When Proper RP Infringes Upon Other Player's Enjoyment

[orth]

I want to make a bit of a statement which I've had to address a few times recently that is no set rule, but something a community of peers and friends should take into account.  I'm not really making this from a GM position, more as a peer to peer thing, it's really nothing we can control.

Within the realm of roleplay there will be cases where differing in character attitudes and feelings will cause players to not enjoy themselves as much as they would like to.  Let's begin with the common denominator, we're all here for fun.  Some people's version of fun differs from other people's naturally.  With that said, no one likes a party crasher.  If everyone is enjoying some easy listening music at a party and you show up and put on some heavy metal, things aren't going to go over so well.  Now here is where you typically hear "Well that's me, that is the kind of person I am." or in the case of our world it would be "I am just roleplaying my character."

Great, roleplay your character, you could have the most annoying egocentric bother of a PC, but you can and must still consider other player's enjoyment.  Stop and think about the ramifications of your actions.  Are you going to cause people to log off?  Is that what you want?  Is that a victory to you?

This sort of issue is exponentiated in quests, where people who wouldn't usually be associated with others feel they have a right to belong in the quest because they signed up and showed up on time.  Then other players are forced to make a decision, put up with this person through the quest or simply leave.

Let's not forget the GM running these quests too, who suddenly has PC confrontation after confrontation to deal with when they've put a ton of time and effort into another story.  Yes, this is a living breathing world and complications are going to arise but once again, ask yourself, are the other player's enjoying this complication, getting a good laugh out of it, providing some good rp in between the two characters or are they sighing, rolling their eyes and debating quitting the quest because all you seem to want is the spotlight on yourself?

Also to make matter's worse, the GM usually has to begin dealing with your character's actions through in character means and suddenly the focus is completely on the person causing complications.  Well how is that fun for everyone else?  Now you have even more personal attention devoted to your character as it detracts for everyone else.  You know what most players are thinking... "Great, they just screwed up everything, and they get rewarded with their own story line/segue/cdq".  Is that fair?

I guess in summary all I am trying to say is be a little more considerate of your fellow players.  Without them, things will get empty.

[Leanthar]

Well stated and I agree. Common sense and common courtesy goes a long ways.

[LynnJuniper]

If I am permitted to say a few things:

First there are some well explained and good points here. I can see where this post is coming from as I’m sure I’ve been both subjected to this kind of behavior as well as the cause of it. However, that is, how I believe, the world runs.

You , orth , address in your post “Are the characters enjoying the rp” Well, I should hope they are. Not everything can be birthday cakes and roses, and I think some conflict is only fair. While understanding all that the Gms of a quest are required to ‘put up’ with, one would think that while playing their characters before being a GM, they’d come to expect certain things. I agree with the fact that in normal circumstances these people would not normally radiate to the same group. However on a quest it is completely a different situation.People are encouraged (or forced, however you see it) to join a diverse group of adventurers, some of which they would never see themselves involved with.  A normal reaction or alternative to any conflict within the said group or quest would be to simply avoid the people who will give you problems on a quest. This becomes a problem though, when you see the same names signed up for every quest available in your time period. Trying to avoid conflict becomes impossible unless you sacrifice your time/sleep/personal duties to find quests outside the time you are available in, obmit quests with GMs you happen to like or have had previous involvement/interest in or to simply stop questing and avoid the people who your character does not get along with all together. There is of course ignoring the conflict, but that, again is hard and seemingly an out of character arrangement that would not other wise happen. Rp should not in most cases be forced. I agree that certain regulations are needed but this kind of thing can only be put to so much use.

Being considerate of the fellow player base is understandable. But what must also be taken into consideration is the character themselves. Who they are, what they do. Just like a conversation had in IRC last night that had direct connection with some of the issues written here: Sure, some things may upset the RP of others, but some of those things may also be in character and interruption may be , indeed, intentional if that’s what the character calls for.

I understand that this works both ways, and that if one is going to ask of these things to apply to themselves its also going to have to apply to other people even if they are acting out towards them.

Let me say this though: Any issues taken up with a particular character should stay in that character. If for any reason attitudes towards one character start to cross over to attitudes towards another character played by the same player, that is griefing and should never be permitted for any reason.

So  I guess in short: While Understanding where you, orth are coming from, and agreeing with some of the general points, I just wanted to state that in every situation I don’t think this would be completely fair, and also that it would be hard to monitor this on a case to case basis as well.

So In Conclusion; Players its ultimately up to you to make good choices and to decide when enough is enough. We -are- all here, afterall, to have fun.

With Respect, As Always,

Jess/Rhynn/Lynn

[Filatus]

Totally agree with you Orth. Layonara should in the first place be about fun and not only your own, but also that of others.

[Leanthar]

@LynnJuniper, I will just say this. When players are able to keep OOC and IC separate things tend to work fine or are easily worked out/through between players or rarely with GM intervention. A few people have a difficult time of keeping that separation and that is when problems begin to arise. And it gets worse when people can't admit to that problem (OOC/IC blending) and making excuses that seem to work at the time, which is when problems become even more exaggerated. Then heated tempers/arguments ensue and then things get really out of hand.

Then you have the whole cycle of player abc causing constant issues/problems/concerns with player xyz, 123, and others etc.... That is when things get even worse because now it is more than just one or two people….it turns in to one (or however many) bad apple(s) ruining it for the many (or however many) players—something like that can not and should not be tolerated. There is one thing to be RP’ing a character and quite another when that “RP” blends over in to RL and that gray line is crossed.

Again I will say... common sense and common courtesies. If one can not use that in a given situation then one needs to step back from the game (it is a game) and take a breather or two.

[LynnJuniper]

@L

Agreed to every thing written. As I said with my final sentence: It is ultimately up to the players to know when enough is enough and I for one have faith in most of them.

However I can see where this little informational post may be needed to keep people on the right track

Once again, Good post orth

[Etinfall]

Nice Post Orth.
   One point stands out to me. That is where someone is always trying to be the center of attention. I understand that we all have characters and we all want to roll play them, but sometimes you need to sit back and let someone else have the spotlight. When you get into a large quest and there are 3 or 4 people fighting to be the center of all, it kinda ruins the quest. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the focus...but most of the time I will sit back and just be a supporting character. When the DM picks me for something I get excited and roll play the best I can. But sometimes when the DM picks me, the attention grabber will step in and take over. That may be your character's personality and you are just roll playing, but it causes others to step back.  So as said before, think of other players before charging in to the quest. Every one of us want to have fun.  Etin

[Weeblie]

If a character are doing something "mean" to some other character BUT both players can laugh at it afterwards: It's fine.

Otherwise: Avoid doing that.

Simple rule of thumb.

[Drizzlin]

Etinfall - 10/27/2006  6:32 PM    Nice Post Orth.
    One point stands out to me. That is where someone is always trying to be the center of attention. I understand that we all have characters and we all want to roll play them, but sometimes you need to sit back and let someone else have the spotlight. When you get into a large quest and there are 3 or 4 people fighting to be the center of all, it kinda ruins the quest. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the focus...but most of the time I will sit back and just be a supporting character. When the DM picks me for something I get excited and roll play the best I can. But sometimes when the DM picks me, the attention grabber will step in and take over. That may be your character's personality and you are just roll playing, but it causes others to step back.  So as said before, think of other players before charging in to the quest. Every one of us want to have fun.  Etin

 To me this is the most important and well thought post about this kind of issue in a long time. I think ultimately this is the cause of OOC/IC "blending" of problems during a quest. I think sometimes players (not singling anyone out, just saying) do try to take the entire spot light and that can upset others and make them not want to ever quest with you again. Whether a player intends this or not, I have seen it too often on quests.

[Vyris]

Drizzlin - 10/30/2006  6:38 PM  

Etinfall - 10/27/2006  6:32 PM    Nice Post Orth.
    One point stands out to me. That is where someone is always trying to be the center of attention. I understand that we all have characters and we all want to roll play them, but sometimes you need to sit back and let someone else have the spotlight. When you get into a large quest and there are 3 or 4 people fighting to be the center of all, it kinda ruins the quest. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be the focus...but most of the time I will sit back and just be a supporting character. When the DM picks me for something I get excited and roll play the best I can. But sometimes when the DM picks me, the attention grabber will step in and take over. That may be your character's personality and you are just roll playing, but it causes others to step back.  So as said before, think of other players before charging in to the quest. Every one of us want to have fun.  Etin

 To me this is the most important and well thought post about this kind of issue in a long time. I think ultimately this is the cause of OOC/IC "blending" of problems during a quest. I think sometimes players (not singling anyone out, just saying) do try to take the entire spot light and that can upset others and make them not want to ever quest with you again. Whether a player intends this or not, I have seen it too often on quests.

 I saw this a lot as a GM, and tried to compensate by making everyone roll ability checks, and taking the high rollers and giving them the lead for that particular phase by dropping them each a different tidbit, and I tried to communicate with all the players on the quest, some of the low rollers got some pretty humorous responses from me to be sure.  I as a player have fairly well given up on a lot of questing. This isn't to say that the GM's aren't superb or that the plots aren't worthwhile. What I am saying is that from my own personal point of view it gets to be far too frustrating for me to be in a group of 15 people, 7 of whom just refuse to listen, 4 others are intent on slaughtering everything between point A -> B whether it has anything to do with the quest or not, and three others who seem to take turns tap dancing in and out of the RP spotlight and solving the quest for the rest of us. I just don't enjoy myself that way.  I enjoy quests on a much smaller 5-7 person scale. I know, this isn't really feasible, There would have to be a 15-1 PC/GM ratio to make that even come close, and that quest groups are generaly large to enable as many people to join in and have fun as possible, so I'm not faulting that.  I remember not long ago, at least I don't think it was that long ago where ideas got knocked around about limiting quests to one series a month per PC, or giving everyone quest tickets, like ship tickets, you give one to the GM at the start of each session, and when you spend all 5/month you are out. But... whatever.  I guess the point I was getting around to making is that I think a LOT of people quest because they want XP, not really because they want to be a part of the story. I generaly choose not to quest because it becomes a frustration rather than an enjoyment, and yeah, it's a bit frustrating on that level.  Anyway. I KNOW Leathar hears enough complaints in the course of a day regarding Layonara, or the way 'X' is, and why does 'Z' have to be like that, because it inconveniences player 'Y' So please don't think I'm offering undue criticism. The GM team works thier collective butts off, and they do it better than anyone else on the PW NWN circuit. All I really wanted to do was illustrate how the RP hogging and general mob mentality of large quest groups has turned me away from actively seeking out quests.  Vyris

[Acacea]

Etin's post about those who will specifically take the attention from someone else to be the focus is an example of actions that are pretty low, but done by people who either might not even realize what they're doing, or maybe just can't stand for others to have some weight in decision making. Makes it less than a good time for others involved either way.

However, in other less obvious situations I think such attitudes need to be carefully thought about before accusations come on. For instance, is someone taking charge because no one else is doing anything or no progress is being made? Has the quest been running longer than you've been on it? Are there in game reasons for it, and is there any IC reason that it shouldn't happen that way?

If it's hard to think of reasons it's evil and oppressive other than that some people are feeling put out, perhaps it is the mutterers that are wanting the spotlight and resenting others for it. It's easy to point fingers, but I've found that the ones quickest to do it often have spite or envy to blame.

I've seen quest leaders try hard to involve others with no success--laying out information and always saying "what do you think?" to the others and letting all talk about it before giving their suggestions. When tasks that really don't need anyone specific to do them come up, they've asked people with less opportunities to do them rather than taking over it themselves or allowing the more enthusiastic to grab it while others are silent--not to be condescending, just so others get even a little bit of singled out time and can do something if they haven't had the chance.

I've also seem the same quest leaders slandered in and out of character because they present the best course of action and no one argues or thinks of alternatives, or because they have attended every session where others are brand-new and thus have more information (I've had this one pointed at me a few times heh), or worse, because they're higher level and have higher skills or combat abilities...even if it is on an epic quest and low levels are allowed solely because of not wanting to restrict based on level and to keep in mind that people can contribute things other than combat.

In such situations I've seen people actually ditch the point of the quest just to whisper amongst themselves and make snide comments because they feel other people are taking over, but never bothering to try and contribute themselves. In a rare but worst-case (for me anyway) scenario, I've seen people who whisper loudly about a quest-hogger (while resisting attempts to pull them in by being apathetic and insulting), commit to acting the same way towards the people they feel victimized by in other quests once they get a chance to grab for attention, except for real--by ignoring them or shutting them out entirely to the point where one needs to get information from other people in the quest because the ones who triumphantly ascend to the spotlight won't let others in on it.

I completely agree with orth's post (though I've noticed that that's easy enough to say), especially that sometimes people blend IC and OOC WAY too much and let the overlap go too far in terms of what should and should not happen, all under the guise of "well it's in character!" Leaving a quest because of in-character morals is, I feel, very different from stomping off (or causing others to stomp off) because of a blend of IC and OOC drama.

I just have seen way too much of that drama start from the very topic of "who is doing what and how much it offends me OOC and never mind how much sense it makes," to want any cries of agreement go unresponded to, even though they're not meant in that way...Just for most, it is easy to want something yourself so much that you feel people who have it are denying you the privilege, and so people often automatically shout in agreement and bad mouth people like GMs, WLs, the rich, the high levels, the frequent questers, etc without thinking, simply because they are in a position to be bad-mouthed. After all, they're up there and you're down there! There must be something you can blame them for! This doubles as "agreeing" with the above in the subtle stabby way, like "well they're worked their way to those levels, I think they deserve a little favoritism " which is just "FAVORITES FAVORITES FAVORITES" hidden under a veil of "it's okay you suck so much."

It just feels really sucky to spend a huge chunk of your GMed quest time trying to fill people in (I have told the same story way too many times to people who may never return), and have the people you're trying to include bad-mouth you behind your back because you appear to be in charge. I've had it happen and it makes you wonder what the point of doing it is in the first place.

I'm not denying that there are real problems--the kinds of things that inspire these kinds of threads are obvious indicators--but merely cautioning against quickly shifting them to another without thinking about it. The whole point of this thread seems to be crying out to say ENOUGH OF THE DRAMA! and having to go through and wavering into things that inspire comments on which quests it has happened on or if it happened at all and to whom just seems like more drama.

I wish it could be as simple as saying, "Quest hoggers, stop being arrogant quest snatchers and let someone else do something for a change," "Wallflowers step up and say something instead of hanging around silently, chances are people much prefer you being involved than just a statue," and "Conspiracy members (or quest hoggers that aren't being indulged), stop being drama queens/kings and just roll with it, it's much more fun for everyone!"

Such anonymous postings however will only get everyone looking at those around them, pointing CheshireCat-Style in every direction...how many people honestly do such things consciously thinking, "I'm going to be such a jerk right now, boy I love ruining everyone's fun!" A few maybe, but for most humans our perspectives tend to immediately lead us to martyr ourselves rather than step back and look at things from a detached and rational view to weigh the situation. So while I also agree... I also think these are things everyone would agree to, and if no one was responsible then we wouldn't have a problem.

[Vyris]

Actually, part of the problem I had as a GM was having 10-15 people trying to participate, player tells, people wanting to roll skill checks, the DM channel, party channel, death channel, logins and logouts... all of this in an atmosphere of trying to keep things progressing in a measured pace, while making sure my encounters were straight on my hotkey buttons, I had the right effects cued up and that I wasn't going to go running roughshod into smaller groups of people that were just out collecting CNR or something. Being a GM is a lot of juggling. Even then at times it was hard to catch everything, which also contributes to a few people getting more attention than others.

This is why I tried to 'ambush' players that were on my quests and give them 30-60 minute side quests that tied in and allowed them to get something from that short series that they could bring to the table when the next official quest time was scheduled.

Vyris

[Acacea]

It wasn't really a reply to your post, as I hadn't seen it before I clicked reply. Nor a suggestion of "everyone try and grab actions, and repeat the same rolls and demand everyone get the same tells!" Many times it's best to delegate, which is much easier when you are familiar with the people you are questing with. The quests are still hard then, but so much easier when you know the strengths of others and also allow those to be used.

The point was that in my experience there are many complaints from people who actually do nothing at all. I keep logs of every quest and in a frustrated moment searched for anything at all said by someone complaining about others leading...and the only word spoken was a non-related response, or else everything was done in whispers out of my hearing, heh. Not saying to flood the GM, just if you have a problem with Leaders (different from hoggers), take some initiative yourself, as I don't see a lot of it except in the goal to shove someone else out of a position.

As a side note, the side things on a non-official quest are great, but unfortunately that really can't be done by everyone, in my opinion. I cringe just at the thought how it's a lot of fun when done by one group, and a shocking example of scandal when done with another.

Edit too, also not a direct response to Etin but rather on how easy it is to agree with everything, as I think the kinds of experiences he mentions are easier to identify than those we just feel vague resentment about.

[Vyris]

Agreed, it's easy to sit and gripe, but nothing is going to change for you if you don't do something about it yourself.

//Edit
 @Acacea I didn't think you were commenting on anything I said, but you said stuff I wanted to elaborate on.

Vyris

[Etinfall]

I really agree with you Acacea. When I see someone take charge and at the same time allow others to contribute, I know it is going to be a good time. One thing I refer to is when the quest is going on and there are 4 people trying to get thier life story out. All the text is very hard to keep up. And when some people always have to be at the front, even when others are there at the time.
  And this is not always the case. I have been on more than plenty where it all flows smoothly, everybody doing thier share.
 
  One thing Vy said I always have questions about. It is when people are always doing checks on quests. I usually have to ask the DM what his/her style is. Do you like the random checks, or do you ask when it is needed? I like when the DM asks for checks. Either to the group, a part of group, or as a single. Wehn I start seeing rolls I start to wonder, did I miss something? I even scroll up to see if I missed a check request. It seems to be contagous too. Some DM's will say, roll a check as long you emote what and why. *Cole watches the tunnel for signs of movement" *spot check*
 
  Etin

[Guardian 452]

*BUMP*

some still need to read this!!!


The Leilon Arms lost two patrons tonight because of antics for attention.... *sighs*

No I dont think people act this way with the sole intent of ruining things for others.... but I wish folks would look past their noses now and then too.

[solarina]

SOmetimes it can be fun other times it is NOT. Today someone stole my familar and due to server rules i was * forced * to act differently then is normal , which for any wizzard would be to attack the thief after confronting the thief and thief wont give it back. Forceing me to RP for its release rather then doing what my char would do which is attack to get her best friend back ! ( the no PvP rule ) I had always thought you can "" unsummon "" a familar sending it back to whence it came magicly , but was told this is not the case. So hence ive someone running around with my best friend in a jar and cant PvP to  get it back. Kinda ruined my night , while others may have enjoyed such , to me , given server non PvP rules , i just felt violated and forced. to be told "" well my char hits for 20's and has 89 hp "" makes no difference , my char would die for any friend , let alone her best friend. So to server rules my hands werre tied in my reaction to the theivery and i do not have ** fun ** being forced to do actions which arent in char ( RP ).

after almost 2 hours of this i just logged.

[Dorganath]

Um...having only heard one side of this, it sounds like several things happened here:
  1) Someone forced an *emoted* action without giving your character or the target (in this case, a familiar) the chance to resist or avoid it.
  2) Someone was hiding behind the no-PvP rule, knowing that you could not immediately react as your character would.
  IF either of these was the case, then the "someone" in question should know better. Also, if this happened as you descibed, you could attempt to contact a GM to either settle the matter or authorize PvP.
  I can only make assumptions, and if I had to guess, this happened in Hlint, which in itself is a specific no PvP zone with even greater rules against this kind of thing.
  All I can suggest after-the-fact is that if you have logs or screenshots and you wish for the other player to be spoken to, then please forward them onto someone in the GM Team. If not, consider doing so in the future in case something like this happens again.
  Again, taking the incident at face value by your description alone, it's unfortunate that someone felt the need to do this. I'll not say anything further on the incident as I do not have the other side of story.

[solarina]

someone else had to roll for the " familar to not be caught "" the roll failed i guess. It was fone for the 1st half hour but things went way way way to far. This took slightly over two hours of my in game time and my life. No fun , No exp , missed out on adventuring ect. Tryed to say via tells that i was not enjoying this and mentioned from the get go at moment #1 that had there been no anti PvP rule i would have attacked ( probaly died but hey thats all fair and its RP ).

Basicly i got ** forced ** into a long ordeal to try to get the thing back it took way long and in general it was zero fun for me and being forced to RP and quest to get the thing back , for the kinda long time this entire thing was going on , was IMO too far.

regretably i logged after being fustrated after the 2 hour mark. My entire evening has been shot to someone elses view of " fun times "

this certiny applys

""2) Someone was hiding behind the no-PvP rule, knowing that you could not immediately react as your character would.""

no logs no but everyone was there for it. I dont ask for anything to happen over this , i just mention this becaise peopel realy need to think of the impact there so called "" fun "" has on another and in sitituations regaurding stealing anything of a player  and forcing them into an overly long RP to maybe get it back is extreamly annoying and time consuming for no reward or fun.

folks if someone tells you via tell that what yer forcing on another persons char is not fun , not welcome and ruining their evening , please do stop and consider your actions While you may find it all in great fun ect , if your forcing someone into it over long , its no longer fun times, Your robbing someone of game / play time , potential exp , quests , loots , char development ect.

[Dorganath]

If you sent tells to the other player that you, as a player, were not enjoying it, then that should have been respected. To continue after an OOC statement like that starts getting into the realm of griefing, and we do not allow that here. At the first OOC notice, the other player should have RPed it out as quickly as possible and ended it then and there.