Partial solution to the gold persistency.

[Hellblazer]

I know this wont please people, it wont be a popular idea at the start. But from an RP stand point it makes perfect sense, and it might help with the problem of gold persistency with players.

The first is, and yes I know it's a script that will have to be written to work with the database I guess, so no need to point that out please.

Throughout the time that there has been any kind of resemblance of a kingdom/government, there has always been taxes, even in the fantasy writings etc. In game unfortunately we don't see that. So it's something that is missing. Therefor I propose that 100 true out of every 1000 true that are deposited at the bank be automatically deducted every 24 RL days, to represent the taxes taken yearly by the kings, lords, etc.

Additionally, when you buy a house, there is a .08%(?) taxe that is applied to the market value of the house and if I remember right, it says yearly tax in the discussion. So I suggest that this taxe be set in game. Again every 24 RL days.

This way, it's two more ways to see a slight gold drain to appear, beside crafting, buying potions and the boat tickets.

Now I'd like to ask that if you have nothing constructive to say (ie i don't like this. This is a stupid idea.. etc etc etc) don't write it. If you have counter points please do write them, if you have other ideas for finding a solution to the problem of gold persistency, by all mean write them also.

[Ravemore]

This is some serious thread necromancy that has a few good points on taxes.

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/99101-banking-service-charge.html

I for one will keep no gold in the bank if there is a script written to auto deduct. It can be spread out among chests without fear of losing it in one of those mysterious gold disappearances. I work too darn hold to scrape my gold together. I think we have plenty of gold sinks with the temples, GM plots, and donation centers.

If you have auto taxes on property and have people not logging on to pay, or not having enough to pay in their bank account, then we will have the following:

1. Repossessions tying up tons of administrator time and resources.

2. GM's having to sort out grievances and disputes

2. Angry players.

In short, although at face value taxes seem like a good and reliable way of acting as a gold sink, the reality when you look at the cost benefit analysis is that they are actually far more skewed towards causing more of a pain. I would view them more as amputating a limb to cure a headache.

This is just my 2 cents. I'm sure others will disagree.

I remember there was another thread 3 or 4 years ago about property taxes as well, will have to dig it up.

[Hellblazer]

In short, although at face value taxes seem like a good and reliable way of acting as a gold sink, the reality when you look at the cost benefit analysis is that they are actually far more skewed towards causing more of a pain. I would view them more as amputating a limb to cure a headache.

This is just my 2 cents. I'm sure others will disagree. .

Thanks for the comments. And I love that analogy.

But yeah, there is nothing that will be always liked, somethings has to be done sometime that is not the most pleasing to all, but that serves a purpose. And unfortunately from the number of times I'm hearing that there is too much gold in the banks etc, it seems that what's in place is not sufficient, so I thought of a new way to help that.

Of course if a player doesn't log on in a long period of time, well that's rl and partly players fault, so nothing to blame the team about with. And once you reach 999 true, the system can't take anything away anymore.

Valid point about the house, but it serves an other and better purpose. It puts back houses on the market, something that is not happening often enough in my eyes.

I for one will keep no gold in the bank if there is a script written to auto deduct. It can be spread out among chests without fear of losing it in one of those mysterious gold disappearances. I work too darn hold to scrape my gold together. I think we have plenty of gold sinks with the temples, GM plots, and donation centers.

well two part for this.

1rst in an rp stand point that is really valid, as being called tax evasion

but as the second point, It was pointed out by the team that beside for guild business purposes (like placing gold for the contracts guilds hands out etc) this shouldn't be done.

[Ravemore]

Good points.

I found that additional tax thread too.

http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/111054-rent-player-housing-v3.html

[Gulnyr]

• What does this fix?
• Yes, "there would be less gold," but what does that fix?  What, specifically, does that make better?
• Since roleplaying sense is a stated virtue of the idea, how do Chaotic characters properly roleplay avoiding the tax, which makes perfect RP sense?
• If it is an automatic script, see, it is forced, which is poor implementation.
• What is to keep people from storing gold in chests rather than the bank, thus avoiding the tax?
• Yes, that is a potential answer for the previous question, but it just turns the whole thing into a tax on the willing, really, which doesn't really fix anything.
• A ten percent tax may be brilliant for characters with millions of True, but there are plenty of poor characters out there who would suffer from that.
• Unexpected example: Jennara has about six thousand True.  Losing six hundred of that a month from now would be a pretty serious blow since she might only gather a couple hundred or so over that amount of time.  And that's that much less I can donate, which is a great money sink.
• Despite being an advocate for taxes in the past, I can't support it alone.  If there were an overhaul of the economy in general, then I could probably get behind taxes.  Yes, that opinion has changed over time as the nature of the experience here has changed.  Since an economy overhaul isn't going to happen, it's probably most important to point out that...
• Taxes aren't fun. Sad but true.
  
  • Considering the desire to attract new players, putting in what could be seen as unavoidable pickpocketing of large sums seems the wrong way to go.
  • In the MMO, with a better economy chugging away, a tax system could be pretty cool.  Maybe.  Some people would still complain.

[Hellblazer]

Just about the percentage. yes it turns out to a 10% tax, but once you reach a minimum it should stop, just to make sure a char still has some gold to start off again, if he was gone for an extended period of time.

[Link092]

yeah... but I play casually. Heck, I disappeared for almost half a year for college... I'd be ticked if I came back and the 15,000 True I spent over 3 months earning with relatively low lvl characters on my free time in an unforgiving PW that is rather spare when it comes to making true magically appear out of a dead corpse.

just sayin'.

[Dorganath]

Of course if a player doesn't log on in a long period of time, well that's rl and partly players fault, so nothing to blame the team about with. And once you reach 999 true, the system can't take anything away anymore.

Fault?  That's rather harsh, don't you think?  There are players, myself included, who simply have little desire and less time to go in search of the Almighty True. Not everyone has hours upon hours to play each week much less every day as some of our players seem to manage.  I guarantee that there are players here who don't manage to log in over the course of a month as much as some people do in under a week. That's no one's "fault", its just the reality of life, jobs, kids, obligations and any number of reasonable and more important factors than how much time they spend in game bashing their way to riches. We should not penalize anyone because they have more important things to do than to log in and bash for gold and treasure on a regular basis.

I fully understand the point you're trying to make, but any time-based system is going to hurt the casual player much, much more than it will hurt those who have hundreds of thousands to millions of True in the bank.  Any meaningful drain on gold has got to be due to use, not time, or all you'll be left with is a group of greedy power-gamers looking to stay ahead of the system.

A far simpler and more meaningful solution is to limit the influx of gold by reducing gold drops on the top two tiers, which is something I can do while the server is running. This doesn't hurt the casual player, doesn't hurt the new character and slows the accumulation of gold for the upper challenge levels.

[Hellblazer]

I agree. I guess I should have explained that fault thing to those who put little time by choice. Casual players due to Rl are always impacted in any kind of ways. I don't take the casual players who only play when they feel like it into that bracket.

A far simpler and more meaningful solution is to limit the influx of gold by reducing gold drops on the top two tiers, which is something I can do while the server is running. This doesn't hurt the casual player, doesn't hurt the new character and slows the accumulation of gold for the upper challenge levels.

That is a good solution also.

[Link092]

you should consider that by not considering the casual player in that bracket, your excluding the fact that it would take lotsa programing/fiddling to exclude the casual player, AND the problems that arise when defining who is casual and dealing with those people who try to avoid that "bracket".

[Link092]

Why am I even awake? I should be sleeping...

[Hellblazer]

What I mean to write, if I get it right, is that by their own fault I mean those who decides not to play because they don't feel like it, or they got bored of the game, or what ever other reason that has nothing to do with RL. That's what a casual player is to me. When you are hit by RL.. well that's nothing in your control. You can't blame the team or anyone else but yourself, if you simply decide not to play because you don't feel like it, you know what I mean?

[Dorganath]

I agree. I guess I should have explained that fault thing to those who put little time by choice. Casual players due to Rl are always impacted in any kind of ways. I don't take the casual players who only play when they feel like it into that bracket.

Problem is, any automatic script will hit them and without consideration.  Who's do say how much is the "minimum" for casual players before they don't get taxed? I had the same 20K (OK, a little less) in my main character's account for longer than some players have been here, and no, that's not an exaggeration.  There was some flux up and down, but not much. Even if I had time to play frequently, I strongly doubt I'd be going out collecting gold off of corpses with any regularity.  That's my play style and my choice, and I shouldn't be "taxed" because of it. I know there's lots of other people here who agree with this sentiment.

This hurts GMs as well, who sacrifice their play time to run quests for the enjoyment of others.

[Gulnyr]

Does anyone know what taxes and/or smaller high-end drops would fix?  What would be made better?  I'm truly clueless and very curious, which is why it was my first question above.

Feel free to ignore my curiosity.  It just seems an important point somehow.  *shrug*

[Chongo]

Quit once you've won.  That'll fix it.  Problem is probably figuring out too late that you've won.  And that you're depleting the world like an oversized youtube cat latched onto matrix-esque energy source.

Doesn't matter.  The trees will take over soon.  And when they do, what can you do that supplies real sustenance?

Yeah... put that in your multiple variants of living pipe and smoke it.

The world needs more druids.

I live near yellowstone and I watched the happening.  I know.

[Hellblazer]

Riiiight..... the point in your post being?

[Link092]

Quit once you've won.  That'll fix it.  Problem is probably figuring out too late that you've won.  And that you're depleting the world like an oversized youtube cat latched onto matrix-esque energy source.

Doesn't matter.  The trees will take over soon.  And when they do, what can you do that supplies real sustenance?

Yeah... put that in your multiple variants of living pipe and smoke it.

The world needs more druids.

I live near yellowstone and I watched the happening.  I know.

this made me LOL.

[Link092]

Does anyone know what taxes and/or smaller high-end drops would fix?  What would be made better?  I'm truly clueless and very curious, which is why it was my first question above.

Feel free to ignore my curiosity.  It just seems an important point somehow.  *shrug*

well, it would fix the jealousy that the poorer characters have because their puny 45 true isn't affect by the taxes while so-and-so's - *enter Dr.Evil voice* one MILLION DOLLARS! er, TRUE! - is affected.


other then that, I'm guessing the idea is to add to realism

[Dorganath]

What I mean to write, if I get it right, is that by their own fault I mean those who decides not to play because they don't feel like it, or they got bored of the game, or what ever other reason that has nothing to do with RL. That's what a casual player is to me. When you are hit by RL.. well that's nothing in your control. You can't blame the team or anyone else but yourself, if you simply decide not to play because you don't feel like it, you know what I mean?

So if someone decides to quit playing for a while because of something significant and impacting in their life, they should only "blame" themselves for the loss of their virtual assets?

Or if someone's PC dies (hard drive failure, power supply failure, motherboard failure, lightning strike, etc), then they're somehow to blame?

Sometimes not playing is not a choice; it's a necessity or a consequence of life. Sometimes people can give warning, sometimes they can't. I would hope that if real tragedy struck any member of this community that the amount of play time they need to have in order to keep what they have would be the absolute last thing on their minds.

[Ravemore]

LOL... Nice.

I live near yellowstone and I watched the happening.  I know.