are below 15th level you should not be on East.
8. If you are on a GM run quest the above do not apply.

I shoud adthat some of this comes from talking with other player and what tey have ben told by GMs.

Leanthar · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2006, 11:20:21 AM »

"...2. If there is a good RP reason for a wide level spread then it is fine...."

One of those things that people define. But I want to make sure it is for an RP reason, not something contrived to get by the request--something we see/hear quite a lot of.

"....6. If you are below 10th level you should not be on Central or East. ...."

I say 9th level. West is made for levels 1-8 (up to 10ish)... if you are level 9 and above you can be on central.
That is one of the reasons that so many people do not slow down in leveling at that 9th level--central has creatures for them to fight.

"....7. If you are below 15th level you should not be on East....."

I would prefer to see this 16th level but if it is a REAL good reason 15 might be okay. East is made for level 18+ characters.

How we had it at first (2 years ago) is as follows, but this has been adjusted over time because of all of the updates.
West - 1-8th level
Central 9 - 17th level
East 18+

Planes is tricky because you can get there from any server...but as it should be the planes is dangerous.

Lilswanwillow · « **Reply #18 on:** September 20, 2006, 02:38:47 PM »

ahh, so central is 'ok' for level 9 characters?
thats good, cause in the OTHER thread it was mentioned 12+, and that worried me, cause I HAVE been to central, and... ya know...
but, I have issues on Central, you won't see me on East any time soon!!!

AeonBlues · « **Reply #19 on:** September 20, 2006, 04:46:44 PM »

I'm just curious...

Does ECL play a factor here?