A Discussion on leveling.

[Pibemanden]

Just a quick point:

I find it funny when someone of level 21+ says "Levels don't matter now" ... That's because you got there!

It might sound wrong comming from me, but I have been her for over two years now, and yes I can pretty much go anywhere if I would like to. But the point I am trying to make is that it wouldn't make it more fun for me to be level 40 than it was when I was level 1-20, sure I hadn't seen as much back then but that wasn't what made it fun for me, it was rather the challenge of being in a new group finding out the dynamics and such.
And back when I was level 15 most of the fun was sitting in Hlint talking to whoever passed through, Storold isn't known as the official benchwarmer of Hlint for nothing but those days are gone now so most of my time are spend either traveling somewhere or sitting in Hempstead talking to people or staring at the lack of people there. Not that I am complaining here but that is just how things are there most of the time.
Right now it hurts more than before having less hours avalible to be online because you don't get to know all that many if you don't travel around looking for people or know someone who knows another someone you haven't met. But as long as you know someone that you play with a lot who is around your level and likes to travel with you, you shouldn't be in trouble. However if this isn't the case you will spend a lot of time doing nothing or running around alone crafting and such which in the end wont get you much XP because you cn't really solo anything within your CR unless you are really lucky and then it is only a few areas or such

[Odranoela]

In response to Dorg: I'm glad to hear about the fix and the changes for better and yeah I didn't mean every epic character got there real quick, I know there are some players that are here forever compared to my time on the server and they worked hard be it hunting or roleplaying to get there. Sorry if that came out rude on my previous post.

To Pibemanden: I see your point and understand it.

"Right now it hurts more than before having less hours avalible to be online because you don't get to know all that many if you don't travel around looking for people or know someone who knows another someone you haven't met. But as long as you know someone that you play with a lot who is around your level and likes to travel with you, you shouldn't be in trouble. However if this isn't the case you will spend a lot of time doing nothing or running around alone crafting and such which in the end wont get you much XP because you cn't really solo anything within your CR unless you are really lucky and then it is only a few areas or such"

Sometimes is hard to keep up with your friends, if you don't have the time available. =]
The good side of this is always meeting new people and having new generations of "friends you hang out/hunt/RP with"
I let some of it bug me in the beggining, but it was making me not enjoy my play time, worried with levels and keeping up.
Once I let all that go and started meeting some great new players and old players characters I saw what's most important for me;
It's making the little time I have as fun as possible for me and these people.

[Skywatcher]

The one thing that makes this issue compilcated is the difference in peoples play time and the correlation of that play time to quests and other people of similar bent.  I happen to be blessed with a lot of play time at this stage of my life and I happen to also have been very blessed to have access to a lot of quests.  I agree with Pibemanden that quests and RP are the best part of Layo.  I leveled pretty quickly since I've been here but that is because I was able to do lots of quests (3-4 a week some times) even with giving up almost 500000 XP waiting for a CDQ for a PrC (I had to have it subracted to stay at 15th level since I had to get 5 levels of the PrC before 20).  I also have 6-8 hours a day to play right now and a bunch of regular people that play around the same times.  I think that way over half of my XP has been given by GMs for RP or for quests.  I am probably on the extreme end of how fast you can level and still stay in the spirit of the RP server.  

The other end is the person who only has a couple of hours every so often and is in a weird time zone.  It's very hard to get XP any way at all in that case.  

So even though it's possible to grind and level fast just by that, it is also possible to level fast just because you play a lot.  I don't think it's really fair to just look at the number of months someone has been playing a character to see if they have levelled too fast.  I applaud those who have worked much harder than I have to get XP based on their play style and play times.  I consider myself very luck to be able to partake of Layo the way I have been able to.  

I guess I am just trying to urge people not to stereotype people simply based on their months vs. level.  It may be a good first look way of telling if someone is power gaming but it's not always an indicator of being in the spirit of the server.  

On another note I think its to be expected that adventuring will increase dramaitcally when a new update is put into effect and that once most people have seen the new stuff that they can things will settle back down to more sitting around and telling tales.  There is a cycle of generating tales and telling tales that is natural and not a bad thing.

I am not disagreeing in a general sense with anything posted in this thread.  I think for the most part the points are valid but you always have to be careful when you generalize to remember that not every individual case fits the general pattern.  Most of us that play here are statisical anomalies in one way or another.  

[Pseudonym]

The other end is the person who only has a couple of hours every so often and is in a weird time zone.

Yes, our weird timezone may mean slow level progression but it also means we get golden beaches, an ocean between us and Canada, lengthy summers, Elle Macpherson, real football, etc, etc, etc!

Oops, me get a thread off topic? That'd be unusual. Carry on.

[Skywatcher]

*grins* "weird" was not meant to suggest substandard in any way other than number of playing buddies available.  I agree with you on the football thing by the way.

[stragen]

real football

There are four codes that are refer to football, which one did you mean, Aussie Rules, League, Union or Soccer?

My guess (based on your geography, statue and social background) is Aussie Rules.

[Pseudonym]

Ha! The real football is the game they play in Heaven. The one where the World Cup has 20 nations participating (-not- just one! *squints at the Americans*) and three billion tv viewers.

Anyways, back on thread, I believe we were at skywatcher is the devil and iceyfire his chief fast-levelling demonic minion ....

[Shadowblade225]

I'm going to butt in here and say that I believe that in a truly RPing server, characters who have progressed rapidly seldom have the depth of character history as one who has taken more time to level.  There are always exceptions to this, but in the end, this holds true for most.  The only IC rationale for quick leveling is that some character is a "young upstart", "gifted or quick learned".  If the RP is there, then fine.

However, the less character history, the less depth, influence, power, authority, or reputation that character tends to have.  There are "ifs" and "buts" with all of this though and seldom will anyone be satisfied with some striking of balance regarding the whole leveling issue.  

The uneven times to play will always be an unfortunate issue, but then when one considers that they do not have to be an epic level character to have sway in the world (and in many cases have much more sway than the epics present), this I hope will quell the issue to some extent.  Take pride in your character and know that you're lowly level 9 may be percieved much more mightily than that "young upstart" level 25 by NPCs and PCs alike.  That's the beauty of an RP server vs PG server. He who has the most influence wins and influence isn't based solely on sword or spell.

Lastly, I would like to offer a friendly reminder, that while this is a game for entertainment, from an RP standpoint, keep the RP going within these little adventures and quests.  What I mean by that is -

On Quests:

 - Higher level characters don't necessarily call all the shots.  All character opinions are valuable disregarding character reputation/class/alignment.
 - Know your characters role. (This I think is done very well by many).  

On adventures:

- Don't party with characters your character shouldn't be partying with simply so you can explore, loot, and gain experience.
- Don't get into the kill, loot, wait, then kill "groove".  It's against server rules and just horrific RP.

There.  Now I feel at least somewhat satiated.

[Tanman]

Spot on SB225. I agree 100% on what you have to say about this.
 

[/I][/B]
  So even though it's possible to grind and level fast just by that, it is also possible to level fast just because you play a lot. I don't think it's really fair to just look at the number of months someone has been playing a character to see if they have levelled too fast.
 

[/I][/B]
  I would also like to add even though it is possible to level fast just because one plays a lot, I do not think that it is mandatory. Just because a character plays for a long period of time on the server, it does not mean that they have to gain tons of XP. A player can choose when to go adventuring. They can choose when to sit down when to Roleplay, they can choose when to craft.



   When I played my sorcerer on most days the most XP that I would gain in any one sitting would be 1000-2000XP sometimes none at all. I spent a lot of my time in Hlint and other places talking to people. . .Building relationships  and have fun role-playing.  Sometimes I would go out adventuring but often I would turn it down because of my character’s nature and beliefs. I have even seen cases where players have asked to have RP XP taken away from their characters because they felt they have not earnt it, or they thought that they were going too fast. A person can ask a GM to do that for them. For the record, as a GM I have been asked to take away XP by a player for their character because they  felt they did not deserve the award.


  I tend to look at the actions of what characters have done and the rate they are gaining level to gauge if they are powerlevelling or not.  Characters  who level quickly but RP and sit down a lot tend to go to a lot of quests, or they are being awarded RP XP. I think that even though this type of gaining levels is reasonable and is even better if the character sometimes pulls out of a quest because it doesn’t fit with their player.
  Now remember I am not saying that it is in bad spirit people shouldn’t be adventuring.  This is after all a Role-play Action Server. Rather,  what I am saying is that it is that just because a character is on for long periods of time, doesn’t mean that they are going/or have to gain a gross amount of XP. It is the player’s choice to gain XP.  Players get to decide what their players want to do. If they decide to go adventuring….its is their choice to make.

[Chongo]

To get back on the initial track...  I'm going to pull out SquareKnot's data again from 120 days recorded last summer....

Average Time Played by Layonara Characters During this Time:  
5202 minutes
Highest Time Played by a Single Layonara Character During this Time:
60675 minutes
Average Level of Characters Playing During this Time Period:
 9.31
Number of Characters Playing Over 20,000 Minutes:
58
Average Level of Characters Playing Over 20,000 Minutes:
16.59
Number of Characters Playing Between 10,000 and 19,999 Minutes:
71
Average Level of Characters Playing Between 10,000 and 19,999 Minutes:
16.1
Number of Characters Playing Between 1,000 and 9,999 Minutes:
343
Average Level of Characters Playing Between 1,000 and 9,999 Minutes:
9.35

I'll spare all the rest of the junk in that lengthy post of mine though and I'm not going to peddle any of the points except the following.  :rolleyes:

It's not possible to hit both ends of the bell curve.  

It never will be.  And I think Layonara has been fine tuning the game for so long, geared towards building an RP environment, that rate of progression probably isn't going to get any better for the server.

I really don't think it will get any better then where it currently is.  If we were to try, we probably wouldn't see the actual results* of it for quite some time, making it even more futile, even if we do have another year of NWN Layo.  *Results being the effect on the server as a roleplay server, which would take some time to observe I should think

I'm having a great time online right now, and that's saying something because I have a chronic distaste for playing in my own areas.  So I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the people around, the excitement, and the roleplay.  I don't think we need any changes.  Things are good.

I do see issues with new players.  Pibe, to my surprise, made a very good point.  :p  The problem with having some of the new hubs on central/ east is going to be an issue for low levels.  I actually almost put a level 6 area off the Thunder xroads to complete the all-level pull aspect to it.  I think the best we can do is try and get back on West with our characters, try and expose people to the portal to Dalanthar and the safe routes there, so if they do just want to be with people, who have often times now been pooled up at the Thunder xroads, they can go to that campfire without fear of being in trouble.  Yeah, there's the issue of lack of adventure, but let's face it... 95%* of the server is sticking with their main characters right now... so it's kinda headed down that road any way you slice it (*79% of statistics are made up on the spot).

Regarding the point of levels, rates, roleplay, whatever... I've heard it a thousand times over on these forums.  You know, there are so many bloody variables compounded by multiple forms of disparity, be them time invested, timezones, builds, social aptitude, preferences, whatever... that it's all mostly a moot and unrecordable point.  You can say that you have to take x amount of time to make an RP character at a certain level but I say it's bunk.  You're either roleplaying while you're doing what you're doing or you're not.  

The only fair statement in any of it, and the one to take to heart in your playstyle, is if your actions warrant a place in the minds of the many people on the server.  If they don't... hey, I say it's fine.  I've got a character like that, Abi, who I had a fair bit of fun with.  Empty feeling in my impact on the world or not, it was fun, he faded out, that's that.  I know I'm not in a place to get out the measuring stick on it with people who have made their mark, and I'm okay with it.   I can think of loads of characters like this, and it doesn't mean they're evil or a detriment to things.  They are roleplaying as they do what it is they do, they just don't stick to the minds of the rest of the players in the world.  At the end of the day most of us want to be in the minds of the rest of the players, and many who have leveled fast change their course a bit with that character, hey maybe she's level 23, but it's not too late to stick with it and make a lasting impression.  Some start a new character, one that they can go from scratch with, trying to make sure they have a character impact on everyone they possibly can.  I have no preference for either track, and I never think it's too late.  You can wake up one day and decide that it's time to make that stamp on the world.  It just means for some, that while they've been roleplaying (perhaps wonderfully), they're starting at level 1 many times on this course.  A lot of posters like to overstate this, say that such and such equates to a lost cause.  It has been continually proven false.

At a certain point, maybe the beginning for some, maybe the end for others... it's wanting to be in the minds of the other players.  Makes it feel like it's all worthwhile.  And for that I'll go with the investment clause that people like to overstate.  But roleplay is roleplay, it's playing a role.  Maybe you're the fire that burns out fast and never overly bright.  Maybe you're the slow burner that everyone comes to know.  Or, maybe you're the gigantic hellball that continually strikes... I'll leave that one to the evils.  But, the only lesson I've learned in any of this is to last.  You'll overcome any of the negative points possible because as a matter of course you'll learn that you want at least a little bit of a slow burner that everyone knows.

[Polak76]

Shadowblade brought up a good point:

Higher level characters don't necessarily call all the shots. All character opinions are valuable disregarding character reputation/class/alignment.

Well Said!

I'll expand on it.

One of my gripes about people flying past me in levels is that when they begin from level 1, they're all respective to my char, hang around and roleplay with my character, interact and adventure whilst grabbing plenty of XP along the way.  Then all of a sudden, when they pass my characters level they become disrepecting, do not wish to adventure with me or aid my character in the mini-quests the way I used to aid theirs.  This type of thing is clearly metaming against levels and the reason I brought it up was due to shadowblades quote above.  

We should all assume that at any given moment all characters are equal unless we know that character well enough IG.  Therefore during a quest, regardless if a player is level 8 versus 28, that person at level 8 could very well lead a party just as well as the level 28 person.  There is something that happens to the mind of players when they hit epic that makes them think every quest is their own personal CDQ.  It's usually at this point that I can get quite nasty.

Usually what I do during quests is force someone of low level to lead.  I used to do this with Dezza's char Sasha all the time.  We'd have epics in the party all arguing the correct course of action but I'd always push Sasha to lead, much to the disappointment of the others.  Maybe it's my vindictive a side and by doing so I'm also metagaming in manner of speaking, but I always like battling for the under-dogs.

Ever notice that when a fighter character of level 20 logs on central he/she will get a million tells to join him and in moments that's where every player is.  Or that when a new character has begun from hampshire, spots a well known epic char and immediately flocks to him/her before they have any idea who that person is.  

We all do it and this is evident with the mini-quests and points of interest.  At the end of the day I couldn't care less about how people level and how fast they do, I would simply like people that level rediculously fast to have the same respect for level 1 characters as they do to level 30 and not have an attitude shift when they become eipc.

[Skywatcher]

I agree totally Polak76.  I wish the level of the characters were not even listed on the server status.  I never look at it for that reason.  I don't want to know what level characters are.  I don't want to track how fast so and so is leveling or how long they have been playing.  I just want to see people there and interact with them.  For people to watch how fast another character levels and make value judgements on them based on that alone is just unacceptable in my book.  Meet people in game and make judgments based on their behavior and RP not the numbers on the server status screen.  I liked it when deities were taken off the server status screen.  Maybe it's time to take level off of it as well.  Then people just wouldn't know so they wouldn't get upset about it.  The team still has the info if they need to get onto someone but level has very little place in RP.  I would like to see reputation and RP more govern the responses of characters to one another in game.

[Polak76]

I agree totally Polak76.  I wish the level of the characters were not even listed on the server status.  I never look at it for that reason.  I don't want to know what level characters are.  I don't want to track how fast so and so is leveling or how long they have been playing.  I just want to see people there and interact with them.  For people to watch how fast another character levels and make value judgements on them based on that alone is just unacceptable in my book.  Meet people in game and make judgments based on their behavior and RP not the numbers on the server status screen.  I liked it when deities were taken off the server status screen.  Maybe it's time to take level off of it as well.  Then people just wouldn't know so they wouldn't get upset about it.  The team still has the info if they need to get onto someone but level has very little place in RP.  I would like to see reputation and RP more govern the responses of characters to one another in game.

well said!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Just wanna throw this in there.  Once about a month or 2 ago i tried to get in on a quest Orion was running that had been going on a while.  I was maybe level 13 or 14.  And Ozy was there, Rhynn, I think Kobal..  Lots of Epics...  (nothing against any of you, BTW).  I tried just to get the basic facts of what was going on, but they just kept going on about their plan.  I'll admit they did try to fill me in but I couldnt grasp the quest in 10 minutes (my fault for joining a series in the middle).  But who says I couldnt have made a difference if i did know what was happening...  *shrugs*

[Acacea]

Personally I think everyone gets just as vindictive about levels themselves as others supposedly metagame them. Both sides of the fence as far as I'm concerned - there are people who mindlessly ride the coattails of higher level characters in hopes of catching some glory, and people who bitterly deny status that is well deserved on account of the same obsession with a higher number, blaming IC situations on OOC perceptions. Once you are in either camp you've gone astray, from where I'm sitting.

As to joining a quest series in the middle, that is always difficult and I would try not to judge too harshly the leaders of them when one is coming in late. I wasn't there, but having personally explained the same quest story many many times (as both high and low level as it spanned both for me) and taking great chunks of GM sessions to do so and still getting trashed for being involved, I tend to sympathize. I recommend in future scenarios to make use of quest forums now that we have them, and nagging people incessantly for information.  Hehe.

Another thing I tried to do was find out who was going to come ahead of time and metagame it (sue me) by actively having my character seek them out and ask them for help, if it was appropriate. That way I got to do fill in ahead of time. But that is very rarely a possibility so while I know and have felt on more than one occasion the same confusion of "what the heck are you guys going on about" - not as a  low level player but just as often as an epic on a lower average quest! - I encourage the sharing of information as much as humanly possible, but also try to understand from my own experience that the IG GM session is not often the best time for an extensive report unless there are so many new people and so few old that it would be ridiculous to even try moving without sitting around for an hour filling everyone in. Low or high, the person with all the info is the one that's going to have the best advantage. I just kept my head above water on higher level quests by logging everything and paying attention, heh. It's sink or swim, whether epic or not!

(To respond to the actual topic - I don't personally see the value in suddenly jumping in level. I kind of figure that near the end, everyone will be allowed to run around doing whatever anyway, so crashing the time beforehand with meaningless level jumps seems kind of pointless to me. But then again, I tend to have more fun depending on the people I'm around, not the area I'm in. I can understand the burning need for SMD, though. Heh.)

[Pseudonym]

But then again, I tend to have more fun depending on the people I'm around, not the area I'm in.

Spot on. I'd give you a thanks but my views on challengers to my soon to come title of 'Overlord of the Thanks Count' are well documented. Even so, I am still tempted.

PS. If I wasn't so petty I also would have given Shadowblade225 a thanks for his post above with which I totally agree.

[Dorganath]

*Thanks Acacea just to spite Pseudonym*

[egoober]

*thanks Dorg on principle*

[lonnarin]

On the subject of people who can't play often lagging behind in xp...

Maybe an increase in double-xp weekends, specifically on calendar holidays that most people get off from work, would help?  I smell a Labor Day on the horizon, and I'm pretty sure most of us hard-working busy-bodies have that day off.  *wink wink*

[DMOE]

oh joy! *sarcastic tone*

And for those of us that work weekends and have family's? Or it isn't a holiday for them as they don't live in the US.

Never mind that although quite a few people enjoyed the double XP weekend I personally have never seen such a huge slip in RP  or peoples consideration and attitude towards each other as I did that weekend.

We are an RP server for heavens sake....I fail to see how everyone grubbing around attempting to make as much XP as possible in a small space of time actually helps with that