Suggestion.. Start new characters at a level slightly higher than 1.

[G.Giant]

I'm giving Layonara another go, mostly because your forums make it seem like a really great community.  

However, and I hope you take this in the spirit that it's intended, I don't think you're really set up for new characters to join.  The model seems to be for newbies to beg for help from established players (which I don't really enjoy doing, especially in an OOC fashion) or for you to start forming parties from the beginning, ideally with people who know the world and are making alts and know all the tricks-- unfortunately there aren't enough low levels around for this to be viable either.  As far as I can tell, I'm looking at a lot of hours doing the solo grind.

I would like to suggest that in the absence of a steady stream of low level players to party up with- and, unless I'm completely missing something, a definite lack of beginner quests- new characters should start at a higher level.  This is hardly anything radical, as it's done on plenty of other servers as well as in PnP games.  

From what I can tell, I think something like 4 to 6 might be the magic number.  That still means you'll have plenty of work to do and still be far behind the just about everyone else on the server, BUT it will also mean you can have some survivability in exploring the world, and also speed the pace to when you can start joining (and being somewhat effective in) parties and quests.  

I think this also might encourage established players to create an "alt" more often, since it will take a chunk out of the low-level grind.

[darkstorme]

Welcome back!  It is a great community.  That being said, I think it would be difficult to disagree with the remainder of your post any more than I already do.

A few things.  First, it is dead easy to get to level six.  I (as anyone can tell you) am probably the slowest-leveling player in Layonaran history, and I can get a character to level six in a week, two at the outside, without "begging for help" from anyone.  It's nice to RP with others, and the vast majority of players would be only too pleased to help a new character out, either by bringing in their low-level alts or having their primary character show the new face in town around - but even soloing, a simple Fighter could be at level 6 in a week.  (I don't play simple fighters, hence my stipulation of "two at the outside". )

Second, the first three levels are essentially a free ride.  There is, effectively, no punishment for death.  These levels give new players a chance to explore a little around the starting areas, to take a few risks, and get a sense for what their character is like.

Third, there are beginner quests.  Both scripted and GM-run.  The problem is not so much that we don't want to run them, as people consistently fail to show up for them.  Rest assured, if you make it clear that you'd like to see more low-level quests, they will appear.

Finally, I would be hard-pressed to name more than a handful of players who don't have an alt.  Or two or three.  Encouraging the creation of alts is not really necessary - the vast majority of players are inclined to make them regardless of the "low-level grind" (which, as I indicated several paragraphs ago, is a misnomer).

Again, welcome back, and have fun!

[Hellblazer]

JUst a pointer, by doing the initial jobs that you will find scattered around the towns. Hempstead, Vehl, Krandor. You can easily get to level 6 in 2 days with a minimum of pain and maybe one other player to help out.... after that? well time to get some people to help. I do agree that the kobold quest capt Trent gives is truly not intended as a starter quest. I remember a while back, 3 level 5 trying to do it, all dying.

There is how ever a good amount of new characters as I have seen. I personally have a monk that is level 8, there are others. It depends on what time you play.

[mixafix]

I agree it is very easy to get to Lvl 6 in minimum time if that is the desire. But RP and meetimg other low character sis by far more fun and may need forum messages etc. IE plenty willing but getting some quality time may require some coordination, thats just a realitiy of numbers playing at any given time.
 
 There have been and will continue to be short collection of events aimed at getting characters from 1-6 as part of a new group for those that wish to achieve this a different way. A Great fun way to start and worth looking out for.
 
 Essentially this means a number of characters starting at the same time - no advantages for anyone who knows their way around, no big brother leading you by the hand. ( I mention this only as you suggested this was not the way you wished to start - it may of course suit some)

[G.Giant]

I do want to quickly point out  (with a sincere thanks to those who offered) that I'm not fishing for help or advice here, so take me out of the equation.

[miltonyorkcastle]

However, and I hope you take this in the spirit that it's intended, I don't think you're really set up for new characters to join.

I actually agree with this sentiment.

I'm not sure, however, that starting folks off at a higher level would solve that problem. As Darkstorme pointed out, the experience points required to get to sixth level can all be found within some very doable static NPC quests and a little bit of group adventuring, and can be gained relatively quickly if one has the mind and time to do so.

However, I think the issue that stands out most, which really has little to do with experience points or levels (which is why I don't think starting folks off at a higher level will get us what we're after), has to do with the NWN PW for Layo being ill-equipped to get starting players immersed into the world and connected with other players without some significant initiative on their part, such as sending tells to people they've never interacted with before. And let's face it, why would someone want to put forth a potentially  uncomfortable initiative when he/she has not already invested in the world?

I think what we want to look for are new ways to make it easier for new players to invest themselves in the world while at the same time teaching and holding true to the "spirit of Layonara," which is very much about interaction, roleplay, immersion, community, and fun. I have some ideas about this, and in fact the Team is in the process of discussing this situation as well as a host of others that deal with the quality of both player and GM experience in Layo.

[davidhoff]

I remember when I first joined.  It was my first ever online experience for nwn and I had no idea what to expect or how I would ever meet other players.  It was scarry but exciting at the same time.  I think I asked Osxmallard a thousand questions in his snake-form in the Eye of the Storm.  It was much easier for me though, because Vrebel and I started together and we could talk things out and fight together.

It would have helped me a little if I was "spoon-fed" a bit of direction in the beginning.  Kind of like an information center for when you get in a new town.  Here are where the merchants are and here is a list of current jobs for hire and where to find the employers.  This would have "primed the pump" so to speak.  Something to kill to get me bloody and money right away.

[darkstorme]

*ahem*  Osxmallard in his snake form?

[davidhoff]

*coughs* Mind you I was just starting and trying to take it all in, but I'm pretty sure it was Osxmallard in what appeared to be a Large Blue Snake avatar form?  That's just how I remember it; I'll ask Willhoff and see if he can confirm or not...

[EdTheKet]

However, I think the issue that stands out most, which really has little to do with experience points or levels (which is why I don't think starting folks off at a higher level will get us what we're after), has to do with the NWN PW for Layo being ill-equipped to get starting players immersed into the world and connected with other players without some significant initiative on their part, such as sending tells to people they've never interacted with before. And let's face it, why would someone want to put forth a potentially uncomfortable initiative when he/she has not already invested in the world?
 
I think what we want to look for are new ways to make it easier for new players to invest themselves in the world while at the same time teaching and holding true to the "spirit of Layonara," which is very much about interaction, roleplay, immersion, community, and fun.

I agree.

Over the years we've done (on a highly irregular basis) sessions called RP101. They were not only about how to RP though, but also to give new people a good start and make them get to know people in an OOC setting.

I think it would be a good idea to re-start those.

[davidhoff]

Ok Ok *looks very embarrassed* I spoke to Willhoff and I made a boo-boo!

The Avatar's name was "Ouroboros" and it is the avatar of Darkstorme not Osxmallard.  I must have jumped to the wrong conclusion by just looking at the first letter of the name.

Thank you Darkstorme for answering all of our questions back then.  It really helped us to know that there was someone out there in "on-line" land that was available to help walk us through.

*sneaks off to some dark place to hide*

[Asmodean]

Snakes like dark hiding places...  BEWARE

[G.Giant]

I agree.

Over the years we've done (on a highly irregular basis) sessions called RP101. They were not only about how to RP though, but also to give new people a good start and make them get to know people in an OOC setting.

I think it would be a good idea to re-start those.

Perhaps.  I think most people still playing NWN in 2010 are veterans of other servers, have a PnP background or both.  I'm sure your house style is a little different (as all are) but I don't think a lot of newbies will end up here (and choose a password protected server, and apply through your process) without any idea how to role-play a character.

But what I am getting the sense of- which I guess I missed before- is that you guys want to get to know the player first, and the character second.  That aspect is a little new to me, as I'm used to (and kind of prefer, honestly) most interaction to be between characters and in character, including such things as asking for directions.  

And, as friendly as everyone else- and again, thanks to all who have sent messages, etc. with instructions- I don't like the idea of asking established players to drop what they're doing and show me around.  That doesn't mean I don't want to RP, far from it, but I'd rather be doing so from a different angle than "I'm new and I need help."  

It also takes away the thrill of discovery, honestly.  Finding out through tells and PMs that there's some quests out this way because that's where the starting area was before, and there's some signs you can touch that are (basically) giving me the free XP I was suggesting you grant at creation...  That's why I'm kind of put off by the "ask for help" thing, as I'd rather my chars. first impression not be begging strangers for aid, and wish my OOC impression was as an RPer and not a clueless guy unsure what to do next.  Maybe it's the old trope about men not asking for driving directions, which I'm probably guilty of as well.

This is all just my opinion, and I thought I'd express it as I don't sense that you have a lot of outsiders going through the new player experience.

[miltonyorkcastle]

But what I am getting the sense of- which I guess I missed before- is that you guys want to get to know the player first, and the character second.

That is a very interesting way of putting it, and I'm not sure if it's ever been explained quite like that, but the more I think about it, the more fitting your statement becomes with regard to how things have been run for, well, since I've been here at least. The current system is designed to look for and pull in certain kind of player (as opposed to characters), and deter other players that might not be interested in the way things work here before they even get going. That "certain kind of player" being someone interested in spending more than a few days reading over the PW material, developing a character, and getting to know the community before they ever even get going IG. Now, obviously, a great many of the folks here don't fit that exact mold, but those that do are often drawn to Layo. I myself played Layo for maybe four or five months before even realizing it had permadeath, heh, so I definitely didn't fit that mold at the time I started here. But I moved toward that style the longer I stayed, as I became invested in the world.

Like you said, you want to explore and learn that sort of thing IG, and not by haphazardly bouncing around from death to death, by reading fourty pages of guides and rules, or by being forced to ask a veteran player to show/tell you where everything is. That is exactly the sort of thing to which I was referring in my previous post. What I'm envisioning is a series of NPC starter quests that are related, and not only designed to help a new character level, but would also teach the player about the world and how to get involved in a mix of IC and OOC information. The series would have multiple routes one could go to reach an end, depending on what skills are used and decisions made, but in the process the player would learn about CDQs, local lore/factions, some of the game systems (like pipe smoking or horses), and perhaps even some of the player rules. Veteran players likely wouldn't want to go through the scenario with their alt characters despite different possible endings, but for new players, it would serve as both a tutorial on the PW mechanics and a tutorial on the unique play style of Layonara. Basically, it would be almost everything you might find in the "Fast Track for New Players" on LORE, but IG, and you learn it as you play rather than having to read a book before even starting (though the book would be there for those who wanted it!).

Of course all this would require what? A team to develop the whole gig and then build it. Right now, we're admittedly short on manpower because we're splitting our attention between NWN and the MMO, with most of the development manpower devoted to the latter. Also, we'd likely need to readjust how we currently handle character subs, but I'll leave that topic to another.