subduel mode widget

[star23_16]

well okay i am gonna do something crazy as toss out a idea here .

how about a widget you can use in the rare pvp encounter or a friendly training fight between two character that rp being ..master and aprentice ?

i had seen it before and it do you can choice weither you want to do full damage (killing the player) or subduel with mean when one character die he/she is not dead , just knocked out ..the character wont respawn but be lieing down on the ground for a while then get up with 1 HP and hence had lost the fight/ training duel .

it also would make a great tool for those that plays good ...can rp knocking out one insted of killing and drag the person to justice for a crime or whatnot

ofcourse i might add i understand that pvp is look down on here but i still think this give a option once it should happen and also ..well i guess i am not all wrong when i say that the thing people get upset about in pvp is the fight and ...also the cost of dieing so this might prevent a few angry people out there in the end but just a idea here

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

This has already been discussed; try searching it.

In fact, there have been many suggestion on just how to go about it, but in the end, it's a big messy system that is really too much work for too little payback.

By the way (one of my little pet peeves) it's "subdual." The mixing up of duel and dual (ex. "duel wielding" instead of "dual wielding") is, while I totally understand the mix-up, one of my personal irritants.

[Joyrock]

Well if your going to have any type of CvC system you need it. after all your goal behind CvC is to create Rp it hard to do that when there dead.

The system they talk about is the one we used on my server. it is nearly perfect. And if folks wanted it I could send the work in to have added.

After all you would not believe the RP you could do with this, that not even the non-conflictive. it was mostly used for folks to sparr with are train. or even in the arena for tornaments. that we held once 'n' awhile.

Star post rarely, and they often don't unless they feel something important needs said, or if they really sure something would be a good idea.

Now coming from the spot of being a admin that allowed open CvC on his server you can't have a thing like CvC/PvP  and NOT have sparmode.

Now I only post things that require project teams to do work unless I am willing to do the work.

They want they can ask me and I will have it done in no time, I have no small amount of talent in scripting for NWN or making anything for NWN at that matter.

So with that offer, how about we throw the thoughts is it worth the work out?I know in the past this server has had alot of limits on it back due to the amount of work, but I can get the work done, I just need to be asked.

I am here, if I say I can do, and will do it you can rest assured it would be done and done very, very fast. you can ask anyone that came here with me on the stuff I can script and in a short time.

Even if this spar mode is not used often, or very rarely I stil lthink it is needed, and would help RP, and avoid alot of headaches in the future when you have all the bugs worked out your CvC/PvP system.


Oh P.S. Star is Danish, you have to mind there english, and there pretty shy about.

[Weeblie]

And old thread about this topic:
 http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/113137-subdual-mode-pvp.html

New comments from myself:

The arena is already a fine replacement in the case of "non-lethal" duels. Unlike "in the open", a character there does not die when... erh... being dead. The magic of the place making sure of that.

If you do not wish to kill the other person and do wish to have PvP anyway (remember that PvP is a BIIIIG deal... I have yet not seen the PvP widget used even once so far), why not stop attacking when the other person is down to low HP? Some OOC-talking with the other player is of course necessary (like an agreement to stop attacking when either drops to badly injured, to let one have some time to do the classical "I've beaten you"-talking).

Looking at the point of realism, subdual damage is not something very clear. It would not affect most of the spells for example ("I'll just fireball you... a little bit?") and it would rule out the enchantments (hitting with the flat side of your sword helps little if the sword is heavily enchanted with fire).

Once again, PvP is not something very common and something that is (from what I have gathered) considered extremly serious IC-ly. A battle of life and death is not something easily forgotten and would most probably lead to eternal hatred between the two involved characters (erh... yes... :p ).

The less serious duels to just prove a point can easily be done in the Arena... And those has been done there also!

Soo... I personally think it's far too little gain for adding such a system now, as there are already other ways to do it.

Just my €0.01!

[Joyrock]

Well I must say you won me over with it, with the you have one much like that with the arena and the fireball. Then I read the post and Pen n popper made a good with the paladin, and the man wishing to kill to prevent harm to himself. that type of thing can only be done with spar, but the one that I saw that made the most sense, and the one I see of most importance, is the one by Dorg. Saying that it would be good for the future if the PvP system is not a problem.

I see that undertsnadable given the servers background, as not having a PvP system. and while it still young, and fully not proven we can handle it, adding in a moving arena that allows folks to use it so early with out fear of dieing as something we should wait on.

I mainly thought of it in uses where they would not be "to the arena!" paladin turns his back the rogue looks at him and simply sneaks off.

I still fully support spar mode, as they said nearly every PW uses it, but for the future.

[darkstorme]

If the rogue would have skulked off anyway, he's unlikely to enter into fisticuffs - he's more likely to turn and run, subdual damage or not.

As has been covered extensively in previous posts, subdual damage, under the Neverwinter Nights engine, can be handled in one of two ways.
[list=1]

• You activate a Subdual widget.  At this point, a flag on your PC flips.  You whack your chosen target, and beat them to death.  At this point, the OnDying script fires, checks their last attacker (you), notes that you're in subdual mode, and starts the "unconscious, but recovering" timer, after which they sit up in full health, and start RPing about their bruises and contusions.  This is how virtually all systems on other servers (and those available on the Vault) function.

Limitations:

• The "health care through beating" exploit.  If you choose to have the person return to full health after they recover from the drubbing they take in subdual mode, there is a significant exploit.  Travelling with a party?  Badly injured, and out of healing kits?  No problem!  Sammy the Rogue'll give you a quick tap on the noggin whilst in subdual mode, and you'll recover as soon as you wake up!  After all, the game engine has no way to differentiate between damage dealt while in or out of subdual mode.
• The "accidental death" exploit.  If you opt to go with the limited-recovery option (no return to full health) to avoid the previously mentioned exploit, you open a new line for griefers.  Say, for instance, that you hold a grudge against player X.  You pick a fight with his character, both of you go into subdual mode.  You beat the snot out of him.  He recovers.  Best case scenario, you can then both rest in a safe area.  But if you've got it out for him, you do this where you have a fair chance of drawing lethal attention.  Here he is, weakened, just waiting for that crucial last shot of lethal damage.
  
• Finally, though Weeblie's covered it already, the "believability" exploit.  While it might be possible to hit someone with the flat or the hilt of an unenchanted sword, or smack someone about in a non-lethal manner with a rounded mace, you're not going to tell me that Finger of Death can be easily converted to Finger of Mild Discomfort and Minor Head Trauma.  This could, of course, be obviated by making spell damage lethal in or out of subdual mode, but then giving credit for spell kills becomes tricky - alternatively, spells could be halted in subdual mode, but either of these would require re-writing every spell script with the preliminary variable check in place.  Without this, again, the game engine has no way of differentiating between different kinds of damage, so it can't magically erase the hit with the club and leave the burns from the fireball.

• Replace the weapons (all of them) with duplicates that have one additional property - OnHitCastSpell.  This spellscript would then be the device that would check the flag set by the Subdual Widget.  If the widget were set, the weapon would check how much damage it had just dealt, heal the target by that amount, and increment a Subdual Damage variable on the target by an equivalent amount.  As under the 3rd Ed. subdual damage rules, if that number met or exceeded the number of hit points the creature has, they'd be dazed, or unconscious when they pass HP + 10.  The obvious benefit of this is that subdual damage could then be treated separately from lethal damage, as it should be.  Being punched in the face, even a few dozen times, is far less likely to kill you than a sword through your gut.
  Liabilities
  
  • First and foremost, this would require replacing every weapon in the game.  Since these are mostly craftable, that would be, on the conservative side, a thousand templates that'd need replacing, not to mention the headache of clearing old versions out of inventories.
  • Second, this would also mean that a script would have to fire any time any weapon hit anyone.  Now, most of the time, that would be a one-liner, but still, these things add up.
  • Third, this system isn't perfect.  Say an eleventh-level rogue gets the drop on a first level mage he wants to teach a lesson.  Surprise gives him his Sneak Attack, and he rolls a critical with his rapier.  So that's (on average) 9 + 15 for the sneak attack = 24 points of damga.  The mage is not only dead, he's splattered.  The script fires, and the system tries to heal 24 points of damage - only to find that our victim is already dead, and healing them won't do anything.  This, of course, means twiddling with the onDeath system again (or doing some complex check for the OnHitCastSpell that also Ressurects anyone caught by this unfortunate happenstance.  (More script execution.)
    

On the whole, then, while I'd love to see a workable subdual damage system, the intricacies involved would be extensive, and arguments over the mechanics of the system itself would take weeks or months.  If PvP becomes prevalent, this might be worthwhile.  For the time being, however, if it's to come to fisticuffs, the Arena serves just fine for the defense of one's honour/manhood/betting pool.

[Hellblazer]

I have used the pvp widget maybe once as of yet. It has its advantages. But when you just want to spar for training the Arena is the place. You do not even need to activate the widget in there as the place is made just for that.

Subdual could be interesting if the RP from the beginning does not warrant a full pvp with death. Ie: Your comrade goes craze and start attacking every one, (rp wise of course) then, in this case a subdual mode would be interesting as you would not want to kill your friend after all. But then again is it really worth the time and effort of the team, when you can do it with an RP battle using the dicing system?

Used the arena on many occasions for training and once for settling a score.

[star23_16]

okay i was tried when posting so i totaly forgot to search for a topic like this


anyway i do agree the arena is a great for the training and i also understand the minus about the subdual mode

but errrm ..one of the advantage here would be if a , let say rogue or thief get spoted/known for taking anything or something along those lines

then the good character want to help stoping the theif (normaly) and the thief run off ...now even if the good character should get close enough to try and stop the theif and , well is out of options so attacking and ..oops kill the theif insted of just knock him and rp tieing him up


the the idea about about both parties agree to stop attack when one of them get badly hurt might fail ...i cant predict if get crit at that unlucky time :\\ and i would be surprise if anyone could
i can see the minus as well the plus around such system . about the exploit of the system ..hmm i dont know ..link the subdual widget to the pvp widget so it only can be activated after the pvp widget had been so , but yeah that would mean alot of work -_-

anyway was just a idea , thanks for the replies

[Interia_Discordius]

Just a note, if both parties were agreeing to RPing out thievery and paladin chasing to begin with, I think roleplaying through emotes and rolls would work out better than needing to implement a subdual. You just have to make sure both parties are in agreement (something you need for a subdual anyways).

i.e.
Mister Roffie Pally sees Shady stealing Damsel in Distress' coin purse
"Stop, thief!"
Shady turns tail and attempts to take off.
Mister Roffie Pally's a quick little bugger though, and attempts to tackle Shady to the ground.
Mister Roffie Pally rolls a dex and/or strength check or something.
Shady rolls a reflex or dex check in return.
Now, either Shady gets caught (and heck, if I was Shady, I'd roll a str check to try to throw him off), or Mister Roffie Pally misses and Shady gets away.
Either way, some form of closure was made, and although the subdual tool does sound amazingly yummy, this could work in replacement

[darkstorme]

The problem, always, is separability of lethal and non-lethal damage.  If the same hitpoint bar is used for both (as it is in most subdual systems) there will always be exploits, regardless of whether it's tied into PvP or not.

[Weeblie]

I wish Bioware could have implemented subdual damage from the beginning...

Just a small "subdual HP"-bar beside the normal HP one. And a button to switch between subdual and normal damage.

Would have made life soooo much easier...

Yes, it's one of the things that has always been on top of my "want to have"-list.

[Joyrock]

The problem, always, is separability of lethal and non-lethal damage.  If the same hitpoint bar is used for both (as it is in most subdual systems) there will always be exploits, regardless of whether it's tied into PvP or not.

wekk there are fully working subdual system the on ethat bring you to 1 hp is fine, because if your going to kill the fella, you don't subdual you kill them, subdualing to bring them to hope a monster kills them is pretty pointless.

It also the sub-dual system the majority of servers use. Trust me if you have it out for someone, and plan on griefing, which from the looks of this community I don't think anyone is, even on server where we allowed full CvC we never had any griefing through CvC.

If someone is out to kill you, there going to just kill you.

And to the point of RP battles, there nice but sometimes you need to win a argument because it pretty key to the events that will happen in both your chars storyline, Players know when to use which, and is often a agreed on.

Star just felt that death being the only option in the wilds as less then RP friendly. Because CvC should only happen when there a need for Rp, and often when there RP your goal is not to kill your foe but to capture them, teach them a lesson battle over possesion of something.

Often with no wish to kill the other, and when you RP to hot headed folks there not going to march half way around the world to a arena.

I feel the is it worth it argument should not be the main focus, it fully worth it because it keeps RPing rolling and CvC/PvP should only be done when RP is in mind, and it keeps folks from killing each other with no way to raise the other.  which is pretty important to a good relationship with the one that is dead.

I do feel the question of do you feel it is time, for such a thing to be added. is important. I find currently from how everything  is going it is not needed at this time, due to a wish to see if players are able to handle such things.


Another thing on the dice rolls, People stack those. seen a bluff 45, 50 intimidate. Often the folks that do are the ones that demand you use them.
I don't think anyone here does that, but since we are allowing for the idea of abuse to happen there can be just as much dice abuse as CvC abuse. and I rather lose what i was fighting for RPing my char beaten crushed, then just bluff,intimdated, or persuaded, because someone rolled 2x higher then I can with a 20.

[Hellblazer]

Another thing on the dice rolls, People stack those. seen a bluff 45, 50 intimidate. Often the folks that do are the ones that demand you use them.
I don't think anyone here does that, but since we are allowing for the idea of abuse to happen there can be just as much dice abuse as CvC abuse. and I rather lose what i was fighting for RPing my char beaten crushed, then just bluff,intimidated, or persuaded, because someone rolled 2x higher then I can with a 20.

I'm pretty sure you already know this, but you can only put as much points into those skills as your Level/class allows. It is something you have to plan for and if you think that you char is not going to have to use them people do not put points in it, but some people do.

just a little example of a rp fight, we both had a blast and told each other in tells so, when the party splitted up.

Njord : [Party] *looks strait into his eyes, intimidate check*
Njord: Intimidate Check:  3 + 14 = 17
Taric Calahan: Will Check:  3 + 4 = 7
Taric Calahan: [Party] *he stands, stares but his lip quivers*
Njord : [Party] next time i'll show you what alone is
Taric Calahan: [Party] Is that a threat?
Njord : [Party] take it .. looks around him
Moreg The Gate Guard: What be thats?
Njord : [Party] what the hell was that?
Beilidel Miluknda: *giggles* there IS an arena where you two could bash eachother over the head ya know
Taric Calahan: [Party] *he doesn't even the notice go by*
Njord : [Party] You saw that too mOreg?
Taric Calahan: [Party] I'll accept your threat, fool *he takes out his blade, it sings lightly as he draws it*
Moreg The Gate Guard: Just saws dark thing go by fasts...
Njord : [Party] *dex check*
Njord: Dexterity Check:  10 + 6 = 16
Njord : [Tell] make a reflex
Taric Calahan: Reflex Check:  19 + 10 = 29
Njord : [Tell] nice one
Taric Calahan: [Tell] Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Beilidel Miluknda: *watches, a finger on her lips tapping them slowly*
Njord : [Party] *wras his sword and moves it swiftly at his neck, which tarrics evades*
Taric Calahan: [Party] *He does a backflip, landing on the bench*
Taric Calahan: Dexterity Check:  3 + 3 = 6
The Arbiter : Taric falls flat on the bench.
Njord : [Party] *tumble check*
Njord: Tumble Check:  20 + 22 = 42
Njord : [Party] *rolls on the ground and stip his sword to his neck*
Njord : [Party] do not tempt me *intimidate check*
Taric Calahan: [Party] Gah! Get off me Brian!
Njord: Intimidate Check:  7 + 14 = 21
Taric Calahan: Will Check:  5 + 4 = 9
Taric Calahan: [Party] J-Just leave me alone!
Njord : [Party] *seth his sword as he gets up*

Now, if his intimidate check was higher than his will check, he would have used it to counter my intimidate check (skill with skills). Subdued but not kill, not one drop of blood spilled and no risk of killing him by accident. This can be Rpied anywhere and we had fun doing it. As a Bonus, it happens that Arbiter was preparing a little impromptu quest when we went at it.

The same way you could rp Hitting someone with the pummel of your sword using the Dex check against the Reflex check of the opponent, if it hits then the opponent must do a Con check against a Str check which determines if the person being hit falls unconscious or not.

This way, even if the subdual thing would be a fun addition, you prevent abuse and it is less time taken to add a something vs fixing other issues.

[darkstorme]

wekk there are fully working subdual system the on ethat bring you to 1 hp is fine, because if your going to kill the fella, you don't subdual you kill them, subdualing to bring them to hope a monster kills them is pretty pointless.

It also the sub-dual system the majority of servers use. Trust me if you have it out for someone, and plan on griefing, which from the looks of this community I don't think anyone is, even on server where we allowed full CvC we never had any griefing through CvC.

If someone is out to kill you, there going to just kill you.

Understand, it was not merely the griefing exploit to which I referred - but it still holds.  What a hit-point reducing subdual system would provide is plausible deniability.  If your character were belligerent enough, you could have them picking fights with dozens of people.. and only picking the ones near lethal enemies when they're targeting the player they've decided to victimize.  I don't know that anyone in the community would do that, but it is something that needs to be considered when adding such a system.

More to the point, the other exploits are still an issue with the simplistic system that many servers (as you pointed out) use.  Most notably, the "subdual fireball".  While I could wish for subdual damage and the Non-Lethal Substitution metamagic feat, the system you propose would be unable to distinguish between them.  You could check to see if the thing that killed the target was a spell or not, and raise them or not appropriately, but a wizard could still "soften up" a tough opponent with a damage-dealing spell or two, and then smack them around enough to get them below that crucial threshold.  Dice rolls allow for people to work out the peculiarities of non-lethal combat without having to rewrite the system or induce troublesome constraints (like disabling a mage's spells once he's in subdual mode.)

And to the point of RP battles, there nice but sometimes you need to win a argument because it pretty key to the events that will happen in both your chars storyline, Players know when to use which, and is often a agreed on.

Star just felt that death being the only option in the wilds as less then RP friendly. Because CvC should only happen when there a need for Rp, and often when there RP your goal is not to kill your foe but to capture them, teach them a lesson battle over possesion of something.

And I couldn't agree more - I've often propped for subdual damage, but it has to be done properly.  A half-baked system that depends on the normal HP bar is worse than no system at all.

[star23_16]

hm sure a dice fight is fun but i really like to know to rp a mage in one and rp using the spells :p .lol ..hm i dont know maybe a spellcraft vs reflex if it a area/damageing  spell ...and if it a hold person/moster /bigy then it a  will save or something

anyway it true that dice rolls are fun i admit that but i had also seen trouble around it as one mean it okay with reflex and a other mean it has to be dex and so on :\\

nice example though Hellblazer

[Joyrock]

Not sure what you mean about picking fights by lethel enemies, that would be the same as just fighting near them. I have never once had someone lead me to a area with hostile monsters to subdual. Not really a expolit, it just a not something people do. Just like how there nothing on this server to stop a level 20 from power leveling me other then it is understood in the rules and is not done. Now which would you rather exploit the one that give you benefits of power leveling? or the one that lets you kill a foe after subdual damage is the combat screen along with "you killed them" for them to take screen shots of and send in to the DM team?

Now with a fire ball it works with subdaul, weapons are not the only thing to work with subdual. and much like Pen 'n' Popper posted, the argument of it unreal goes hand and hand with the many unreal things al'ready as a mechanic. and you can RP it as just being that careful.

I mean you can't even lift the body of a half-ling what less realistic that or not killing someone when you fire a fireball, and don't full kill them?

hellblazer I understand what you mean about skill points, but the fact is you have what folks that stack such skills. I have seen folks do this.

give me all your money or I will kill you"
Intimadate 7+24 = 31 Player trying to avoid it 14+6 = 20
"hands over all there money" There just as much dice abuse as other abuse.
Ever seen a depressed char persuaded to commit suicide?

Sure these are unrealistic thingsto happen here you might say, we have rules, or that never happens here.(but if this does not happen then I assure you no abuse of any lets lure them here so when I spar mode them and maybe win, they will die from a monster, man I love being a jerk and picking on people) Well if that does not happen I don't think much abuse of a subdual system would happen. remember most rules are based on trust, of folks willing to play fair it more so enforced by the players then the DM's. if you have players that are crazy and want to pick on each other and abuse system, then it will happen no matter what you do. there are things only bioware can fix to stop exploiting.

But if you have good players, that look down on cheating, power gaming, god gaming, and PvPing (player vs player, a term used when RP has nothing to do with it, and only out to win, bully etc) then well you often don't need to worry about such things. Now star a pretty fair player, don't think I ever saw a CvC action on from them unless they were on there drow, and they were going on a RP surface raid to try and capture surface elves, or maybe a village. All very well Rped things. they tend to avoid any kind of conflict.

Now they feel the PvP widget, it a walking thunderdome, two men enter one man leave, because you can't really pull punches if you roll a crit. even if you RP swinging the blade lightly, a crit is a crit and is a game mechanic.

Now honestly if your going to try to say kidnap my char to ask where the hidden treasure is, and there no RP way out of it, I am tired of you chasing me. There not going to be a Dice off. Not going to do *swings blade rolls dice* It CvC time, because to many classes have the advantage in skill points. it much harder, and rarely do people agree on the roles, and we are battling for what we feel is both very important.

Dice rolls have there place in bar room brawls, other places but nothing a char being 5 feet from you and emoting *grabs them rolls dice* You keep running they send you a tell. "I grabed you" you send back "you char was no where near me!" this is when I want control of ruling out of human hands, and in the hands of the game. if I am able to use knock down on you, I am able to grab you. if I am able to swing at you with my blade I am able to grab you.

even if you grab them it does not mean the fights over, or you auto won. Which sadly often when you see people emote grabs you they think that means they grabed you, over powered you and tied you up.

Dice rolls have there place, CvC has it's place, and subdual mode has it place right between them.

Also if someone leads you off into a monster infested place, does that mean they will also die if you win, and walk away? same outcome for the loser with the normal CvC widget.

[Hellblazer]

As you would do on P&P you would have to use common sense on distance and all,where you aim and how you hit. NWN is a 3d representation of what happens, but everything is still based on the principles of P&P. If you have played it that way, you can surely adapt to play it here in this 3d universe. A lot of people here have played P&P on this server.

 I doubt anyone can not understand that you can not hit with the pummel of the sword a person that is 20 feet away running, well you can if you throw it but then again you risk killing the person if your sword is imbalanced and hit him with the blade:D .

If the team does decide to implement one, I'm pretty sure it will be a custom one made for how this world is suppose to be and made sure it will be exploit free as possible.