The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Alignments and Morals  (Read 4093 times)

Gulnyr

Re: Alignments and Morals
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2007, 11:07:08 AM »
Okay.  Now that I understand you are basically just arguing philosophy, that changes the nature of the discussion.  

I think trying to make a philosophical discussion out of it is kinda silly, but that's just me, and, y'know, whatever makes you happy.  If the points on the alignment compass had unique names, like, say, Squif, Blebox, Goldoon, and Ert, then there couldn't really be any sort of philosophizing about whether real world good and... uh... D&D Blebox were properly related and made any sort of sense in the bigger picture, since Blebox doesn't exist outside the rules.  Blebox would be understood as just the name for a certain set of concepts that describe a moral position underlying the motives of characters within the game world.  It happens that Blebox is spelled 'Good' in the final draft, but it's the same thing, it still doesn't exist outside the rules, and the relevance of what it is based on is only as important as the relevance of what weapon damages or hit points are based on (which, in my opinion, are far cloudier and much sillier than anything to do with alignment, but since they are game concepts that help facilitate play, it's all good).  

Since the alignments are game concepts only, trying to compare them to real world things just feels like trying to compare D&D magic or the Force to real world things.  Have at, I guess.  I'm easy.
 

lonnarin

Re: Alignments and Morals
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2007, 12:21:10 PM »
Exactly.  All Paladins are Goldoonish Blebox, not Lawful Good.  If they were Lawful Good, then they wouldn't be running around hacking the heads off of monster children and running around in town with their swords drawn screaming "You there!  Thou art, EVIL... remove thyself or I'll KILL YOU!"

That's philosophically not very Lawful or Good, but stereotypically Goldoonish Blebox as far as our ruleset is concerned.  Philosophy can discredit good and law, but can't even begin to touch the protective layer of Goldoonish Bleboxianism, since they define themselves absolutely.
 

Acacea

Re: Alignments and Morals
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2007, 02:32:48 PM »
jrizz, it wasn't so much "that's silly, of course you can't just write that you did that!!" and pointing out how ridiculous it was, but more, "I don't think that's a good comparison, since it was not suggested that the evil equivalent was any less ridiculous." So it just didn't seem to have a lot of purpose, is all.



Lonn, the faction thing seems more the fault of that in fantasy, there exist undeniably inherently evil races at all, not necessarily the wanton extermination of them. They're more like the invading aliens of shock-scifi, than just different looking humans who are horribly oppressed. When it doesn't cross the fantasy line, still just because factions both scream evil at each other doesn't mean either of them are good, with how the system is meant to be used. I mean, a paladin say, killing a good, innocent drow in cold blood has committed an evil act...it's just that there much is rarely such thing as an innocent drow in fantasy-land, unlike how things would really be.

They've made everything nice and clear cut for everyone, and ensured that when slaying evil monsters, a paladin will almost always be justified - it's an issue of both annoyance and relief, really. On the one hand, a little too clear cut and simply not how things work in life, but on the other, most people do play to get away from some aspects of life, after all. It's much more relaxing to be justified in hatred and always have an enemy you're allowed to kill on sight and not romp through all social issues of years past, I'm sure. Instead, love each other, hate the orcs! Everyone knows that humankind gets along a lot better once the invading squids come. :P

Fantasy humans are light years ahead of the real world when it comes to accepting other cultures and colors of their own species! Rather than touch that, they made goblins and orcs!

And really, adhering to the laws and taboos of one's society in D&D is more covered by being Lawful, anyway... a man might slay an orc from the land of good orcs no on knew about, on sight according to the guides of social acceptance in his neck of the woods without so much as a warning... it's not really about morals anymore at that point. Killing a child of an opposite faction is not really about morals anymore. What is perceived as a necessity of war is rarely considered pure and good in all senses of the words, right?







And I dunno jrizz, stepping out of dogma is far more important than stepping out of alignment, for a cleric. If one's dogma is essentially to be righteous defender of a particular moral stance, then technically breaking dogma and breaking alignment go hand in hand, but still the order is the other way around.

They are not meant to be prisons that you are punished for venturing out of. Few people are their alignments 'all the time.' It represents a trend of actions, and for a character of a LG mindset, the act of slipping to a side alignment in a single act on a bad day is in itself a 'ding' because it is against what he believes. "I broke that law, I should not have done that, I have failed in my duty," and all that junk, unless it is a divine character and in breaking a law he broke a point of dogma and it came with divine consequences. A LE character gets sick and disgusted with pent up rage at having to tolerate or even praise the lesser men around him without doing as he wishes and putting them all to the torch. For now. Or something.

They're guidelines. Not strongboxes. To stay on the road and in the right mindset and all that. Venture too far out of it and you don't really have the same character anymore, because trends are slow to change.

I ran out of croissants to fuel my essays and feel that I've dissolved into disjointed rambling (moreso than usual) aloud (sort of), so I'm done too until future boxes are delivered. *nods a few times*
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Alignments and Morals
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2007, 12:16:09 AM »
Excellent, excellent, excellent points by Darkstorme, Acacea, Lonnarin, and Gulnyr. I can't really add anything to what they've said except to reiterate a point I've been yapping about in every single alignment thread that's been made in the past year or two.

Quote from: Stephen Zuckerman
"Alignments" do not dictate one's actions.

"Alignments" describe trends in one's actions.
 

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2026, SimplePortal