Wail Banshee (or what ever it is called)

[Varka]

Okay...


1)
I dont know why but can somweone tell me why.....that spell does not affect all except the caster?

Here you have weird, destrution, banshee and more death-death-spells...

As far as I know (but maybe I am wrong) Weird was change at some point...
Now I see people taking that Banshee-thing and gives (for me) a not so good IC-excuse for using it... In the end I believe most...(most most most and not all) takes it as it is the most powerfull deathspell...

As being the most powerfull death spell (if so - I dont play a mage so I am not sure) shouldnt there be a "bad-side" of the spell?

2)
Necromancy - is it wrong or right?

Healing/cause wounds - and many more are necromancy. There is always this discussion- is it wrong or right?

In the old days necromancy was further put into two catagories - positive and negative. By doing that again (add extra text to the spell describ.) people had something to use as arguement for being against "necromancy-negative".


Why suddenly all this - it is friday and I have a bad start - thats why?
+ People who likes banshee are panzies!!!!!!!!!!

Good day all of you.....*runs away and does not care for spellllllllling missssssstakeeeeeeesssss*

[s0ulz]

In the form of making Wail of the Banshee only effective against foes, mages were given another group spell to use. At least for those that do not fear using necromantic spells. I personally think it should effect everyone in the area, yet I don't know if this can be done the same with enemy spellcasters.

Secondly, I've heard lots of discussion about necromancy around and I think that at this point we should leave it where it lies. Yes there are arguments about it being this and that and part of other schools and whatnot, but at this breakpoint towards the future of layonara, we have bigger problems to worry about.

Oh and your sentences killed me this early in the morning, but I managed

[Ar7]

It used to be all in the area, didn't have a problem with it back then *shrugs* I actually found out that it was changed a couple of months ago myself.

[Weeblie]

Implosion doesn't effect the caster either, in 1.67...

Besides, WoB is only the most powerful instant-death spell to some degree, as death spell immunity (like, death ward) works for this spell.

Implosion, though... Hehehe!

[Talan Va'lash]

As of 3.0 necromancy got weird.  

Healing spells are no longer necromancy, they're conjuration.

In NWN (dont remember if its like this in cannon d&d) greater restoration is necromancy, where as lesser restoration and restoration are conjuration.

Even raise dead and ressurection are conjuration.

So, basically every "good" spell that was in necromancy was moved to conjuration and the "evil" spells were left there.  Making necromancy less ambiguous and more "evil."

On that note, i've very little idea what the original post was getting at.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I totally agree that Wail should effect everyone in the area. There are ways around it, like shadow shield or death ward, so it is really not that big a deal. It makes very little sense in my opinion that it does not affect everyone who hears the cry.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Only to play the devil's advocate, Harlas, since I really don't care either way, it can be justified that the Wail is not an external scream, but an internal hemoraging.  That is, it's not recieved through the eardrums but is directed straight to the brain of the chosen enemies, and it is called a Wail because it is the magic screaming through your skulls hemoraging it to goo.

Alternatively, an even more simple design, is to say, it's magic, and therefore anything is possible, and making sense only has a tiny bit to do with it.  Then, it would stand to reason that it does affect you through the eardrums, but only the chosen enemies hear the keening- nothing else, not tree or animal or ally, hears the wail.  Since it's magic, and magic can do that.

[ZeroVega]

*cough cough* Read Book Six I believe in the "War of the Spider Queen" series. They lay out a very nice description of a "Wail" spell, and since I only know one, I went ahead and assumed that it is the same "Wail" that we know and love here on Layonara. Also, I always thought of it as being an actual sound, rather than a psionic (dunno if I used that right) mental projection.

Also, I agree, it should affect everyone. It seems sort of silly that a spell that is meant for mass killing can be calibrated(sp?) to affect only those that the caster wants. (Especially when some PCs travel with enemies. If it were so, Tath would have killed a few people he's traveled with.) Peace!

[Force_of_Will_]

I think its fine as is . A wizard works years with his craft and should be able to tweak a spell to affect only those he wants.
To me I picture the wail as something only the chosen hear.Chosen being those the mage has chose to try and slay.

[ZeroVega]

I'd like to point out quickly that Wizards and Sorcerers will have a bias toward keeping the spell as is since it's recently become almost acceptable as a spell choice. If it goes back to how it was, people will start dying from it and then it'll be a no-no again.

To Force: I agree, they do work years and should be able to tweak spells, but again most wizards on Layonara haven't worked at it for a few hundred years like the "Uber" powerful wizards we read about in the Forgotten Realms books. Also, non-epic wizards are gonna have a limit to their power and it makes sense to me that this is one of them. *shrugs* My opinion.

[twidget658]

Why is a non-mage complaining about a wizard spell? Something that a wizard can use to save YOUR butt, and you're complaining about it. Isn't there something else that is better to do?

I am a ranger so I could really care less. But why is it that there are people complaining about other people's abilities? Envy?

If there are people out there, non-GM team, that is complaining about things that do not concern them, I would consider that griefing and trying to take away fun from other players!

[Talan Va'lash]

ZeroVega - 4/28/2006  2:13 PM

I'd like to point out quickly that Wizards and Sorcerers will have a bias toward keeping the spell as is since it's recently become almost acceptable as a spell choice. If it goes back to how it was, people will start dying from it and then it'll be a no-no again.

To Force: I agree, they do work years and should be able to tweak spells, but again most wizards on Layonara haven't worked at it for a few hundred years like the "Uber" powerful wizards we read about in the Forgotten Realms books. Also, non-epic wizards are gonna have a limit to their power and it makes sense to me that this is one of them. *shrugs* My opinion.

Yes, but epic wizards have to use the same spells as non-epic wizards.  There's no -real- epic spell progression.

[miltonyorkcastle]

@ Twidget: It can be argued that it does concern non-casters, since game balance, immersion, etc. concerns everyone.  And the questions brought up about the spell easily fall under those categories.

However, I see your point, and, in fact, have been saved by Wail on many occasions.

[Xandor Loriland]

I think in this case to me there are three issues.  First is fairness of effect.  If you make the spell affect everyone in the area then it will be inconsistent since I think when the enemy casters cast it it only affects the players.  I might be wrong on that but I think that's what I've heard.  Second is one of balance.  Fighters get melee damage, Rangers get bow damage, Clerics have divine abilities and Mages have arcane abilities.  Each class has abilities that when maximized do a lot of damage.  It seems though that when spell casters get those abilities there is a suggestion that that's not fair.  I mean would anyone complain about a weapons master who could do 100 damage on 1 out of 3 hits because of his abilities.  I mean its not like the wail spell automatically kills everything.  There is a savings throw against it.  No save vs. 100 point critical.  Third, I think its funny that we are discussing whether a magical spell is physical or psionic and how it should be.  This is fantasy and the rules are the rules.  The Layo team has made the spell have a certain effect and that's what it does in the Layo universe.  There are no real laws of magic that can be appealed to to say it should be one way or another.  Its just magic.    My 3 cents.

[twidget658]

I hear you, Milton, and understand...but geesh, before you know it, we are just going to have a weak fighter wearing robes. I think the sorcerers and wizards have taking some severe knocks here lately.

I am just tired of people talking about other people's classes. We have GMs that play all different classes, if something was out of balanced, I would say that they would know it. They are the 'system expert.'

Anyway, it is all relative. What one person says seems OOC, to someone else, it may seem perfectly IC.

I am going to start a new trend...what is OOC or wrong with my MY OWN class?

I play a ranger, why in the world would I be able to polymorph into an Umber Hulk, Zombie, Troll, or frey? I spider, I can kind of see that. All the other spells make since and are more IC.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

@ Twidget: The GM team discusses balance issues and has in fact previously made changes to Wail. But only time shows us if the modifications were feasible. Reports from the community/the players are always appreciated and go a long way to tell us if things work as they were intended to do.
So there is really no reason to ask people to mind their own business. It is through discussion and viewing a possible problem from different views that we discover the best solution.

I play a sorceror myself who has the Wail spell and in my opinion the Wail is overpowered. The DC of this spell can become quite high and one can kill whole high-lvl spawns with one spell, since most of them do not have death wards. Comparing this spell to the Weird spell makes it very much overpowered or Weird very underpowered.

[virgil-stoneblast]

I would say that weird is underpowered.  It is a 9th level spell, from what I can see there really aren't any extremely good epic damage causing spells, so 9th is about as good as it gets.  The spell gives 2 saves which greatly increases the odds that it will have minimal effect.  Also, the 2 saves cover 2 of the 3 categories and therefore make it quite likely that at least one of these saves will be a high save for the target.  For weird to seem useful, it would need to have a significant effect from failing the first save, and then death as a result of failing the second.

The 9th level Bigby's was just trimmed down from an excellent spell for a variety of situations to a minor annoyance for most tough monsters.  It was a good spell for containing enemy mages and other low strength oponents, but now it is just another spell which enemy mages, thanks to the saving throw bonuses from buffs and high spellcraft, can generally ignore.  The opposed strength check aspect of Bigby's was what made it so effective.  If the strength that the hand was credited with needed to be lowered, that could change the strength of the spell but wouldn't change the niche it fills, but the change to a straight save gutted the spell.  I fear that bit by bit we are reducing the arcane spellcasters to the people who cast mind blank, mass haste and stoneskin, and hang out invisible watching the clerics and a few fighters fight.

[Gemme Moregems]

No, no, don't mention clerics! *throws up his arms*

[Varka]

@ Twidget: *grins* what you write shows that you don’t know me - but that’s okay. '
I would prefer that the spell had effect on me and splatter me all over the place and give me possible death token.
And I even believe Mith saved Varkas rear in a quest with this spell which I am not really happy for.

I am an old player and tend to lean to the old spell-descriptions therefore - please read the old spell description of it - it was used by necromancers in the old days for mass killings and maybe followed by a spell called raise army - a pleasant combination.

By not making the spell hit everyone (minus caster) I just see a loop hole for players - that’s all.

How to balance weird, banshee etc. that’s not up to me - I only write this because I believe something is not right - where you see it differently - totally fine by me.


- - I tried to find the TSR spell-description but without luck but I will ask you to read this: Layos-handbook page 321 "Pealing Doom". It will give you an idea.

[twidget658]

Varka, I see your point. I realize that you are not one of those that are just trying to put a class down to improve your own or jealous that someone can solo and you can't. I offer my apologies for the misperception.

With that said, we can further discuss this through PMs.