Wail of the Banshee broken?

[Rayenoir]

I've been watching more and more people select Wail of the Banshee as one of their 9th-level spells.  Only recently did I find out just how many additions have been made to it for the Layonara version.

The base spell has a fortitude save vs. death, with no effects if the save is successful.  The number of creatures effected is limited to 1/caster level (which means at least seventeen creatures are effected by the time this spell is learnable!)
The components for this spell are Verbal only.
In Layonara, even on a successful save, the hostile targets in the area of effect are struck with 5d6 sonic damage, deafness for two turns, and stun for 1d6 rounds.

Compare this to the spell Weird, the other instant-death 9th level spell.

Weird, as the base spell, has a will save to disbelieve, and if that save is successful, an *additional* fortitude save vs. death, with 3d6 damage only on a failed save.
The components for this spell are Verbal and Somatic, which means there is chance of arcane spell failure in armor.
In Layonara, this spell is expanded to cause death with no save to any creature under 4HD.  However, this spell is limited in terms of Hit Dice, not number of creatures.  So it is possible for a single creature of 17 HD (with a roll of 1 on a 17th level wizard's d3) to take up the whole effect of this supposedly area-effecting spell, with no negative effects to any other hostiles in range.  As well, should this single creature succeed its will and make its fortitude save, it will still take only 3d6 damage.  Finally, only creatures of up to twice the caster's level are effected.  Wail of the Banshee has no such limitation.

It seems as though a number of elements have been *added* to Wail of the Banshee for Layonara from the spell Great Thunderclap, while Weird has been reduced in power due to the HD cap.  I'm not sure why this change was made, as Wail of the Banshee has never been a weak spell, and the fact that Weird has two chances of reduced effect instead of one makes it begin as a weaker spell, the damage on a successful will save and failed fort save mitigating this fact, particularly when this mitigating damage is *lower* than the damage automatically done by Wail on a successful save.  Since on a successful will and fort save, this spell has no effect at all.
As things are, aside from roleplaying reasons, there is no point in learning the spell Weird while Wail of the Banshee is available in the state it is currently in.  
A creature/level instant-death single-save spell does not, in my opinion, need to have effects on even a successful save, particularly when it renders another spell obsolete.  I recommend consideration be given to these spells to rebalance them, as I said, I do not understand why Wail of the Banshee was improved in the first place.

[Filatus]

Yes, I agree with the concerns mentioned here by Rayenoir.

It seems that the changes were made from the creature perspective. And sure, it balanced it in that way. Wail and Weird both became more effective against a party of adventurers.

But the problem is that it unbalanced the spells as far as they are being cast by players.

Weird has been rendered completelty useless. the 1d3 is ridiculously inhibiting the spell, even compared to lower level spells. Let's not forget it is a level 9 spell.

A creature only has to be one level higher than the caster and the spell will have no effect at all. Next to this if you roll a one, you are likely to only affect one creature.

That last point doesn't make sense from a realistic perspective. You cast the spell.. and the illusion appears at a certain place. Everyone within a certain range is aware of it. Now why would the spell only affect this or that creature, but not those who are staring at it, just admiring the pretty colours?

From what I have heard is that Weird was changed because prot from alignment as a level 1 spell could render the spell useless. Creatures rarely if ever have this spell, which leads me to believe this was considered from the creature perspective.

And yes, the spell is still pretty dangerous for a party. But it is useless now from a player's perspective. The limited affect on creatures in combination with two saves is ridiculous. And the 3d6 damage is really only handy when spammed repeatedly, something that lies more in the line with creatures built around the spell than PC mages. And I say this because there are not that many illusionists around.

The changes made to Wail on the other hand, which I think were intended in pretty much the same way, have gone completely the other way. The spell is a killer, all a mage needs is that spell and he can go pretty much anywhere that does not include undead. And really casters have no problem with undead, plenty of other spells for that. And if you know a certain creature can cast Wail, players will always outthink the AI.

I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the team about this. I can't really imagine that the result and the original intentions are in line with each other in this case.

[LoganGrimnar]

Now im not 100% sure, but i think it says under Weird that ONLY true seeing can protect you, thus, death ward means nothing. Ive not tested this, but if its true, then that is why Weird is better then Wail, or at least on the same level.

[Dorganath]

True Seeing protects against Weird.
  Weird is not death magic, so death wards and similar protections do not help.

[Xandor Loriland]

Undeaths eternal foe protects against weird.  

As far as the balancing of these spells is concerned, it seems a bit odd to me to make changes to spells as a result of player behavior.  

I really don't have as much problem with this since my character is a Cleric and can choose any spells I want if they change but mages are very different.  Wizards choose the spells when they level based on their effects.  If you change the spell after the fact then the wizard can get stuck with bad spell choices of no fault of their own.  Sorcerers and bards can change spells when they level but that can still be a long time before they can get rid of bad spell choices.  The other problem with making changes to spells is that people who use them sometimes don't get the word about the change until they use the spell and it no longer works.  I have heard examples of players getting killed as a result and that's no fun.  

I think for consistency sake the spells should be set in stone unless there is a very compelling reason to change it for overall game balance.  I would think those game balance issues would be almost non-existant at this point since Layo has been around a long time.  The premise of the original post that there is something wrong because too many people are choosing one spell or another is a bit strange to me.  That's like saying there's a problem when too many people go to a particular restaurant.  If one spell is better than another it makes sense that people would take that one over weaker spells.  I am not aware of an overriding need to make all spells equal.

I think if the team notices that spells are being used in ways that are not intended or getting an advantage that was not intended in a particular area or against a particular set of creatures, it's better to change the area or the creatures than to modify spells that affect all players.  If monsters change then let the adventurer beware applies.  There is no expectation that areas or monsters will always be the same but spells, feats, and class abilities are a very different story.

My bottom line is that I would like to see a much higher threshold for making changes that affect the way characters are built than for making changes to areas and enemies.

[Dorganath]

Only if it boosts a save.  True seeing gives immunity to the spell. Death wards and similar spells do not.

[Varka]

I wrote a bit about is once...
"Wail Banshee (or what ever it is called)"
But it was more about letting wail of the banshee affect everyone. *shrugs*

2) Concerning other spells – quickly:
Why does fireball and ice storm hit your groupmembers when delayed fireball doesn’t?



Heck I love standing in the middle of a meteor-shower while fighting my foe. It makes it all more interesting.

[LoganGrimnar]

i think the not hurting friendlys is apart of the big deal about delayed blast fireball. Thats why its a lvl 7 spell. Damage wise it dose a hole 5d6 more then a normal fireball at lvl 3, big deal. I can empower a fireball to make it a lvl 5 and do 10d6x1.5 and its only lvl 5.

[Pankoki]

Please lets not piggy back threads, if you wish to discuss another spell, start a new one. Thank you, this is simply for ease of tracking and less headaches when reviewing player input.

[Polak76]

I discovered to my surpirse that on another server, Weird does not effect a character who also has protection from Fear as it is a mind effecting fear spell.  I tested this theory and it was correct.  A specific cave had creatures that toss so many Weird's that its like some sort of funky dance party.  My characters would usually drop dead after one or two.  I then would don a belt with protection from fear and i survived without a problem.

In that case then it should be accurate to state a Paladin or epic monk would be completely immune to this spell.  Thats another negative towards its popularity.

I really think this spell should be more powerful, at least equivalent to banshee.  Each school should have a big weapon for lvl9.  Necromancy has Banshee, though Circle of Death is a complete write off unless you fancy killing goblins at level 20.  So Banshee is the boy.  Illusion should have weird (also i'm not a fan of passing two saves; should just be will save and thats it).  The other schools have pretty good spells but poor old illusion is a let-down.

anyway thats my two bob's worth.
Cheers,
Polak76

[lonnarin]

considering that the illusion kills you through being terrifying, that DOES make sense.  Paladins should be automatically immune as well, by sheer nature of the method of death.

[Varka]

Lonnarin:
In the old days: Weird was a spell that made you fight your worst enemy according to TSR description.

1. So indirect - yes it is a fear spell but then again everyone in here has an opinion of how a spell works, if it is good or bad, draw parallels to old rules (ooops that would be me )...etc.
2. I would anyway not put that spell under "fear". It would simply make the spell even less powerful than it already is.
3. Players which are paladins and battle ragers could make abuse of this change.
4. Btw. I play a battle rager and I wouldn’t like to see that change.
5. If that change was made Varka would try to WIPE OUT those bloody Wee by north point due to an old conflict..

Peace, have a since weekend and don’t drink and drive.......

[Dorganath]

I too am not sure why an illusion spell should be as powerful/deadly as a necromantic one. Througout D&D rules, spells of illusion are always less powerful in terms of damage they cause, deadliness, etc. Look at the Shadow Conjuration spells as an example.
  Having said that, changes are being made for the next version.

[Polak76]

Actually I think the shadow conjuration spells are fantastic.  It gives great diversity whilst using the Illusion school DC.

But even if people wish for Weird to be non-damaging, it should still be powerful in some regards, especially at 9th lvl.  How about making it a potent version of Colour Spray, if they fail their will but pass their Fortitude, make a certain HD subject to being stunned/blind/prone..etc, as they attempt to clear their heads from what they just witnessed (undead excluded).

Just some food for thought...
Polak76

[Dorganath]

My reference to Shadow Conjuration is that the effects are 40% of what the "true" spell would be. But yes, they are quite nice spells as a group.