Bard Summons

[steverimmer]

I know I've brought this up before in other threads but I thought I'd bring it up again with some suggestions too based on the ranger summons and on the levels on which the Bards get their summons.
  Basically Bards have the same problem as Rangers when it comes to summons although I admit it isn't as bad as it used to be with the Rangers before they were changed. So whats the problem? Basically they get them at higher levels than other casters and they only have 6 spell levels, so not only are their summons underpowered for their level when they get them, they don't get the higher ones either.
  So I thought it might be a good idea to change them to be in line with the ranger summons. I've played around with the ranger and wizard summons and tried to translate that into the Bard spell progession and I don't think my suggestions are overpowered for their levels but of course thats not really for me to decide.
  So here we are;
  [TABLE=head;sort=1a,2,3]Bard Spell level |Earliest Bard CL|Suggested Summon|Ranger Summon Level |
1|2|2||
2|4|4|4|
3|7|5|Gets 5 at CL level 8|
4|10|6|Gets 7 at CL level 11|
5|13|7|Gets 8 at CL level 14 |
6|16|8||
[/TABLE]
    As far as wizards go the bard does get the higher summon one Character level earlier but only if the bard max's out his charisma. If the bard puts more stat points into other stats and starts with a charisma lower than 16 he'll get the spell at the same level as the wizard. Don't forget too the wizard has more potent spells too to cover this and he can buff his summons which the bard can't really do except for mage armour and improved invis at higher levels, plus the Bard summons don't go as high maxing out at level 8 and of course they haven't the planar summon spells clerics and wizards have either.  Rangers too still have an advantage over Bards in the respect that they have animal companions which are not bad fighters either depending on which they take and of course animal empathy is a bonus too.
  This isn't meant to make the Bards summons equivelent to the wizards.  Just to make them worth taking as spells in the same manner as the ranger summons.  Bards are not the best fighters nor the best spellcasters and a good summon is very useful to stay alive, even if you do sing badly
  Anyway I've put this up for discussion feel free to blast it to pieces.....

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

In review of your suggestion Steve I have decided to make my own little commentary.

 The spreadsheet you provided was easily ledge able, a valuable tool in providing a coherent presentation of your point. The flowing of the post was excellent I actually read thru it and gave each segment some thought.

However, I note in presentation two critical flaws in the reasoning behind amplifying Bard Summons. Using rangers as the platform thou clever failed to address the two primary arguments that will prevent this from actually coming to pass.

The first Argument, can be summarized in two words; “Ozymandias Llewellyn”
The Second Argument; The breakdown of current bards skills/abilities that in theory justifies weak summons that hold no practical value to anyone and serve as only a wasted spell and momentary distraction. The reasoning behind this is, giving a quality summon may result in summons doing all the work.

Notably however the first, second and third level summons are most likely overpowered for their general level. A more reasonable reflective level might be; level 1 remains level 1, level 2 remains level 2, level 3 becomes level 4.

There is one final set of scatter that will likely shatter your actually valid and intelligent point. Someone requests custom bard summons despite never having played a bard or having any interest in playing a bard. Or someone either declares bards to powerful or to weak and an argument ensues over that devaluating the original post.

However the likely final declaration upon the mater is that, it has already been taken into consideration and there will be no changes.

Your turn Steve, provide your secondary example set to break the filibuster so I can come up with another set of reasons why it shouldn’t/wont occur. Maybe we can get a nice fourteen or fifteen set post before someone on the design team reads this.

[steverimmer]

Heh I don't see the point in creating new summons for bards, unless you want musical instruments on the battlefield or something  
  I do like Bards though...my favourite character used to be a bard but they've never really worked out for me in NWN, and I've had several in layo.  Just about to try again too which brought this old issue back to mind.  Funnily enough though Buppi was a bard once in her second incarnation before I eventually got her right.
  I can think of lots of reasons why it won't happen but just as many why it should, I can live in hope though

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

I personally do not see a reason for the thought of such a modification myself Steve. However every time I have ever viewed this sort of suggestion the process comes up from someone. I hope by commenting on its silliness that this time becomes the exception. Flying instruments in battle, utterly inane.

I am rather fond of bards myself Steve, and I agree with you upon both points of having reasons not to and reasons to make such a change. However I didn’t know that the cute Halfling was once a bard, thou the Rogue/Cleric cross should have caught my attention. Thus it is my hopes that by providing the first line of arguments against the provisions of a summon change they can be properly assessed and debated properly. At the very least we might as well have some fun on this hopeless battle.

[Talan Va'lash]

The upgrade that was done to ranger summons is more consistant with the class than upgrading bard summons would be.

It makes sense for rangers to be able to call animals to their aid, this is one of the things rangers should be good at.  Especially since AE has a smaller imapct here than I have seen on other servers (due to the placement and relative CR's of creatures of the animal and magical beast types that you can find in places you would typically be fighting.)

Bards however, are masters of spells that mislead, manipulate or misdirect.  Spells like summons and evocations don't so much fit into the bards strong point.

From a balance point, I think everyone agreed that rangers were underpowered before (I'd argue still, but less now.)  For one, this was easier to determine since you could directly compare them to any of the other warrior classes, which you can't really do for a bard, since their class features and role are quite different than pretty much any other class.

Since I'm not going to get into the discussion of whether they are underpowere/balanced/overpowered, lets just say, if they are underpowered in any way, they aren't underpowered as much as the ranger was.

-TV

[steverimmer]

I'd have to disagree with you there...The Rangers summons were changed to animal it is true but they were also increased in power as is shown on the table in my original post.
  Also in NWN the bard is more of an all rounder with elements of Fighter, Healer, Rogue, and in PnP druid etc. His spells too relflect this, in the NWN game most of his spells are either healing or combat related. I know that with the PnP Bard most of the spells are divination, illusion and enchantment based, however only a few of those spells are actually in NWN. (Its a pity there is a 5th level Bard spell which is almost the same in practice as teleportation if I remember correctly). Yet even in PnP the bard still has summon spells available to him. But this is not a PnP game...and all of the classes have been changed to fit in with the NWN engine and with Layonara too.
  These changes are not uber summons changes...but just align the summons somewhat closer to other spellcasting classes. The Bard does have some powerful spells it is true, but the other spellcasters have quite rightly, more powerful ones and more of them as well. Yet that is not the issue, I don't want to get into an arguement with anyone about whether the class is underpowered or not. I think that it is slightly but that is how it should be for such a versitile class; 'A jack of all trades master of none' as it were. However at the moment it is hardly worth taking any of the bard summon spells and I just want to address this and to balance it out a bit more.