Make resting reliant on hunger/thirst

[Pen N Popper]

Instead of the attack/saving throw penalties, I would suggest that resting be reliant on not being hungry and thirsty. This would let people have long RP conversations without the penalty of dying of hunger. Meal time then would come at an IC time of just before sleeping.

[Dorganath]

This is in no way a criticism of the idea, but rather a question for clarity...well, two questions really:
  1) How do saving throw/attack penalties actually affect a conversation? I don't see the corelation.
  2) Isn't an IC time to eat about 3 times/game day? I mean, I know time compression makes for some really long game-time conversations, but your character lives by game time, and probably gets hungry at least 1-2 times per day. Personally, I just RP a growling stomach, or a dry mouth. And with the voice-driven eating commands, you can eat without disturbing your conversation.
  Again, just for discussion/clarification.  

[Pen N Popper]

It impacts the RP conversation primarily because when people see the messages, they immediately set to drinking and eating to eliminate either the messages or the potential impact to combat.I, like most I think, don't mind emoting eating every once in a while. However, to have to do so three times an ingame day gets old fast. My opinion, of course.
  By moving the penalty for not eating/drinking to a naturally in-character time (just before rest), I think that would encourage more people to RP around the act. It would also reduce the many OOC times that people eat and drink now.
  If you disagree with my statement that eating/drinking occur at very OOC times, please review the log of the Prantz executions. I'll give an example with name removed to protect the innocent:
[INDENT]  Player: *his face is expressionless and stern as he listens to the mage* Warding Mage: One of rofireins own will speak on their behalf to insure the law has been followed to the letter Girl: *rolls her rotten fruit over in her hand and glares at Freldo* Player uses Apple Pie Player uses Slice of Apple Pie
[/INDENT]

[Nehetsrev]

Personally I just ignore it when people need to eat or drink during IC events like that.  I have the mindset that because time is passing so quickly in-game time, most characters would have or will actually be eating outside the time-bubble of said event which takes longer in RL time to RP out.  While on other occassions, it can add a bit of realism to RP if say a character who's been talking at length pauses during conversation to drink some water from his/her canteen or nibble on a snack as they talk.  If I want to add such cases to my RP of my character I manually emote it by enclosing a description of the action in asterisks like any other action I describe to emote.  Otherwise if you don't see the asterisked text along with the action, assume the action isn't really taking place IC.  Hope that's not too confusing the way I've described.

[Dorganath]

Well personally, I've let the hunger/thirst thing go until my characters electrolytes fell out of balance during RP situations. I guess I'm unusual in that my primary concern for eating/drinking is the combat/saving throw impact, and if I think it'll be too disruptive (to myself or others) for the RP, I don't eat/drink, or I do it silently through the voice commands and a self-tell.
  I too noticed the condemned prisoners eating and drinking before the gallows, as well as many of those gathered. I did not really think it was appropriate personally as they shouldn't have had any possessions. It is a sign that feeding the character's hunger has become somewhat of an automatic thing. I'm not sure though that just making rest dependent on it is the correct angle.
  To use an example, fighters who travel with clerics and mages will rarely need to rest at all. They can be healed by clerics (or even potions), and they can be buffed by clerics. A fighter could, potentially, rest so infrequently as to make the hunger/thirst system almost meaningless to him/her, as there's almost no meaningful penalty (unless I am missing something completely). A similar argument could be made for rogues.
  The saving throw/attack penalties kind of affect everyone, to varying degrees of course, but everyone generally sees some negative effect from them.
  I wouldn't be entirely opposed to making it difficult/impossible to rest when too hungry (resting may restore fewer HPs, for example), but I'm not certain removing the other penalties is really appropriate.
  My opinion can be changed, of course, with a strong enough argument to the contrary, so don't assume this is the final word on the matter.

[Pen N Popper]

Well, that's kind of the point:  People are treating the eating as OOC ("will actually be eating outside the time-bubble of said event").  By moving the penalty part to an IC time we would still have to eat but it could always be treated ICly.

[Dorganath]

Oh I understand completely. What I'm asking though is how do you force/encourage pure fighters or rogues to rest (and thereby fall under the influence of hunger and thirst) if they can really go for very, very, very long periods of time without doing so? Spellcasters have a built-in need to rest. Besides healing, and perhaps use of per-day magical devices, fighters and rogues have no built-in need to rest at all. Healing can be handled by potions, bandages, items and clerics/druids/bards.
  Again, I'm not in disagreement with your motivations here. But I'm just not sure that not being able to rest, as the sole penalty, is an appropriate change.
  I guess one thing I need to check is...can someone actually die of hunger. I don't think you can, but I would have to look and I can't do that right now. If not, then the question is somewhat moot, as the only consideration is penalties to saves and combat and not the actual fear of death.

[Pen N Popper]

Fighters rest to recover their Helmet of Armor I/II and Shield Amulet abilities.  They rest a lot, or at least my fighter did.

[Nehetsrev]

Well, don't slap me too hard for these suggestions, but could some way be made to make a character begin suffering penalties for not resting at least every so often?  Seems if you can set some sort of timer for hunger and thirst there ought to be a way to set one for resting.  It likely wouldn't solve the problem of eating/drinking at inappropriate times though, but perhaps lengthening the time it takes to get hungry/thirsty might help?  Maybe the rate at which time passes in Layonara needs to be scaled down some, to perhaps half it's current rate in comparison with real-time?  If there were a penalty for lack of sleep, perhaps designated 'safe-resting areas' like inns and campsites could given a much higher boost to the counter than sleeping in a dungeon would, making resting in dangerous places more of just a quick cat-nap to regain some energy and re-memorize spells.

Experiments conducted by the U.S. Millitary have shown that most people need at least 4 hrs of uninterupted sleep each 24 hr period in order to function with out too much effect from sleep depravation.  I know this is fairly accurate as I lived that way for about 2 months strait during my tour in Germany with the U.S. Army.  Further studies have shown the optimal ammount of sleep for people in their 20's to 30's is about 6-7 hrs uninterupted sleep each 24 hr period.

Anyway, I'm just trying to throw out some ideas here that seem like they might not be too difficult to implement.  Though I suppose they might not be practical for various reasons.

[Gulnyr]

Pen N Popper - 9/22/2006  11:48 AM

Fighters rest to recover their Helmet of Armor I/II and Shield Amulet abilities.  They rest a lot, or at least my fighter did.

Jennara took a trip across Xantril several months ago with Rhizome, Plen, Enzo, and Berdin.  We got near our destination and the server crashed.  When we were all back in-game, Jennara was way out of place.  Since she had no reason to rest at all, she never saved where everyone else did.  

I probably rested Jennara more frequently at lower levels, but I could probably have her go whole quests without resting now.  

Nehetsrev - 9/22/2006  2:38 PM

Well, don't slap me too hard for these suggestions, but could some way be made to make a character begin suffering penalties for not resting at least every so often?  Seems if you can set some sort of timer for hunger and thirst there ought to be a way to set one for resting.

I don't dislike your idea, but wouldn't this do for sleeping what the hunger and thirst have done for eating and drinking, namely that people would begin resting automatically at odd times just to prevent penalties?

If there were a penalty for lack of sleep, perhaps designated 'safe-resting areas' like inns and campsites could given a much higher boost to the counter than sleeping in a dungeon would, making resting in dangerous places more of just a quick cat-nap to regain some energy and re-memorize spells.

Campsites and inns are rare in some places.  Would there be a long-term penalty for not getting a good rest?  If so, what can characters do to alleviate the problem when on long adventures on Belinara?  If not, is there really a difference between a cat nap and a good rest?  

Also, would a Druid or Ranger really mind sleeping outdoors, especially in the forest, whether there is a campsite or not?  Would a Druid sleep poorly in an inn?  Would a typical Dwarf really mind sleeping in a stone dungeon or even a cave?

[Nehetsrev]

You bring up some very good points and questions about my idea of a sleep counter, and as I said, it was not an idea witout flaws.  Perhaps the simplest solution then would indeed be to change the time-scale in Layonara so that entire days didn't pass so quickly thus characters would be hungry/thirsty less often in RL time, and still be hungry/thristy at intervals realistic to the amount of game-time passed in the world of Layonara.

[Drizzlin]

Dorganath - 9/22/2006  7:56 AM

To use an example, fighters who travel with clerics and mages will rarely need to rest at all. They can be healed by clerics (or even potions), and they can be buffed by clerics.  A fighter could, potentially, rest so infrequently as to make the hunger/thirst system almost

I wish I travled with the same fighters you do. The fighters I group with have to rest every 10 mins real life time to refresh their helm of armor II =P

[Pen N Popper]

I still like the idea of resting being dependent on not being thirsty and hungry.

[Eight-Bit]

Pen N Popper - 11/15/2006 12:15 PM I still like the idea of resting being dependent on not being thirsty and hungry.

 A lot of servers do this. If you want to rest, you are going to have to eat and drink. I am all for it, and it even would not be that complicated to script (looking at it from a distance, atleast.), or for the playerbase to adapt to it. It would add that act of desperation to a quest when everyone runs out of food, and will encourage alternative ways to eat - gathering berries, hunting a deer, drinking that oddly clear water that just sits there.