Ghostly Glow of the Living

[miltonyorkcastle]

Why do you feel you must log off rather then play ghosty?

Aesthetics. The same reason we customize our armor. (even though it would be more "realistic" or appropriate to be stuck with the default design or whatever design the crafter applied)

One reason, anyway.

[Gulnyr]

Entirely correct, it is a visual aid to make everyone aware that your character looks bad, tired, pale and the like.

It is a tool to enhance RP, so that people can immediately see you look bad. Just like when you meet somebody who has the flu, you can almost immediately tell that person is not feeling well.

What are Spot checks for, and why should anyone who can't spot well be instantly and indisputably able to tell someone in a brand new, undamaged body has died rather than just having a bad day?  

I dispute the claim that it enhances RP.  Good RP can arise just as well (or even better) from the character emoting and acting appropriately rather than from a forced OOC mechanic.

It shouldn't be removed in my opinion, because then it will only be clear to the people you tell that you recently died and not to everyone who sees your character. In addition, if it is removed and a player doesn't want to talk about it, then none of the other players will have any idea even though your character does actually look the worse for wear.

Then we should have glowing effects for all conditions so that everyone instantly knows that someone is looking weak or clumsy or stupid or poisoned or drained or etc, regardless of the viewers' areas of expertise or Spot levels or whatever.  The death recovery is no different than any other condition in this regard, yet it is the only one that has an OOC glow.  Currently, almost every other condition can be blown off by the player whose character is affected by simply not emoting or RPing it because they don't cause a glow.  

If the goal is to improve and enhance RP, it should be done by positively reinforcing good emotes and acting, not by throwing OOC effects everywhere to force situations.  

If the problem is that people think you're a ghost, then it shouldn't be too hard to remedy by a clarifying post, in my opinion. Or the person thinking that somebody is a ghost can easily be corrected by the recently-died-player "Hey dude, actually I'm not a ghost, it's just a visual effect to show my char looks bad because of a recent death".

I have done this so many times I am sick of it.  I gave up a long, long time ago.

Is it the VFX that's really the problem? Or is it the hours spent reflecting after respawning through the bindstones, during which one must endure this ghostly white glow?

It's the totally OOC and not-even-close-to-required glow!  The length of reflections doesn't bother me, and I have a level 35 character so I know how long reflecting can last.  The length of time is not at all the point.

Wither or not you know someone or not, if that person seems to drag him/herself across a room with great effort (visually seen and heard, with slowness, loud breathing and maybe even erratic breathing. Slight moaning. Grunting with efforts. Dizziness, lack of focus, speech impairment for those that the int goes under 10) That when you speak to her, you can hear the strain in that person voice. Well you would know something is not right. Would you know right off the bat that this person died? -maybe- not, but that is when RP comes into play and you engage in conversation with the person to see what happened. If you know the person well though, it might be easier to spot on right from the bat what was the problem. As to you have seen that person with the same symptoms before.

Now I am going to hear the, oh but he was all covered.. did you roll a perform to try and pass the voice as being her normal self?, rolled a bluff? etc?.. it's easy to want to get rid of a vfx, while there could be a myriad of other things that could be done before hand to enhance the RP at the player base level.

This, actually, would be fantastic.  What you've said here is that the recently respawned character initiates the RP by emoting and acting sluggish and such, which is then taken up by other characters to create some fine RP, with some dice bag action, even.  

But we all know that is a very, very rare thing.  What ends up happening is that some glowing character walks by as if everything were pretty much normal and everyone instantly asks, "What happened?  Where did you die?  Can I help you get your stone?"  There's no incentive to RP anything wrong since everyone will ask anyway.  The glow is a crutch that replaces good RP.

I wanted to find the thread in which a good number of players said they'd be more likely to stick around and play their characters while recovering from death if the "ghostly" effect were removed. That is enough reason for me suggest the vfx be removed.

Thanks.  As it is now, if Jennara dies and I have to respawn, I'm probably going to log out to avoid all the 'what happeneds' coming my way.  If she didn't glow, I'd be much more willing to stay online to cook or talk at the Shack or whatever.  I'd even be glad to throw in a few emotes here and there to show she wasn't feeling in top shape.

If someone is RPing that you look ghosty, then tell them its wrong.

So... very... tired...  

If there has to be an effect, can it be something that doesn't make every new player and several players who have been here for years think people turn into ghosts?  Be careful picking something, though.  The next thing people think could be worse.  No effect at all would be great.

Is this a matter of the player's ego being hurt to have to saunter around displaying to people that they just died? Why do you feel you must log off rather then play ghosty?

Because I would rather have normal RP conversations, not have everyone come up and ask "What happened?" as if that were somehow a normal way to greet someone.  I don't have any problem letting people see that Jennara can die.  She's died over a hundred times.  She'll probably die a lot more.  

I remember Jennara having died once and sitting on a bench.  It was not as fun as it could have been because everyone insisted on asking what happened and offering to help return to Jennara's stone (which was in a horribly dangerous area Jennara was not leading anyone to).  And that's all that was discussed.  Nothing else.  It was all about Jennara dying.  Giving the same answers to the same questions again and again gets old in a hurry.  I don't really want to do that again, so I usually log out.

It's being forced that's irritating, really, as if it's assumed we're too lazy or stupid to RP that our characters aren't in top condition.  Again, why only for death and not for strength drain and such?  Why put in a crutch instead of letting the player RP the problem?  Why is there a problem removing it?

[orth]

Thanks for spelling it out Gulnyr, I personally am not attached to it, I just didn't see the full issue.  You raise some good points.

[Hellblazer]

This, actually, would be fantastic.  What you've said here is that the recently respawned character initiates the RP by emoting and acting sluggish and such, which is then taken up by other characters to create some fine RP, with some dice bag action, even.  

But we all know that is a very, very rare thing.  What ends up happening is that some glowing character walks by as if everything were pretty much normal and everyone instantly asks, "What happened?  Where did you die?  Can I help you get your stone?"  There's no incentive to RP anything wrong since everyone will ask anyway.  The glow is a crutch that replaces good RP.

I know that in your case you probably don't do that, and I don't either, and i know a few others that do rp the death correctly. But in most case people just forget to RP the effect of the death because their stats don't fall enough under to actually cause the character to walk slowly. When someone has a str of 22 and is not carrying enough to put the effect of the -4 to str into action, then they just run around carelessly completely forgetting the event that just happened and their body -STILL RECOVERING- putting a lot of emphasis on that one, as the timer is there to show that even if you have a new body, you are still recovering from the death. So it is as much the role of the player who just died, and the role of the others to actually rp these events correctly.  

Take someone that has only 10 in int and dies. His int drops to 6, he should be talking like a orc with a hot potato in his mouth, and drunk over all of that. But people don't do that because they forget what it means to have an int under 10. Same thing as if your dex was under ten, and con too. They -should- rp as being clumsy and sick. But most people don't out of convenience I guess.

My point is, and it's sad that I come to that here, but I guess it's a question of education on how to RP a death on this server, with the effects that are in place. The new player have no idea, and most of the old players just disregards it entirely.

Of course if all your stats are still over the disabilitating effects, the strain is somewhat lesser, but the body and soul, would still need a lot of time to recover, which is depicted with the timer firing up every five minutes.

I guess it could be worth it for the GM team to actually make a very visible post on the forum on the etiquette of the death system. So that EVERY one is on the same page. Then if this fails to work, as a last resort, change the VFX. I'm proposing this compromise first, because they already have a load on their plate, and making that post would be the easiest thing to do first.

[Acacea]

Regarding the question several skips up... I consider Dorg's question of time vs fx being entirely separate issues that are able to be considered independent of one another.

The effect is not itself a huge problem of great consequence to the server, it is merely a misrepresentation that, in my opinion, does not do what it was intended to do, but rather the opposite, in a small, stackable way over a great length of time. It seems like a relatively small issue, yet by the same token I've never understood why it was so great an obstacle in terms of consideration.

Not a huge deal... but then again, is it that huge a deal?

Either way, you know? It's just being told how great it was intended to be that doesn't make a lot of sense as a reason against. Expecting people to just know doesn't work.

[EdTheKet]

I guess it could be worth it for the GM team to actually make a very visible post on the forum on the etiquette of the death system.
So that EVERY one is on the same page.

That shouldn't be too hard, we can easily add it to the Death System page on LORE.

Then if this fails to work, as a last resort, change the VFX. I'm proposing this compromise first, because they already have a load on their plate, and making that post would be the easiest thing to do first.

Agreed

[Hellblazer]

just as a side note. Do it on the forum. Lore is too easily missed for those kind of things. IE I just learned that there is a post in there that says that a mage could use a golem to mine for him, if it had legs and arms. and I've been here for hmm over three years now.

not that I think that it is something that should be done at all.

[Gulnyr]

I hate to sound so completely pessimistic and I'm not opposed to the suggestion of a post on how one might go about RPing both recovering from death and interacting with characters who are, but I have to say that no matter how big and bright the post, how well it's stickied, or how reasonable the suggestions within, it is impossible that everyone will be on the same page.  Ever.  Some people don't read the forums.  Some people don't like being told how to RP.  Who knows all the reasons?  That's just how people are.

I haven't asked, but I'm guessing the glow-applying script isn't a big deal to remove, meaning it's not piling a ton onto the workload.  The best solution is probably to remove the glow and offer a sticky post in the Roleplaying section with suggestions on how to play recovery, not just make a post and cross our fingers.

[Hellblazer]

Not to flame on anyone or anything. But unless there is a way to visually see a situation that can bring RP, then there is no possible RP. Let me explain. You die, you run around, do you stuff talk, but you don't RP the death, and no one around you has a clue that you are actually under the effect of death. The system is there for a reason, and even if the player doesn't want to RP the death penalties, fact is, that if you were your character in game seeing someone under the effect of a death, you would see all the effect I listed above, wither or not the person was trying to hide them. Because they affect directly the character mental, physical and psychological attributes. And that is what they white glow represents.

I'll push it even further then. if you are to take the possibility of an emerging RP out of the equation, take the whole timer and penalties off, and put a 75% cost on xp loss.

It's harsh? yes, but this is a RP server, and we should not take out the RP aspect of things to simply suit the fact that some people are not able to differentiate that the white effect is not because the person is a ghost, but because he looks and acts sick.

I'll give you a better example. Someone would be bitten by a large yellow snake in game. You think they would walk around effortlessly while their respiratory and nervous system are shutting down, that there would be no fever, cold sweat, tremors and plain and simple keeling over due to the pain? No it's just us as a player that don't put the effort into RPIng what should be happening to our character as we should. Plain and simple.

I don't want to sound harsh or anything really, and of course I will go with what the team goes. But I just think that if you take the tools for rping away, then you simply and slowly become more and more just an action server.

with that being said I think I have posted every part of my point here and will drop the subject.

[Gulnyr]

If you were actually a person on Layonara, you would see the lowered strength affects of someone drained by a shadow whether they wanted you to or not, yet characters don't glow red when their Strength is lowered.  If you were actually a person on Layonara, you would also see the lowered dexterity affects of someone hamstrung or cold whether they wanted you to or not, yet characters don't glow green when their Dexterity is reduced.  

Jennara got a nasty Constitution zap not long ago, far worse than any reduction from respawning, and she didn't glow blue, y'know?  I had to emote it and try to RP accordingly.  

Seriously.  She didn't glow blue.  Not even a little.  She had a Constitution of 3, though.  That is far and away lower than even the worst death recovery effect can bring on.  Shouldn't that have been obvious to everyone regardless of whether I wanted to RP it or Jennara wanted to hide it?  It was a direct effect on her physically, right?  

I did RP it, though.  I'll be honest and say I probably could have done more, but I also think that's pretty much always true.  I'm not perfect, nor the world's fastest typist.  The point is that I RP'd it because I like RPing and wanted to show the effect, despite the utter lack of OOC visual effects.  No one would have known if I hadn't RPed it, right?  Do you think all effects should have associated OOC glows?  If not, then why should any have an associated glow?

RP is not caused by the glow, it's caused by the players.  If the player whose character is under the effects isn't going to RP, it shouldn't be on anyone else to shove it down his throat.

because he looks and acts sick.

How often does anyone actually RP "acting sick," though?  The answer in my experience is, "Not very often."  The glow isn't making it better, it's applying a crutch so that no one has to RP acting sick.  It isn't an RP tool but a detriment to better RP.

I'll give you a better example. Someone would be bitten by a large yellow snake in game. You think they would walk around effortlessly while their respiratory and nervous system are shutting down, that there would be no fever, cold sweat, tremors and plain and simple keeling over due to the pain? No it's just us as a player that don't put the effort into RPIng what should be happening to our character as we should. Plain and simple.

I'm right there with you.  Should we go with a yellow glow, or should we maybe try to somehow reward those who go the extra mile to RP being poisoned?

[Hellblazer]

It all comes back down to the responsibility of the players. not the system. The system is there to bring up RP. If the player doesn't use the system, it is not the fault of the system and those that do, should not be penalized by it. Change the color if it is the problem, make it less visible and solide instead of see through.

For about 3 months RL i have rpied Rain as being truly sick after a heart attack that I had decided to do IG when he learned that his first son, Brian, was still alive and found. Walking slowly, with great pain, slow to react and all. It doesn't take much of an effort to write up some emotes. But yet again it is the responsability of the player.. not the fault of the system.

As to the poisoning, if you have noticed, there is already IG effects to that. The health bar being green, the movement speed being decreased. Same goes with sickness, the health bar is shown as yellowish green, the Hp are down. Those are visible when in party. And last only for a matter of time until someone has cured you or you have rested.

I commend you for playing jennara with the drain effect, and even if Jennara tried to hide it, constitution is directly tied with Fort save. She would look pale, sick, probably throw up a few time all in all. So in a rp perspective, the people around her would definitally notice it.

Anyhow I think the team has enough thigns to go on to make a decision?